DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Single-payer would tank the US economy

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/n...lumn/862474002/

In the early days of the American automobile industry, consumers could buy a Model T in any color they wanted, so long as it was black. Such will be the "service and selection" to be expected in the United States if a single-payer system, in which the government pays for all medical treatment, is implemented for health care.

A single-payer system will cause the health care sector to implode, with profound implications for the United States and the world's economy.

Health care is the largest component of the American economy, 17.9 percentof gross domestic product. Forcing the health care system in the U.S., the best in the history of the world, to be socialized will have profound implications. The government will immediately be put in a position of having higher expenses and less revenues. With health insurance companies gone, so will the tens of billions in tax dollars paid to local, state and federal government from these entities.

Our government isn't equipped for single-payer

This will most certainly not be compensated for by reduced government spending. Rarely in history has a government program reduced spending, especially in health care.

In addition to wrecking the government budget, a single-payer system would destroy the stock, bond and commercial real estate markets. Insurance firms are major investors in the financial markets. Taking away the insurance companies would eviscerate the financial markets.

The same would happen with salaries for health care professionals such as doctors and nurses. Orthopedic surgeons in Canada, England and France make a fraction of those in America, for example..

Opportunities in health care would be reduced, starting with the educational system. The U.S. has the finest system of higher education in the world. More than half of the top 100 universities in the world are in America. It is the same American dominance for medical device and other health care patents. International universities can't even begin to compete with the best in the U.S. in a holistic approach that encompasses undergraduate education, graduate schools, research facilities and athletics..

Foreign and business leaders from abroad come to the U.S. for medical care. Americans go overseas for cheap health care. Those who can afford it come to the U.S. for the best health care treatment. Which is preferable in medical services: the cheapest or the best? A lesson learned very quickly in life is that generally the best works out to be the least expensive, over the long term.
We don't need single-payer in America

It is because of the superiority of the American health care system that single-payer systems still exist around the world. Without the United States outperforming the rest of the world in research and development, their medical systems would collapse. Single-payer systems around the world can survive only because they benefit from what the health care industry in the U.S. produces.

There is also no need for a single-payer system as the purported 46 million uninsured before Obamacare (also known as the Affordable Care Act) in the U.S. has never held up to research. About 5 million of those are illegal immigrants. Another quarter qualify but can't be bothered to fill out the paperwork. Then there are those who make easily enough to buy health insurance, but prefer to go without it and pay for their medical costs as they arise. Survey after survey reports that at any one time about 80-90 percent of Americans are insured, with the same amount being satisfied with their health care.

Over the last decade, for example, health care and social assistance employment in Iowa has soared from around 145,000 in 2007 to about 185,000 in 2012, according to the 11th edition of Iowa's Workforce and the Economy. Insurance and health care are also growing segments of the state's economy. This would be truncated with a single-payer system. A single-payer system in the United States would reduce the quality of health care for Americans and the quantity of opportunities available for all around the world.

Jonathan Yates, a former University of Iowa adjunct professor, was general counsel for a publicly traded health care firm, and Assistant Washington Counsel for the Health Insurance Association (HIAA). This column first appeared in The Des Moines Register.

You can read diverse opinions from our Board of Contributors and other writers on the Opinion front page, on Twitter @usatodayopinion and in our daily Opinion newsletter. To respond to a column, submit a comment to letters@usatoday.com.

There won’t be anything to tank after Trump’s trade war

There is a study out there funded in part by the Koch brothers (not that they wanted it to turn out this way)that says that after it's all said and done, single payer would save us 2 Trillion over 10 years.

So who do you believe?

All BS. You would be providing the same level of services but negotiating lower cost meds and supplies while eliminating the insurance middle man's profit! Yes more people will get health care, so more nurses, doctors and nurse practitioners will need to be trained. +JOBS

Billing and insurance jobs would be lost. -JOBS

What is going on here is a propaganda attack on this proposed system by those who are afraid they might pay more in taxes to help the poor. Plain and simple. You can not subtract costs from a service being provided and then tell people it would cost more because blah blah... Math doesn't work that way.

