DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Hue or Hubris, you decide

Ok, I was going to post this in the "Hue, Coach In Name Only" thread but it was closed. The following article is noteworthy in large part because of the writer, Tony Grossi. I'm not a fan of that guy.

I'm aware that I risk pulling a scab off the never-ceasing Hue vs. Anti-Hue controversy. That isn't my intention but I know how these things go around here. In the interest of full disclosure, I support Hue.

One last thing, I thought my "Hue or Hubris" title was very clever, just want to pat myself on the back for that one.
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Hue Jackson can't win in court of public opinion, but he's making all the right moves in critical Browns training camp
1:12 AM ET
Tony Grossi
ESPN Cleveland
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Editor's note: Tony Grossi covers the Cleveland Browns for ESPN 850 WKNR.

Hue Jackson couldn’t win in the fall and winter, and he’s not going to win in August.

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We’re not talking about exhibition victories. We’re talking about winning respect and the benefit of doubt.

Oh, the coach of the Browns has all kinds of support inside the building and the locker room. But everywhere else, it’s been open season on Jackson. And the games aren’t even counting yet.

That’s the burden of 1-31. He carries that record every day.

Every move Jackson has made this summer has been routinely criticized, ridiculed, and excoriated.

Hard Knocks has portrayed Jackson as a coach too easy on his players and overly protective of his turf with his staff.

After Jackson laid into his players for a lackadaisical practice, quarterback Tyrod Taylor whispered to him to just show the video of the lollygaggers in the next morning’s meeting and they will be shamed into never doing it again. The general reaction of that scene: Why couldn’t the head coach think of that?

When Corey Coleman burst into Jackson’s office – Jackson’s greeting was so odd: “What’s up sports fan?” -- and complained about being demoted to second team, Jackson told him to go see offensive coordinator Todd Haley and ask why. Reaction: Why didn’t the head coach tell the first-round pick of 2016 himself what was going on?

Criticism of Jackson abated only briefly when news of losing his mother and brother within two weeks came to light.

But the statue of limitations on human compassion expires when the coach elects to punt on fourth-and-1 from the 49-yard line in the first quarter of the second exhibition game. He was killed for that.

The irony is that Jackson has had one heck of a camp in his third year.

But he can’t win, for all the losing before now.

Consider the major decisions that Jackson has made this summer – or had a big voice in -- that will dictate the course of the Browns’ season.

1. Joel Bitonio moved to left tackle, Austin Corbett to left guard

With Shon Coleman failing to seize the job, and would-be challengers Greg Robinson and Desmond Harrison sidelined a week by injuries, it was Jackson who assertively ordered the major position switch of Bitonio, a borderline Pro Bowl guard for four years, to left tackle.

Just a few days earlier, Bitonio downplayed the possibility of moving to tackle. Line coach Bob Wylie termed it “Plan Z.”

Jackson clearly was peeved with Wylie’s comment and asserted, “I make those decisions. Those are none of our coaches’ decisions. Those are mine.”

Was that bluster? Hardly. Joe Thomas, whose retirement created the huge void at left tackle, told me that Jackson was the only one in the building who consistently championed Bitonio as the best possible successor to Thomas.

The move risked weakening two positions. But it also positioned Corbett, the No. 33 overall pick of the draft, in between seasoned veteran linemen Bitonio and center JC Tretter, which greatly aided Corbett’s transition from college tackle to left guard.

The bottom line is that a Bitonio-Corbett pairing at tackle-guard has proved to be the best possible solution to the Thomas retirement. Making the move quickly rather than waiting until the last minute was a bold, genius stroke by Jackson.

2. Antonio Callaway “disciplined” by playing the whole first preseason game

The rookie receiver violated Jackson’s trust not only by being cited at 3 in the morning for marijuana possession and driving with a suspended license.

The worse crime was never telling the coach or GM about it. The Browns didn’t learn of Callaway’s escapade until informed by this reporter.

Instead of disciplining Callaway by sitting him down in his first NFL preseason game, Jackson decided to play him the whole game. Jackson was derided nationally for sending the wrong message to the team and player.

It proved another smart move.

Callaway struggled early with three dropped passes, and then grinded through the mentally and physically exhausting night and made two spectacular plays in the second half. It was a productive conclusion to a potential major team setback.

Jackson told me Tuesday that it was his toughest decision of training camp.

“Just because here is a young player and I want him to get off to the right start, not the wrong one,” Jackson said. When things happen that way, you have to handle it right for his future and for the organization, as well. I think that we did that.

