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I don't know if there is a God, but for a long time, I have felt that if God truly exists, that religion is his enemy. I say this because of the centuries of corruption, pettiness, bias, discrimination, deceit, abuse, and hypocrisy of religion.

I want to believe in God. I wonder if God is simply a higher spirit? I wonder God is what we sometimes call Mother Earth? I wonder if God exists at all?

I am not saying God does not exist, but if he didn't, I think man needed to create him in order to deal w/his own mortality. The thought of becoming dust and remaining that way for eternity is not exactly appealing.

I would love to delve deeper into the philosophy of God and the afterlife, but I want to give a few thoughts on religion.

I'm a football and basketball guy, so here is my scouting report.

Positives:

--Fellowship is very important to many folks. No better place to practice fellowship than a church.

--Charitable gifts are often made through churches.

--Members feel a sense of belonging and that is very important to many people.

--There is strength in numbers.

--It's cool to wear your Sunday best when attending a religious celebration.

Negatives:

--Denominations tend to be discrimatory. I hear things like only Baptists are going to heaven. LOL.........okay.

--Sexual abuse has been a big problem in certain religious groups.

--Women are often treated as second class citizens in certain religious groups.

--Following the written words of "men" is not really the best practice.

--Religious people are often the most judgemental folks on the planet. I don't think God would like that and if he did, I don't care all that much for him.

Some Big Time Problems I Have with Religion:

--A dude can have cancer and have a huge tumor in his body. They remove the tumor and someone says "Thank God for that." I say: "What? Why did God give him the tumor in the first place?" [Side note: I really don't blame God for the dude getting a tumor [yeah, I had one] but I sure as hell don't thank God for saving me. I thank the doctors and nurses who operated on me.]

--Why is never God's fault when something awful happens, but he is praised when something good happens?

--Why do most religious people seem to be less accepting of minorities and people and gays/lesbians? [not sure those are the up-to-date labels, but I'm old, so excuse me.]

--Why are so many religious people okay w/discriminating against Hispanics who enter this country in search of better opportunities?

Conclusion:

There were periods of my life where I embraced religion. I went to church, bible study, read the bible, etc. But, I never could escape the feeling that I was sitting among a bunch of hypocrites when I was in church. They spoke of their good deeds, chanted "Glory be to God," and meanwhile were some of the most judgemental, biased folks I have ever encountered.

Summary:

I am not a big fan of religion.

Many Christians fall short of what Christ wants us to be.... we're human... we fall into sin...

I agree too many of us are judgemental which turns people away.... too many leaders in the Catholic Church (and other religions) have been found to Ben child molestors...

I completely believe that Christ is my lord and savior... I'm too weak to get through this world without God.... I can't believe that the Big Bang wasn't orchestrated by a higher being and that for all the things that had to go right for a baby to be born thwt it wasn't a miracle every time a baby is born...

I have been to many churches though that I completely disagree with... do I think I need to go to church to have a relationship with God? No... but I do believe we were meant to have fellowship and relationships with others which is why I enjoy going to church and having my small group...

I'm agnostic, and my beef has always been with the religion as a system, not the people who are spiritual.

think about how many religions there have been throughout human history. but yea, <insert religion> is the only right one to believe in. sure.

ill leave that part at that.

now for religion as a way to explain the afterlife, i've always loved the beliefs of different religions to explain the afterlife, especially the concept of heaven and hell. or in some cases, reincarnation.

sure, the atheist believe that people just die, and nothing happens except the body decaying in a piece of wood underground, despite that fact that its a highly inefficient use of resources (including land). dead bodies should either be donated to science or cremated.

but logical boring stuff. i love the beliefs about burning in a lake of fire because you masturbated one too many times. or how a serial killer can still go to heaven because all he has to do is ask for forgiveness and believe in the lord, and all is forgiven. like a dry-erase board.

in all seriousness, i do find some of the concepts quite interesting. for example, in Hinduism, they have either 4-28 levels of hells, depending on which text you use. such badass stuff. its like the more crazy sins you did, the worse your punishment is. all these different hells are still based around you eventually being reincarnated.

all but one: *thunder strike* the Kakola. this is where the serious crazies go, because who they were so awful, they will not be reincarnated.

