DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Baker Mayfield and Tyrod Taylor

This is actually another reason why I'd rather Mayfield learn for a year before getting out there. Flacco and Roethlisberger are coming to the end of their time, along with a host of other talented division rivals who have made life hell.


In Baltimore you've got Suggs, Flacco, Weddle, Yanda, Carr, McClellan, Crabtree and Smith all on the wrong side of 30, with most being 32 or older.

In Pittsburgh it's Roethlisberger, Foster, Brown and Gilbert all 30 or older, with a further eight players who are currently 29.

In Kentucky, they've got Johnson, Rey, Green and Atkins all at 30.

I think Pittsburgh and Baltimore are the main threats, but they're also the oldest and the most likely to be losing their quarterbacks over the following years.

For me, this is why I don't see a desperate rush to throw Mayfield into the fire. I see an opportunity to proceed with caution knowing that those teams, in one form or another, are due for a serious overhaul or an outright need for rebuilding. While their age will undoubtedly help them out of tricky cap situations, they're also not going to be great destinations without their talent: which at some level will assist in preventing "I want to win" signings of the past.

I like the Browns young talent all growing together on the same page, but I don't see a sense of urgency in getting it done. While the rebuild has undoubtedly been difficult, it has put the Browns in a position in which long-term sustainability is a strong option moving forward.

https://waitingfornextyear.com/2018/05/browns-film-room-qb-baker-mayfields-weaknesses/






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In fairness, though, that's from May - talking about Mayfield in college.

I believe the question asked was about camp, this year.

I figured that people would nitpick this.

I specifically replied to this part of the conversation:



I provided a link for the question. He did not say "recently."

Others did and I did not challenge their replies. I specifically addressed 442's claim that there weren't any and gave a pretty good link to fulfill his request.

I think the entire "camp thing" is a lot of hype. It's easy to throw on time every time when you have no real threat of being sacked or in a real game time situation.

As I've heard veterans say, "Nobody knows how you'll react until the bullets start flying".

I brought up points concerning what we see in training camp verses the regular season in a post above. One point was if you look at pre season last year, we would have been "pre season SB contenders". And we all saw how that worked out when the bullets started flying.

Fair enough.

I don't believe the original query was about college, but about his time in the nfl.

Pit has a good point also.






We'll find out as the season goes along.

I believe we all certainly hope for the best. And I actually don't believe there are hurdles that Baker can't overcome. However I do know that when you have played the game for a long time you develop certain tendencies. Those tendencies take some time to overcome. I don't believe the evidence becomes clear as to whether you have overcome them until you're in a true game time situation. When the adrenaline is pumping and the pressure is on, IMO, only then will you know for sure.

I just wanted to clarify that it doesn't mean that Mayfield isn't overcoming holding onto the ball. To me it just means that the jury isn't in based on training camp or pre season.

For me it just adds to the reasons why I want Mayfield to be given plenty of time before being thrown into the starter role. The longer he works on releasing the ball on time, the more natural it becomes for him. Which in return will make it a more natural reflex to do so.

Rushing him will make it much easier for him to return to old habits. So I believe time invested will be well spent.

Agreed.

I read a tweet where it said Baker was taking sacks. Also, an analyst that interviewed on 92.3 just talked about him taking sacks because he has held onto the ball too long as well. It is to be expected imo since he is such a young qb who is used to holding onto the ball to make plays. For the most part Baker has had an excellent camp.

I'll post a link when (if) they put up the interview.

j/c

I also think there is value to a rookie, even if he has great talent, in watching an experienced QB play under real game conditions with a dedicated mentor. The signing of TT to allow the #1 pick to watch and learn was a good move. But arguably as good a move was signing Stanton as a mentor.

The complexity and deceptiveness of NFL defenses is much greater than college. Factor in the speed of the game, and it is inevitable that the rookie will have opportunities to understand these complexities more quickly on the sidelines with the help of the mentor than if he is in the game having to move on to the next play. Being able to have a period where discussion and advice is immediately available, in my view, is better in the long run than learning everything under fire.

Personally, I'm hoping to start hearing about some struggles.

I'm a little nervous that a kid in his first year, learning his first NFL offense, in his first close-to-live-as-it-gets practices against NFL athletes is not showing enough blemishes.