“I think he is remorseful for what he did. I think that he understands everything that comes with that, and that there is a chance that you cannot be here; that you have to do it right. That is the message that I send to any young player. We will work with you if you will be honest and up front, but we have no tolerance for B.S.”


3. Preventive maintenance

Nothing this summer has brought more derision to Jackson than his policy of giving players days off to prevent soft-tissue injuries.

Jackson was challenged by coaches Todd Haley and Freddie Kitchens, and receiver Jarvis Landry, for promoting a culture of losing rather than a winning one.


It turns out that this Browns camp so far has been devoid of any season-ending injuries, and the soft-tissue ailments that in the past kept players out for weeks at a time have been reduced, if not totally eliminated.

Jackson had to know that he would come off as soft by his approach, but he put his faith in the data collected by the analytics staff – which wasn’t easy for him to do.

4. Corey Coleman traded to Buffalo Bills for a future seventh-round pick

GM John Dorsey was the driving force of this move; he saw Coleman as the whining baby that was portrayed in Episode 2 of Hard Knocks. But Jackson also had turned on Coleman, whom he championed in the 2016 and 2017 seasons.

The trade of Coleman will prove to be a classic addition by subtraction move.

I'm honestly giving Hue solid faith in my mind; he deserves a chance to coach with REAL players and a viable QB/playmakers/assistant coaches


If that doesn't work, then of course we move on

Hard Knocks has given me a look into the mind and work ethic of Hue Jackson. I wasn't one of those that was ready to fire him, but I really didn't have a whole lot of faith either.

The more I look at it, the more I'm convinced that he took the nose dive the last two years more or less on purpose in order to build the roster.

The only thing that makes me think I'm wrong is how do you account for Dorsey being hired? Was that in the plan? How could it have been?

Either way, on paper, Hue has a much improved team. He's got a QB that has actually won games in the NFL...

It looks like he's got receivers that actually catch the ball...(what a novel idea)

He's got Mad Scientists at both Coordinator positions.. He had Williams last year but with a lack of talent, hey, even a mad scientist can only do so much.

So I guess what I'm saying is, let's just let things play out this year to see where they go.

We come out with 6 or more wins, I'd have to say that's decent. Hue keeps his job and we add more pieces next year.

I'm not a big fan of Hue. I was ecstatic when we got him...then the games started. I'll judge him mostly on what happens on gameday.

The things on-which Grossi says Hue is being criticized is silliness in the big picture. I'm not on the team and in the locker room and meetings to get a good take on Hue as a leader.

Even my assertion that Hue should give some first-team reps to Baker is silliness and simply opinion in the big picture. If he "gets better" on gameday and we get wins...nothing else matters.

Good post. I think the team is stable enough that Hue can be judged fairly going forward.

Good article by Grossi.

As others have said, it’s time to see what Hue can do with this roster. I admit to calling for his head during the season, which, in my opinion was valid. However, he is still here, and now he has the lineup to make me change my mind. As a Browns fan, I hope does.

It's hard not to acknowledge that Hue knows how to handle his team after watching the Hard Knock series. He's been very impressive.

Vegas has the Browns over/under at 5.5. I think that is a good number because I've said they should win 5 or 6. Hue has more talent this year, so we'll finally get a good look at whether or not he can coach.

Tip of the hat for the title. Decent read.

When does Grossi stop writing? Seemingly when he runs out of mud. Read it. That is all.

How can one have Hubris when one hasnt won anything yet?

As long as we are making puns. . .

https://www.kveller.com/article/the-bris-ceremony/

No, just, no.

Just a fun fact....in some cultures the family has to eat the ...cut off part. Usually reserved for male elders.

I've said it from the begining that Hue is an awesome coach. He has a ton of respect all around the league. If his peers have respect for him then we should give him a chance to keep proving himself.

For the past two seasons he had to put a college team up against pro teams. Never in the history of football has a roster had so little pro experience and it showed. The fact that we were still in many of the games and that the team NEVER gave up is proof enough we have a good coach.

You can definitely tell that last season wore on him. He started to make more and more desperate attempts to find a win and it really showed he needed an OC. We then went and got one of the best. The fact Hue has give that new OC almost complete control over the offense shows there is not much hubris because you KNOW that hurt him a bit.

I think what some don't realize is that both our DC and our OC are extremely abrasive people with really old school mentality. Hue HAS to assert his authority or they would walk all over him. They are some brutal coaching mofos. Hue is that reasonable mind keeping them in check. Like he said, one hsi main jobs is to make sure those players are actually able to be present and playing the game. The greatest asset any player has is his ability to show up.

What I want to see from Hue is better clock management and time out usage. I want to see the team play to win all game long rather than sitting on short leads.