Kakola sounds like a really cool Metal band name, by the way.

anyways, one thing i've always noticed about the mainstream religions is that.....well, you have to be scared of God and punishment all the time. other than Buddhism -which i guess is more a way of life than a religion - most of the big religions need you to pretty much crap your pants in fear in order to be a true believer.

its like you always gotta look over your shoulder, cause God saw you looking at that chick with the thick thighs just a liiiiitle bit too long. you better ask for forgiveness, or thats a mark on your permanent record.

thats why i've always had a huge turnoff to religion. its man made BS to me. they use religion just like they use everything else:

bow to authority, and you better not question it, or you will be punished.

I disagree with you about the need to fear God...for me Christianity is more about acknowledging that god is there and that Jesus is my savior Ian s that I need to have a relationship with him.... it's more about his love and sacrifice for me than for fear...

The Bible actually says fear not more than any other phrase... I get it though... the old testement God was fairly vengeful.... but I've never feared god or his punishment...I've felt his love and have felt hope thwt he'll lead me in the right direction... bad [censored] still happens to me but I still turn toward s his comfort as I would my own earthly father...

That was a nice and thoughtful reply, jay.

I kinda feel bad because I don't want to slam religious people like yourself.

To clarify, I understand what you are saying and I think there is nothing at all wrong w/your beliefs.

i understand your point of view.

let me ask you this. if you had no relationship with god or jesus, or acknowledge he exist, what do you think would happen to you after you die?

would you say the thought of going to hell is part of many motivating factors for you to continue believing?

and then you mentioned the old testament god. i always find it odd how one dude dies, and then now we got the new testament.

it reminds me of when a guy who created the company either retires or dies, and then the board of directors go "aight he's out, lets revise the rules now".

I was raised Catholic. I don't go to church. I do read scripture from time to time when life bothers me.

I believe in God. I know quite factually that he exists because I have seen proof of him in my life. Actual, non-deniable, without a doubt proof. No, don't ask me about it because it's personal.

I have other opinions. But they aren't mine to give.

Although I don't think God cares about religions either. Just that you are a good person.

Dude, I could be a Buddhist. I'm not sure if I would want the fat stomach, but the rest of it looks cool. LOL

But, yeah man, I'm not into this God who is so furious. Flooding the earth. Wiping it clean because he doesn't agree w/the lifestyle. Sounds rather wicked to me.

I wrote a story while I was in college and it was about Jehovah and Satan and the battle they had. It was a satire, so relax zealots.........but in this allegory/satire, Satan was just a "dude" who opposed the almighty Jehovah due to the latter's sinister ways. Jehovah was more powerful and defeated Satan in an epic battle and cast him down onto planet Earth. The real villain was Jehovah because he was the one who created massive floods, burned cities, slayed entire groups of people, demanded total obedience, etc and Satan was just some poor soul who was not even close to our depiction of him, but the father of mankind. And we have been facing Jehovah's wrath and punishment ever since....you know.........kinda like how Hispanic children are now being punished because they dare cross the borders of the land we stole from them.

But relax, y'all............it was just a satirical allegory.

Karma is real. If you pay attention in life, then you know that to be true.

All religions have some version of karma.

in the afterlife, what if there is a massive conflict that affects nature here on earth?

its not like any of us can credibly rule it out. and in a spiritual sense, it would certainly be plausible.

I believe in God, but not a big fan of religion.

As my dad said, There are thousands of various religions in the world. If there is only one path or one religion, there are going to be a lot of unhappy people on judgement day.

So I am choosing not to choose..

No worries... when it comes to religion or spirituality I can only speak for myself... I never pretend that I can change someone's beliefs... I only speak about what I believe..

I also forgot to add that I personally have no idea if Christianity is the only way to heaven... while that's what I've been taught growing up I find it hard to believe that Christianity is the only way to heaven.... and there are too many similarities between the major religions... so maybe Islam, Christianity, etc all worship the same god but in different ways... I hope I'm right in my beliefs but truly I can't be sure.... that's why they call it faith...

You are coming across as a very reasonable man, jay.

Bro, I have this huge speech on faith and belief and hope. I used to use it all the time in education. All of those things are so powerful and they shaped history!