Ah, the fear tactic the right keeps using while the rest of the free world has it. lmao

Question.....did you read the article or justvtge headline, cuz you didn’t address much of anything in the article.

My out of pocket max for a given year (deductible,premium and copay) is $1500 a year.tell me again why I want that to change?

I have a friend here in Aurora who was from Canada and she and her husband are sad to be in the US.. They get benefits from his employer but between the deductible and Co-pay, it's killing them. In Canada, they get what they called great care for no out of pocket.. I didn't think that was the case, but apparently it is.

Too many lies being told about singly payer....

They could always leave for the greener pastures if life is killing them here.

And no system is perfect.

What we get shown are the exceptions, not the rule. I'm sure people can find cases where the Canadian system has had problems. Just like our system has.

However, I've spoken to many Canadians and they all seem very happy with their healthcare.

My assertion all along as that we have a system that has a bare minimum standard healthcare for everyone and insurance companies can provide supplemental upgrade policies for those who want an upgrade on services and lower deductibles.

I can't stand the thought that these kingpins are getting rich charging sick people 1000% profit on drugs. If it takes single payer to get rid of that I am all for it despite my general distrust of the govt. being absolutely horrendous at everything.

They can't even properly fund schools I am to believe they can orchestrate nationwide medical? Fantasy land.

That's the great thing about America. When something is wrong, instead of leaving, we fight to change it and make it better.

America, love it or change it.

I read it and addressed it all. Did you not see the first sentence? "All BS." is what I said. I don't feel the need to elaborate further because I've done the homework.

That's cool. My out of pocket max is $8,300 in network, $16,600 out of network. I pay 20% Coinsurance after deductible of $1000 per person is met. I don't have any choice in healthcare as my employer picked out the plan for me. Considering my wife shattered her ankle this winter, and my two twin boys spent 3 weeks in the NICU (Billed to insurance was $112k each), I hit that out of pocket max in June, one month after they were born.

I actually don't think Yates is that far off here. I just think he's trying to make people think our system is good when it is far from such. Going strict single payer and shuttering health insurance companies is not going to be a popular move in several states. I believe it's a big reason Joe Lieberman of CT killed single payer in the ACA, because CT represented at the time a large number of health insurers.

I think if we looked to Germany as a more relevant example we could see something that would work. They have a universal multi-payer system. The big problem for us is the gaps: how do we make sure all US citizens get appropriate health care in this country. I'm far more concerned with the "universal" part than the "single-payer" part. In Germany for instance, the health insurance companies compete now, just not on how much services cost. You can still compete on how fast you pay doctors, or how quickly you process claims. Competition does not always boil down to USD/Deutsche mark in this case. German's can seek care from any doctor whenever they need. It's clear that it works for them, and we should learn what we can.

Assuming our system works when so many Americans file for bankruptcy due to medical bills is such a short sighted position that not even Mr. Magoo would pretend to agree with it.

Because you don't want your health insurance to be ran like automobile insurance for one.

IF THEY DONT LIKE IT HERE, THEY CAN MOVE BACK WITH THEIR MAPLE SYRUP!! MURIKA

My deductible and Copay are nothing..

My premiums are 304.00 per month... roughly 3600.00 a year.

That's Medicare and a supplemental.

I'm guessing you have an employer sponsored plan. But it sounds great

They get a ton of preventative perks too! Healthcare related gyms and trainers, dieticians and healthy eating classes, programs to reduce, manage and treat addictions to alcohol, smoking, and drugs. Their medicine cost much less than ours. All their emergency, urgent care, regular visits are free. Elective services like face lifts are available on the open market (reconstructive surgery is free). Premium services like no wait surgery are also available on the market.

The average time to see a doctor for an emergencies, urgent care, regular appointments is pretty much the same as ours. Scheduled non-life threatening surgeries, seeing specialist, specialized services like prosthetics take a little longer than ours. The overall cost per capita is much less.