We can hope he's just doing that good, but it's starting to feel too good to be true.

The original query was about his time as a Brown.

Here it is:

"On the bright side, everything I've seen suggests Mayfield and Ward really do look good and are performing ahead of expectations. Even if it's slightly overzealous, hell, we'll take it."

And then this garbage by Rasta:

"You have missed the ones who were saying he was holding the ball too long then...."

So, if Vers was paying attention, he wouldn't have posted a link referring to Mayfield's time in college. I'm not sure what he was hoping to accomplish.

I'd like to keep the Mayfield bashing relative to things he's actually doing poorly, and the Mayfield praising relative to things he's actually doing well.

I just don't want to see things made up about his time as a Brown. Either way.

And Dustin Fox didn't tweet it? I'm surprised actually

Here is the link...

https://923thefan.radio.com/articles/browns-could-win-seven-games-2018

Thanks. I just listened to it. To paraphrase, he said that Mayfield looked like he was taking too long, resulting in some sacks. Also Bull said the same thing of TT.

So we'll see. I appreciate the link.

Please don't ask for a link again. You did not specify and I even quoted you. You said there weren't any reports. You asked for a link and I provided one. Now, you're going to get huffy? Please!

Btw, I do know a little about football and if you think that it will be easier for a qb to read NFL defenses than college defenses, you are mistaken. The reads actually get harder.

Thus, if a guy struggles w/it in college, he will struggle w/it in the NFL. It doesn't get easier.

With all of that said..........I don't know enough about this aspect of his game. Perhaps the report was bogus. Perhaps he wasn't asked to read coverages much. That could very well be the case since he played in the Big 12. Perhaps he won't hold the ball too long in the NFL I don't know and neither do you.

Perhaps we'll see for ourselves in about a week!

Hard to tell in preseason games because defenses are so vanilla.

I will say that I just came from the Training Camp thread and Jackson praised Baker for improved accuracy and getting rid of it quicker. That's good news!

Baker is saying all the right things. I like his demeanor. He is apparently doing well in TC.

Perhaps there is finally some hope????

That was a nice video. Willie MG is big eh?

Baker seems like a team guy, people are drawn to him.
Tyrod is our quarterback though.

for example:

https://www.dawgsbynature.com/2018/7/30/...owns-camp-day-5

"Baker Mayfield was sharp again on Monday, but he did hold the ball too long a couple times. He also had some confusion on another play in 11-on-11s resulting in a timeout."

But there are other sources... nothing big, but interesting how we all read different things....

1. I don't think the Browns are rushing Baker in any way. Quite the opposite actually.

2. I think every quarterback is different and while yes, it is helpful for anyone to sit and learn, its also helpful that he plays.

I think because we've started a rookie 23 of the past 32 games it has spurned some fans and the groupthink has become start a veteran regardless of how a rookie performs or regardless of what's best for the long term of this franchise.

There's a lot of we HAVE to sit a rookie. People bring up Rodgers, Brees, Palmer and suggest we need to sit Mayfield because of them. None of those quarterbacks went to the playoffs their first year as starter. There is NO magic formula to mould a quarterback. My stance remains the same. I am glad we have Tyrod but he's not the future. And Baker most certainly is and will be ready to start, most experts said pre-draft that Baker was one of the few quarterbacks who could start game 1. Baker obviously isn't as far long as Tyrod, that would be nearly impossible, which is why I believe Hue and co will continue to say hes not ready at this time.

At this point in camp prior to any preseason games I doubt the Seahawks thought Wilson was going to start for them or that Wentz would unseat Bradford. Flynn and Bradford were expected to start. Now I believe Tyrod could be better than either of them, but I wouldn't start him just for the sake of starting him if Mayfield proves to be the better option which I fully expect.

j/c

I look at Sal P as a guy who knows no more about evaluating QBs than does Hue, Dorsey, Haley etc...those guys get paid or fired for getting this right. He simply has an opinion just like any of us.

Secondly...what Sal P doesn't address...is that the whole offense is new (again)...the LT is new...the LG is new...the RT is new...the go-to/bell-cow RB is new...the top two WRs are new...the OC is new...and the HC is essentially new.

They brought in TT with the expectation of the above paragraph. TT is going to start the season even if Baker outshines up TT in camp and pre-season...and that makes perfect sense given our unusual circumstance - that we always seem to be in.