I get it.

And I totally get what you are saying. I admire you for your faith while still maintaining an open-minded philosophy.

I agree. I think if there is a God..........religion is his enemy on a certain level.

Not to be offensive, but your "scouting report" has nothing do with God.

The purpose of religion is a vehicle for developing a relationship with God.

It has nothing to do with anything of the things you mentioned.

Like you totally left out God of your scouting report.

I dunno... do I fear going to hell... sure... do I believe I'm a sinner, I mess up, Andy I'm blessed that's jesus sascrificed himself so I could go to heaven... absolutely... though it doesn't give me free reign to continue sinning ( though I mess up daily)

What do I think would happen to me if I didn't believe in god? I dunno... my sister is a pagen and believes that we are reincarnated.... maybe that's right.... I have friends who are atheists and believe we die and nothing happens... maybe that's right... I just have a hard time believe that this world is it.... universe is too big.... I know we have a soul and I can't image that nothing happens with that soul after we die... could I be wrong?? Absolutely... but that's why it's called faith..

I've spent a lot of time trying to figure out old testement vs new testement... I still don't think I have it 100%... but essentially Jesus came and was the fulfillment of the promise of The olde testement... he died to coverage my sins... he fulfilled the prophecies from the old testement... I'm with you though... I still have questions about God especially when looking at the god of the old testement...

I joke that I have a running list of questions I have for god... why he allows things to happen like miscarriage and heartache.... though I'm Christian and fully believe in Jesus... doesn't mean I don't question thins

And as I said in another post... when it comes to my faith I only talk about my faith... will never question or put down someone else's... or at least will try to not come across as I'm putting them down... my sister is a pagen... I have friends who are athethts... friends who are muslims,.. friends who are Jewish.... friend should who are straight... gay... black.. white... for me it comes down to love... Jesus calls me to love... he doesnt say love whites... he doesn't say love republicans... he says love all....

So there are times I completely disagree with someone (my sister for example) but I'm still called to love heR.... I can love and still disagree and question... when I stop questioning my own beliefs is a day I don't want to encounter... I'm constantly questioning what I believe ... it's how I've grown...

Sorry for the rant... it's been a really tough week emotionally for me and I've had a little too much whiskey tonight...

I appreciate halls posts

Thanks vers....it's unbelievable to me when you look at something like the crusades and see how much fighting and death has happened around religion... like seriously...Catholics and protestants killing each other and they both believe in the same god... unreal....

I'm not completely with you on the religion is determental to god... but I've always been a huge proponent of not hamstring myself into I have to find this type of church.... ive been a member of a Methodist church, nondemonenational, baptiast.... I went to catholic high schools... it's morek about my personal relationship with god and finding a church to Has the same core beliefs as me, worships the way I'm looking for, and I can get connected with service and small group.... I haven't found a church I completely agree with...

That wasn’t a rant. That was a from the heart post. We’re all better because of it.

Thanks swish... truly appreciate you guys...

Eve, perhaps you have a buzz on. Swish said he did. I too, have a bit of a buzz on or I would have never started this thrad...LOL

But look, little sis, I already said I believe in God. I just don't like religion.

I like spaghetti... I can add more than that to this conversation BUT rabbit holes.

Hi. Maybe it's just that I looked at your positives and stopped reading.

The purpose of Religion is to work on your relationship with God and learn how to be a decent person.

It isn't about any of the things you mentioned.

So, now I looked at your negatives, and none of those have to do with God or Religion.

Those points might deal with humans. And human ways. But not what Religion teaches.

It seems like you're confusing Religion with imperfect human behavior, and the results thereof.

You're a good dude, jay.

And I know you know this, but I'm just saying it because you're cool...............but what I think about religion means diddly squat.

I do think that you are a well-grounded individual who also embraces religion while having enoghh where-with-all to question things.

I'd say that is very impressive.

And I admit I am a little bitter. I read all these comments from certain poster about "Thanks to God..." I did not want to poison the GM thread w/my feelings because of his situation and I know he has a strong faith. But man, the dude is suffering. Do we praise God for that?

My dad died at the age of 56 from the same thing. Cancer started in his colon and went to his liver. He was a tough guy and they gave him two weeks. He battled for 21 months. His body whittled away to nothing. Praise God? Get out of my face!!!