You know, no Con has ever taken me up on checking out Chad or the Congo. I always tell them that if you like capitalism so much, then why don't you move to these countries? I never hear a peep back.

I think the best fit for the US would be a one payer system for basic healthcare and preventative medicine that includes mental health treatment. Then you have the free market compete for catastrophic care.

Right now we are so overcharged on healthcare that to me it's criminal. The rest of the world laughs at us while our healthcare robs us blind and they reap cheaper healthcare after we pay for almost ALL of the world's medical research. Also, don't kid yourself in thinking they are researching cures because they are NOT. They are researching treatments they can make money on. Think about the last time you heard a flat out cure being discovered for ANYTHING where they make a lot of money treating it. You haven't and you won't in the current system designed to bleed the sick dry of every dime they have.

You think the majority of conservatives on this board know anything more than passing knowledge of countries in Africa?

I've always liked Ghana but I have never had much interest in Africa because we have few national interest there that I know of. There has been numerous attempts to help out many countries there but it seldom turns out well because what they need in many of those small countries is a strong leadership that forced them to do what is best for their country instead of robbing the people blind. I don't think democracy is the right government for all people of the world. It just seems to be a vicious cycle that repeats itself over and over there.

Even in South Korea, a country I am very fond of, it only gained such success because they had a strong dictator who forced the country to do what was best for the people and then turned it into a democracy when it was ready for it.

It's not a black,white, or other thing. It's a cultural and educational readiness things. You need a general population that truly cares about the country and are decently educated enough to vote intelligently. Even in the USA democracy is starting to fail because people don't care enough about the country and our education levels are falling behind the rest of the world.

But your right Swish many of us don't know. Many of us also don't know about the many countries in Asia either though too. It's not racism its just self centeredness. We only care about ourselves and what has a direct effect on our little worlds. Hell most of us don't even know what's going on in neighboring cities or states much less foreign countries =)

i understand what you're saying.

i didn't mean my post to imply racism. just that most people dont know much about africa, or any other continents for that matter.

im sure you're aware a ton of americans who don't even know european countries and history all that well.

Robbing the people blind is an essential part of capitalism. Unfortunately a lot of Africa's wealth goes straight into the coffers of Europe and America.

j/c:

It's easy to be generous w/taxpayers money when you aren't working.

The article really just states that we can't nationalize health insurance because the insurance companies are too tightly intertwined with the financial network. That's not a reason why we shouldn't nationalize our healthcare. That's not even an argument against seizing private property. That's just the sad state of our world where insurance companies have grown so large that they can infiltrate other financial sectors that have little to do with their primary business model.

My math says that the 17.9% cited means that the health care industry in the U.S. accounts for $3.324 TRILLION per year.

In terms of government dollars, you would deduct taxes taken in on that money (basically one-fifth of our entire nation's annual income) and shift that over to being an expenditure.

There are 141.2 million taxpayers in the US.
This equates to an additional $23,541 in taxes PER PERSON PER YEAR.

Yes, there will be offsets that will change things around a bit, but, holy crap, that is a horrifying number to even contemplate.

Well that's the entire healthcare industry, not just healthcare insurance. But I get your point. However, the article states that the US's healthcare industry is the largest industry in our economy. Why in the world do we want something with an inelastic demand in the hands of private companies? How much overall money could we save if we took out the profit motive? That's before we talk about the benefits of what a national health insurance could provide, reduce costs by a gigantic pool, less administrative jobs, etc., etc. and what national healthcare could provide, less medical school debt, more money for rural hospitals that need the help, and a host of other benefits.

I am not saying you are wrong. It's a civil debate.

I am saying that I'm tired of paying more than my fair share for people who don't want to work.

I am also saying that I sure as hell don't trust the government to not bungle the HC industry.

I do agree that there are many flaws w/the current system and there is indeed corruption. I would never argue w/you about that. I would like to see those things fixed--or improved.

I just think even more corruption and lack of accountability would occur if we trusted the government to run HC. We've all heard the horror stories. $37 for a screw. Almost $8,000 for a toilet.

I'll provide the link for the entire article, but only post an excerpt because the article is long.