First things first.

If fans continue with the idea that we have a powerful offense, Mayfield will be a wasted pick and will bust soon.

Bring the expectations down and face reality.


Without Gordon our O is pedestrian at best, and even with him its very shaky since we can't ever trust Josh.


Landry is the only "bona fide" real player on O, apart from him all we have is a collection of average players and question marks with potential.

Coleman is a bust, Njoku is still learning how to catch, Hide is a backup RB, Nick Chubb is a rookie.

OL is a big question mark, specially at LT, but overall is the worst OL we have fielded for years.

I don't agree with much of this post unfortunately.

However, if the season goes as you expect then I can't see Hue making it thru. Our team is much improved from last season. Even Dorsey has said the expectations are playoffs. Every player in camp has the attitude that we can get to the playoffs. If not, then what's the point.

Gordon and Landry are not the only offense. You are severely under-rating Duke, who actually still might be the best offensive weapon we have on the roster. Any semblance of a quarterback last season and we win at least 3-4 games.

I really don't care who starts at quarterback because I know our future is very bright with Mayfield. I do think it would far benefit the franchise if he does start now, but that's my opinion. I think we are just "wasting time" starting Tyrod.

Coleman is not a bust, yet. Njoku caught passes last season. And I'm sure your response of "he's a rookie" would be different had we drafted Barkley.

The reality of the situation is that we have a bona fide NFL team with the potential to make the playoffs. There is one thing in my opinion that could steer us off a cliff, but im not going to mention it. Heaven forbid I have an opinion and people here want to chop my head off for it.

If we struggle to the point of having to start Mayfield, I think it will be the proof that I'm right. We are not a playoff team, we are a 1-31 team...

Duke was already here last year...


The O without Gordon isn't that much better, yes we have Landry, but don't have Josh, Hide isn't a bona fide RB, and honestly IMHO not an improvement over last year. Chubb has a lot of question marks due to his injury, and he is a rookie RB.

We have enough talent to win some (like we did last year), depends on the OC, but we are far from being a powerhouse some think we are.

Everything were hearing is the same kind of stuff we heard about Dak/Wentz two years ago and about Watson last year ...

By that i mean your hearing very positive thing about how they progressed .... as to how there picking up the “nuances” (did i spell that right) of the nfl game ... learning the O .. adapting to the speed of the game .. reading D’s ... with Baker Hue said he’s getting rid of the ball quicker, not bailing from the pocket staying in there making the throws and is very accurate ...

Now we have no clue if guys are wide open or he’s throwing into NFL windows .. so we can’t really draw any conclusions form that broad statement about him being accuratte ... BUT the getting rd of the ball quicker and him not bailing out so quick means he’s definetly picking up the O at a very rapid pace ... thats a GREAT THING ....

He’s also not thrown a pick ... again that in and of itself MEANS ALMOST NOTHING ... but I’d rather be hearing that then what were hearing about Mahones and him having more picks than practices ... *LOL* ...

No clue where Baker is compared to them in that regard ... also have no clue if Bakers skills will translate ..

BUT to me what were hearing is exactly what we need to be hearing as far as Baker progressing ... he has a HUGE HILL to climb to beat out TT and i think he has very little to no shot of doing it because right now this franchise NEEDS WINS NOW ... we won’t sacrifice a win today to get Baker experience ...

But thats OK with me ... i would like some wins this year also ... *LOL* ...

This dude is not Manziel, Weeden or McCoy ... who they were and what they did HAS NO BEARING WHAT SO EVER on our Baker ...

AND we’ve never heard “glowing” reports like we have about Baker ...

The thing that sucks IMO Vers ... were not gonna have any definitive answers til the bullets are flying and we may not see him once the bullets start flying ...

In camp and in pre-season games ALL Baker or any rookie QB can prove is they DON’T SUCK and they have a CHANCE TO BE GOOD ...

Cause there’s plenty of GREAT QB’s in TC and pre-season that sucked ass ...

So playing good means very little to predicting future success but playing bad is basically TAPS being played for the death of your NFL career ...

j/c:

Browns GM Dorsey open to extension for Tyrod Taylor

For the first time in multiple eons, the Cleveland Browns have not one, but two players they adore at quarterback.