And should I praise God for giving my son cancer at age 28? Should I praise God for losing a relative at age 3 months?

And jay, I am not talking to you. Just very frustrated w/that BS.

Completely understand... I do had a [censored] week... mother in law almost died but thankfully had a double bypsas that went well... my wife and I spent two years finding a surrogate to carry our last embryo... everything was going great,,, she was ten weeks pregnant and everything was perfect... then the baby's heart stopped... why does this happen?!? It truly sucks... why is there cancer... why is there hate and early death... I work in health arena and watch kids die... just sucks and questions my faith constantly..

I don't have a good answer... do I think it's gods will?? Hell no... I don't think God wants us to suffer... that wasn't his plan... but he does allow it to happen... and I don't know what will be the end to this story... my wife's and I have had to dela with some crazy tragic infertility issues for seven years... nad it's been unbelievably hard.... but it has allowed us to minster to others.. we s told our story to countless couples who are going through the same thing... maybe that's why god allowed it...

All I know is though I get pissed at God at times... I still love him and praise him... I get just as pissed at people who tell me tragedy is 'gods will' or some crap like that... god didn't want me to lose two daughters... but I know with his love that I'll get through it...

God did not want your dad to suffer and die at 56... nad I have no idea why he would allow that to happen... and again I think it's ok to be pissed with the situation and I yell at god often... I still love him.. I still praise him... but I'm allowed to be pissed off....

Ministering to others is another positive aspect of religion that I didn't mention.

Hang in there, bro. I wish/pray that things work out for you and your wife. You truly seem worthy.

I have no great use for religion. Religion is just the customs we built up about our faith. God's word has little respect of religion or of zealots hell bent on being right so that others can be wrong. If it's not in the Bible then I have no real use for it.

I can't think of any perfect religion.

I have studied all the major religions including the pagan religions. I study the prehistory religions. I can't say I am an expert in everything but I am confident I know quite a bit. Many of them overlap and are very similar and quite possibly different names but the same stories.

I don't believe controls every aspect of our life. He gave us life and set us free to live our own life. We live and die by our own choices and sometimes bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people. Why? Because it's pure chance. Sometimes it's because of the result of our own actions. The Bible tells us how to live our life to enjoy our eternal life after this one is over. The Bible will tell you over and over again that it's not easy to live as a Christian. That it is a long and hard road along a VERY narrow path.

I think we humans tend to have the wrong idea about God. We like to think he is out there and just ready to be our 24/7 Santa Claus and then we like to throw fits when we don't get what we want. The reality is that our purpose in being created is to bring God glory. It's not for God to bring US glory. There are plenty of times he is just gonna say NO. When you resist his will then you lose out like any servant would who fails to obey their Lord.

For FUN,

I will now tell you Jesus was the reincarnation of Budha:

JESUS: "A foolish man, which built his house on sand."
BUDDHA: "Perishable is a city built on sand."
JESUS: "Therefore confess your sins one to another, and pray one for another, that you may be healed."
BUDDHA: "Confess before the world the sins you have committed."
JESUS: "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins."
BUDDHA: "Let all sins that were committed in this world fall on me, that the world may be delivered."
JESUS: "Do to others as you would have them do to you."
BUDDHA: "Consider others as yourself."
JESUS: "If anyone strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also."
BUDDHA: "If anyone should give you a blow with his hand, with a stick, or with a knife, you should abandon all desires and utter no evil words."
JESUS: "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you."
BUDDHA: "Hatreds do not cease in this world by hating, but by love: this is an eternal truth. Overcome anger by love, overcome evil by good."
JESUS: "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you."
BUDDHA: "Let your thoughts of boundless love pervade the whole world."
JESUS: "Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to cast a stone at her."
BUDDHA: "Do not look at the faults of others or what others have done or not done; observe what you yourself have done and have not done."
JESUS: "You father in heaven makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous."
BUDDHA: "The light of the sun and the moon illuminates the whole world, both him who does well and him who does ill, both him who stands high and him who stands low."
JESUS: "If you wish to be perfect, go sell your possessions, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven."
BUDDHA: "The avaricious do not go to heaven, the foolish do not extol charity. The wise one, however, rejoicing in charity, becomes thereby happy in the beyond."