Every once in a while a magical combination of FO, coaching, and talent comes along that proves to be the beginnings of a dynasty. This could be one of those.

I think Hue is a good HC. He will have to prove it, but I am encouraged that he kept the team together during such epic losing. I think we have two jerks at coordinators, but I think both are very good coaches w/excellent football minds.

I think we have upgraded our talent. I think we have a good FO now. I think this team is on the rise. I hope the Haslams can continue to ignore the haters and stay the course.

I think our future is bright if we stick w/this group.

I might get struck down by lightning for it, but that strikes me as a pretty even handed article from Tony.

He listed both good and bad and showed some restraint on inserting his opinion.

I can't imagine Tony writing any better than that.

Great post. I think you make a lot of good points about Hue. The turnovers with Kizer last year definitely put him in a tough situation as a headcoach. If a guy continuously throws INTs and makes bad reads, I can see going back and forth until someone 'gets it.'



The blueprint is being written as we speak. I'm in full confidence with Hue. I'm in full confidence with Haley and his play calling. I'm half way there with Greg Williams. His play calling irked the heck out of me last year, but so far things look better this preseason (and with a true FS).

King Hue will be just fine with me in a few years after the ... well, u know ...

J/C

I feel a lot better about Hue Jackson this season for two reasons:

The first, as many have mentioned, is Hard Knocks. We've seen some of Hue Jackson that I think many of us wanted to see. We've seen his work ethic. Not that it was questioned, but it does confirm for us the respect he's given. The man is always around, always doing something, and he isn't resting in his pursuit of establishing this team as a winner. I was concerned he might become jaded or frustrated, but in turn it seems he's only doubled down. More importantly, he's done so without overstepping his mark. He's letting his coaches coach. Underrated on Hard Knocks, in my opinion, is how well the Browns staff work together. We've seen Jackson's intensity, something some of us were concerned he lacked. Something that, between Williams and Haley, would make Jackson appear weak. Instead, we've seen Jackson throttle his players. We've seen him drop some colourful language. We've seen him demanding more, and getting a clear response. When Hue talks, the room listen. You can see it in their faces. In their unbroken attention. Hue doesn't have the wild intensity of Williams or Haley, yet he has a sincere intensity that commands respect. Perhaps most importantly, we've seen his control. Which, in my opinion, shatters the illusion of the "Hue, coach in name only" title which carried this conversation last. Hue's players respect him, he's fantastic with communication, and he's got a strong control of what is occurring in the building. Everyone is looking to Hue. He isn't being undermined, but instead legitimately leading. The only disappointment I've had in Hue Jackson came during the Corey Coleman saga. I didn't like seeing Corey enter Jackson's room to, timidly yet still arrogantly, demand an explanation for why he was running second team and why he wasn't being traded. Hue simply told him to talk to Haley about it. I'd have preferred Jackson to drop the hammer: "You're running second team because you're playing like sh.., and we've not traded you because nobody has interested in a guy playing like sh... We didn't put you on second team. Your sh.. play did." Outside of that, he's been excellent, and I feel much better having seen Jackson in action.

The second, is that everything I like about Hue Jackson extends to him as a head coach. I didn't like him as an OC. I thought his play calling was timid and predictable. I thought the plays he ran lacked creativity and hindered the team, and that he made some very questionable decisions. Haley's preseason vanilla offense already looks much more fresh and exciting, even accounting for the increased level of talent that runs the offense. Bringing in Haley allows Jackson to just be the head coach, and it's where he ought to be. I like Hue Jackson as the head coach of this team, but only as the head coach. He's in a great situation now and I expect good things. As I've said, I don't think it's yet consistent winning, but I do think we're about to see the start of something wonderful for the Cleveland Browns.

Hue Jackson deserves credit. We've been harsh on Hue, but with a 1-31 record, he deserved all the criticism. Now he deserves our praise. At 1-31, he has not backed down. He's not shown weakness. He's not given up. He's not lost the locker room. He's not lost the respect of the coaches.

Any coach with a talented roster can win games. It takes one hell of a coach to generate what looks to be a phenomenal culture at a time when the team is losing a record amount of games. If that's what Hue can do during losing, imagine what he can do when the team starts winning.

I've said my fair share of criticism against Hue, but I support him 100% moving forward.

Bravo. Great post.

"Hue doesn't have the wild intensity of Williams or Haley, yet he has a sincere intensity that commands respect."