Rookie Baker Mayfield has impressed the team during training camp, but head coach Hue Jackson remains adamant that veteran Tyrod Taylor, acquired from the Bills in March, will serve as Cleveland's starter.

That aligns with the thinking of general manager John Dorsey, who went so far as to suggest the Browns might even craft an extension for Taylor, who sits in the final year of his contract.

"I just want to see Tyrod do what he's done in the past. He's a natural born leader. He's had an excellent camp so far. I want to see it unfold. There may come a point here where I call his representatives in October and say, 'Let's strike something up,'" Dorsey recently told The Ringer's Kevin Clark.

An extension, though, would carve into the growth of Mayfield, who turns 24 next April. By comparison, Jets rookie Sam Darnold is just 21. Clark asked Dorsey if any sort of long-term pact for Taylor would "imply that Mayfield wasn't pushing him as the starter."

"Nah, let's deal with it when it happens," Dorsey said.

That's fair. Ultimately, this is summertime chatter emanating from a Browns camp that has seen both quarterbacks play well.

Taylor has checked all the boxes -- he's beloved by teammates and coaches -- but a quarterback drafted first overall will simply not be held back. Consider it a major upset if Mayfield goes wire-to-wire holding a clipboard in 2018. If he sits beyond that, it's fair to wonder what the Browns were thinking in picking him.

Cleveland, for the first time in ages, has options at the most important position in sports -- but options require the coaching staff and front office to deftly navigate the careers of two quarterbacks.

Not an easy task, but a welcome one for a Browns team with one win over the past 964 days.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000...or-tyrod-taylor

It’s crazy that even on a one year rental, Dorsey has gone way harder for Tyrod than the bills GM ever did.

It’s got to feel good for Tyrod to finally have an entire organization from the top down behind him.

I know he’s a rental and Baker is the future, but I really hope he has such a great year that he gets a nice contract from whatever team he lands on.

Wow... so when we open against the Steelers there will be only one mark in the victory column over a 1000+ day span. THAT'S scary.

Xactly!

Hes a GREAT GUY ... did a ton in the Buffalo community and some of it most didn’t find out about ..

I would root for him no matter where he was ... cause he’s a GREAT PERSON ... but obviously with him being a Dawg ... i have a wee bit more motivation for him to do good ..

It could be this one.


Yes, we drafted Baker to be our guy. I wanted us to draft him early on, but if TT ends up being the guy, I don't care.

I am not comparing our guys to these guys except in context, but Steve Young sat behind Montana for what, 3-4 years?

Both are HOF QB's.

We don't have to worry about baker until it comes time to ink him again.

Actually, inking TT to an extension if he is playing well increases his value to us. As of now he has no future value other than what he brings this year.

Extend him 3 years with a big signing bonus, which we can afford, keeping it trade friendly.....makes sense to me.

Have two starting quality QBs for the next four years would be a crazy good development. JMHO!

The only reason to extend Tyrod Taylor would be so we can trade him for more in the future. We have the #1 pick on the roster, he's going to play.

And/or if he is comfortable competing for the starting job with a guy who is likely to win it from him, and sooner rather than later.

He's not going to get the kind of salary he is making this year in a long term deal here, or probably anywhere else. He is making a total of $16 million this year, a $10 million salary, and a $6 million roster bonus.

If he wants to sign back on for a "tweener" deal, something between starter and backup ..... or a deal with sweeteners for starts, then perhaps something gets done. But I just can't see him getting anything near his current deal, unless Baker completely flops. (which doesn't seem likely, yet anyway)

If Taylor performs similar to what he has done for the past couple years in 2019, someone will pay him. This is the same league that gave Mike Glennon $18.5M guaranteed, Sam Bradford $15M guaranteed, and many more horrible QB contracts that I don't want to remember (or look up right now).

If it was me in charge, and Taylor plays to his previous standard, then I'd just franchise him.

The way TT was treated/handled in Buffalo is truly mind-boggling. I agree that any 'employee' who feels wanted is more likely to perform-well than one who is not.

Our QB situation right now is looking better than any STR...by far. TT might be our most-popular QB STR.

I agree with what has already been posted that...if he has success and Baker is good-to-go...we sign him to a handsome, trade-friendly contract and move him at our convenience to a team ready for a QB like him.