Enjoy your mind blowing up =) Good day!

I read the rest of your post, but could have easily stopped after this line...because it spoke Truth.

To your initial statement, I'll add this-


"Religion is what Man inflicts upon himself, in God's name."
-Clemdawg, 2018

Native American Indians have the Great Spirit. That’s where I’m going when I die. I’m going up to the spirit in the sky.

When you die and they lay you to rest, you’re going to the place that’s the best?

What if when you die you go to the worst, constantly pounded by bratwurst?

I agree with everything you've said here. Except wanting to believe in God. But everything else seems pretty spot on to what I would have said, had I been able to express it.

I believe in god and I believe in organized religion. I believe that organized religion has been corrupted for as long as it has existed but in its purest sense I believe in it. When people are down and out the community should either want to help them based on their contributions or exile them for not contributing. The threat of exile can make even the laziest of us produce.

The government creating social welfare programs has essentially neutered the church’s power in that sense. People don’t need the church because now they pray at the altar of the government. Now with a failsafe people have the luxury of being completely unproductive and to still receive help from their community, which isn’t right in my opinion.

I believe in organizations to help further the cause of advancing your community, in college I noticed the trend and that Jewish people are absolutely excellent at this. They have on campus Jewish community centers, they have Jewish fraternities. In their own communities they have nepotistic practices regarding business. The entire machine is run through the church and it is highly effective.

I believe in God and I believe in the church as a community driver. I don’t believe in the church as the be all end all to save my soul.

This can be a good thing. Especially for the sick and dying.

interesting thread.

I used to think of myself as spiritual - as in I believed in something but not sure exactly what. I've moved more to being agnostic.

I am not at all in favor of organized religions - at all. I think they have wrecked more damage on man throughout hisory than they have done good. jmho. With that said I totally understand how they provide meaning, structure and a purpose to many.

I never would assume to criticize anyone for their own beliefs - though prefer not to have them preached to me. When Jehovah's Witnesses or other religious folk knock on the door - I am never rude but simply state that we have our own beliefs in the household. I'll take the literature. Sometimes I will read it.

While certainly on the extreme of modern day opinion - a brilliant and eloquent British debater called Christopher Hitchens did a series of nationwide organized debates with prominent religious leaders after writing his book "God is Not Great" .... they are well worth the time to listen to. He's consistent and engaging while offering his extreme views out there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCSIjPE2X3Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRsaxXrjk3w

For some they will love his debate with Rev. Sharpton.... there is a ton of Youtube media available if you want to listen.

I would have to say we agree far more than we disagree. Our only real difference is that I'm a firm believer in God and that Jesus Christ is our Savior.

But when it comes to religion we certainly agree. It wasn't so long ago that Christians called Native Americans savages. They wiped out their culture, religion and way of life by taking their children and placing them in "Christian schools".

And that's probably my biggest problem with religion as a whole. We are promised freedom of religion in this country, yet Christians seem to want to make their beliefs into our laws. Forcing Christian beliefs into law only act to discriminate against the beliefs of other religions and people who are not religious at all. While I believe we have the freedom of religion, I also feel we have the freedom FROM religion.

I agree with you SO MUCH about the self righteous, judgemental and sanctimonious way many Christians are. It's certainly not all of them, but yes, it is many of them. They demand that they preach to you, tell you their way is the only way and if you don't believe the way they do you are doomed to hell.

That doesn't sound anything like the Jesus I have come to know in my life.

What I've found in my personal study of the human mind is that any time you gather a large group of people is that at some point they adopt what I call a "gang mentality". They will do, say and follow things they would never do on their own without outside influence and a large group to enforce such beliefs or actions. They surround themselves with like minded people and they each enforce the others into a singular line of thought leaving no room for learning or growth.

I have taken a long look at many religions. Most I find take single passages from different books in the Bible and try to string them together as one story. Well my friend, I can tell you this much, I can take any book and take lines from different chapters in those books and put them together in a way that tells a story that book never intended. lol

I have found that non denominational churches can be a very good thing. For the most part I've found they lean on the positive. In may cases I've experienced they take the positive messages in the Bible and show how you can apply them to your life to help make a positive change to your daily life. Such things as having a good and positive attitude. How being kind to others rewards you even more than it does them.