This is one of the most important things I'm seeing. I think one of the biggest things leaders neglect to understand is the difference between demanding respect and commanding respect. Hue fits into the role perfectly imo. Very impressed with how he has handled himself. Even the situation with Coleman... Probably a lot of "mommy said no, I'll ask daddy" going on between Haley and Jackson. Players that have been here and don't like something Haley says have probably been running to Hue since day one... Very important that "mommy and daddy" are on the same page and there is a chain of command.

I'm done with the past - as we all should be. My complaints with Hue are pretty much in lockstep with what you stated. I think we'll see a different person on the sideline this year, now that he is not saddled with the role of running the offense. I don't expect to see him "meddle" as it seems obvious that he is fine with Haley and letting him do his job.

That said, as tough as he's been with his players and discipline, we deserve to be with him. Need to see drastic improvement in clock management in every facet... when to use timeouts, when to hurry or not hurry, etc. That and just understanding game situations. He declined a 15 yard penalty last year to force an opposing offense to 4th down (don't remember the game)... 4th and 2... at our 35 yard line. Yes they got the first down. Yes they ended up scoring a TD. Boneheaded, no excuses decision, the kind that gives the opponent points and loses games for your team. No can do, Hue. That's all window dressing, and the windows ain't pretty on an 0 and 16. Hue seems like a leader of men, who has the respect of his men. I'm not saying we will win one with Hue, but you can't win a championship without that quality.

yeah, to me you don't have to be a hard-a$$ leader. There are different ways to acquire your players' respect. I do think you need some of what Haley/Williams bring to the table, but Hue balances them out.

But isn't winning the point?

I'm willing to cut some slack,because I honestly think we tanked the last 2 seasons. I think it was the plan from start.


I'm disgusted with our picks this season, and think that most probably the tanking was for no purpose at all.


But, I've been wrong before (unfortunately regarding the Browns, I've been much more times right than wrong),so I'll just have to wait and see.

All and all I think it won't take too much time to see how this will pan out. In 3 or 4 games we will be able to know if it was worth it.

What I will not take is the give them more time crap. This is the start of the 3rd season,so no excuses now.

hu·bris
ˈ(h)yo͞obrəs/Submit
noun
excessive pride or self-confidence.
synonyms: arrogance, conceit, haughtiness, hauteur, pride, self-importance, egotism, pomposity, superciliousness, superiority; informal big-headedness, cockiness
"the hubris among economists was shaken"

Max Kellerman: Cleveland Browns ‘have to be considering’ firing Hue Jackson

| First Take | ESPN

What are they smoking? That guys is an idiot. How does he have a job? Although it looks like he is desparately clinging to outlandish opinions to try to keep a job.

I don't agree with the show's subject and perpetuating the idea of firing Hue, especially considering we haven't played a meaningful game. And the suggestion of thinking about it this early on is crazy talk. But I think the issues presented have validity. Especially, the inconsistency in how he has handled players and their health. The handling of Tyrod's injury was stupid- flat out stupid.

For example, he battled with coaches in Hard Knocks about giving players days off during training camp because when you don't have them during the season it really hurts, yet makes Callaway play a full game when he clearly needed a break, and the Tyrod situation. It's inconsistent to say the least.

Ok, but understand that Hard Knocks is only a biased slice of entertainment about a football team. Not really any different than Real Housewives Of LA.

You are better off ignoring both of those posters. They try and smear Hue every chance they get.

Dont worry.

Ok. So was there anything biased or clearly edited about what Hue said in that interaction with coaches re: handling player rest days and his reasoning for doing so?

Because how he dealt with the players, and issues, on the field loses that editing factor because we get to see the full game.

Do 30 seconds of interaction with coaches really show what he discusses with coaches? Does he only talk with coaches 30 seconds a day?

Of course not, but when those 30 seconds tell a coach, who challenges you, why you are resting someone and then does the complete opposite during games, it's warranted to question it.

But who knows, it could have been all staged. That's a legit premise to the show, it is just some pre-season pageantry before the real games begin.

Did anyone actually watch that entire interview? I hit the 1 minute mark and tapped out. Couldn't take it.

I did....the opening was pretty bad. It calmed down afterwards.

This is how reality tv works. They film some stuff, come up with a storyline, and show clips that fit the narrative. It isnt ever the whole picture, and can be incredibly biased. They dont care as long as its entertaining.

The way I understand last night was that Taylor had a dislocation of a bone to the small finger of his non-throwing hand. I assume it was put back in place by medical staff and he was fitted with a protective glove. With that done he was cleared to play. It wasn't a major injury and the medical staff, and the coaching staff, specifically Hue, were not reckless in allowing him to return to the game.

This is not the same as risking long-term serious injury from overworking major muscles which is why guys were periodically rested during training camp. These guys are trying to manufacture a controversy with their overreaction.