Bro, I can tell you first-hand how poorly our schools are run. How spending is corrupt. How we have so many needless positions and perks, yet the teachers and children suffer.

Can you imagine the amount of corruption, lack of accountability, and inferior care of HC should we turn it over to our government?

No thank you!

FYI premiums aren’t a out of pocket expense.

I agree with you about paying your fair share. I love that Trump rolledback the individual mandate. I don't want to pay money to prop up sick people. 1 in every $6 is spent on medicare. I don't want to have to prop that crap up. I take care of myself. I don't get sick. I haven't seen a doctor in years and I'm in great health. I don't want to pay for every sick person who needs medicine, a medical test or a surgery. However, I don't like companies holding healthcare over my head. I don't want to take a paycut so that they can give me health insurance. I want my money and any health insurance thing, I shouldn't have to depend on them to fund it. It's quite frankly a rip off for me.

I agree that there's a lot of fraud and bullcrap corruption in the government. I'm glad that a lot of reporters cover it and it's why we need a free press who can gain access to areas the general public can't see. A free press is the best way to get an educated populous.

However, there's a lot of corruption in private companies because there is exactly zero oversight in those companies. Most of these cases are only found out when the DoJ issues them subpoenas.

https://www.stgeorgeutah.com/news/archiv...are-fraud-bust/

Earlier this month the DoJ subpoenaed 600 people who defrauded the health insurance companies for 2 billion dollars. Even leaving the money stuff alone, and focusing on the morality, look at how there's zero oversight with pharma companies. They self report any abnormalities to the government about large opioid orders, and as a result, they never report anything. West Virginia's Gazette ran a long series of articles about the Opioid problem in West Virginia. They found that every man, woman and child could have 133 pills of some opioid based medicine based on how much was shipped into WV last year. How many other states are seeing obscene orders? How many lives are lost because of this? Who is paying for that? I would like to think the government wouldn't do the same in that situation.

Wouldn't it kinda be like turning all our hospitals into VA hospitals....that would be just greeeeaat......

This works for other countries because they have price caps on Meds and Services and such.

The USA has no such price caps because Big Pharma lines the politician's pockets.

The only way Universal Healthcare will work is if the Govt puts down some hard core price caps and tells the industry to suck it, this is what we are paying.

I'm not sure that will ever happen because Congress are the Healthcare Industry's puppets.

This is also the reason the Republicans refuse to deal with Healthcare, and their only solutions have been to punt it back to the States. Because Big Pharma is pulling the puppet strings and sliding them cash.

jc

A very good video on how healthcare works in other western countries is here:

https://www.pbs.org/video/frontline-sick-around-the-world/

It shows how not all universal health care systems are the same (quite the opposite in fact) and how the roles of doctors and specialists is quite different there than in the US.

The main thing preventing us from improving our system is those corrupt govt officials who want to take bribes and kick backs from Big Pharma. This is a GOP and Democrat problem, and one that we'll need to get new people in Congress who aren't beholden to these people for their livelihood.

Man I'm too old to go anywhere that I might have to run from animals that can kill me. So that takes a ton of places of the list.

If single payer healthcare would bankrupt our economy, then we need to fix our priorities (how our budget is laid out).

No one should be passing around a coffee can at a local bar trying to get some help paying their cancer bills. And the fact that that happens is absolutely ridiculous.

There's many things i don't want to pay for. But, i do believe, that every single American Citizen should be guaranteed healthcare that will not bankrupt them in the event of a devastating illness or condition

Nice rebuttal.

I wish there were more "discussions" like this on the board and less "my way or the highway."

There aren't any easy answers and there are going to be problems no matter what is decided. However, intelligent conversation is essential to progress.

I admit I am not as educated as I should be on the subject. I don't claim to be an expert on such things. I like to read and try and keep an open mind about such important issues.

Very little when you consider that profit will be replaced by corruption, red tape, inefficient running of the system. I can't think of any government program that ever comes in under budget. The price tag will go up and up.

government involvement almost always means inefficiency...