I don't mean anything I've written here to offend anyone. I know there are many good Christians and good churches out there. I don't mean any of this as a blanket statement about all churches or Christians by any means. It's simply my overview of organized religion as a whole.

I thought opium was the opium of the people??

To me, the very saddest thing on this earth are terminally-ill children.

They’re such incredible little troopers.

At least let them believe that they’re going to a paradise where everything is wonderful and perfect.

And you know what?

They are.

I'm agnostic, and pretty much atheist. I think all religions are BS. There might be a god or gods, but there's too much absolutely immoral things in many holy books to think that any of it is nothing but man's attempt to control a population many years ago. People like to selectively pick out the stuff they like, and disregard anything that even remotely points at hypocrisy, things that are immoral, or makes their god look terrible. I'll never understand how someone can follow them. To each their own...

Follow the golden rule and you'll be a good person and the world would be a much better place.

Interesting thread topic Vers. So far it has been very civil. Not the norm for varied "religion" discussion. I apologize in advance if my writing is all over the place but I think about God a lot and even confuse myself.

I struggle with my faith, meaning personally, not my denomination.

I am the youngest of 9 kids, born and raised Catholic. My mother had 8 other sibs and my dad had 7 sibs. Of the 9 in my family I think maybe 3 attend mass regularly, including me.

First off , I think there has to be a God, or supreme being. I have heard the scientific versions of the earth's existing and I struggle to believe that man and all the animals on our planet just happened or evolved, much less the stars and planets and rocks, trees etc.

My big problem is I just don't feel the way devout faithful people describe themselves, full of joy, happiness from their God. I pray regularly and maybe I am not doing it right. I attend mass regularly, I miss occasionally but I go hoping to someday get it. It does help me to focus and be grateful for my blessings.

I know I don't like literalists, or at least their attitudes about faith. My niece told me I could never go to heaven because I was not dunked in water for my baptism. She mentioned the ancient word in the bible meant to immerse or something like that and not sprinkle water as Catholics do. So I asked her "you're telling me Mother Theresa is going to hell". She relied "yes, she was just a nice old lady". That kind of thinking is so arrogant to me, that you have it all figured out.

Her dad, my brother, an ordained minister with another denomination, had a very painful divorce is also much a literalist. I wanted to ask my niece how her dad could be divorced and remarry without sin when the bible I read is pretty specific about it. Don't get me wrong I am not judging my brother (he is one of the most selfless people I have ever known, he would do anything for anyone) and certainly had a legitimate reason for the divorce, but if you take one thing literally, how can you not take everything literally. To me it seems the differences in religions is what each one tales literally.

My father in law was questioning a God that would allow his wife to suffer a terrible 20 year disease that ravaged her body beginning at about age 50 and she died weighing about 75 pounds. The only answer I could think of was that maybe our time on this world was so short in terms of eternity, that once in heaven the suffering is over forever.

I also wondered if possibly diseases like cancer exist so we have medical study and man can use the brain he gave us to do well. I also wonder if happiness can exist without some sadness/pain. If not, happiness then is just "the way it is".

I have so many things in my head because I really struggle to understand. I plan to remain a Catholic as I try to figure it out. I grew up in a small town that is 75% Catholic and when I went to college and moved to a bigger city I was stunned to learn that people hated Catholics. I work with a Lutheran woman whose father told her of she ever brought home a Catholic to date he would kick her out of the house.

I try to have an open mind. My wife was worried when my son married the daughter of an Episcopal priest and I said of course not. If the world treated people the way she does it would be a much better place.

Posters have mentioned the Golden rule and I think that is awesome, but I really feel if we lived to the prayer of St Frances, the world would be awesome. I also feel if judgmental people would embrace the statement, there but for the grace of God go I, the world would be much better. I certainly don't pretend to be a biblical scholar, but I Guess we all have opinions.

Anyway, sorry to be so long . If I stayed at this for another 3 hours I could still be typing. Thanks again Vers for starting this and others for keeping it civil.

Depends, are they Johnsonville Brats? Only had 'em once, but they were good.