DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus How to destroy a family

A family was destroyed yesterday in Cape Coral Florida. It was destroyed not by it's own actions, though they made some bad ones. It was destroyed by the actions of a well-meaning do-gooder, who did not understand the mechanism she had set into motion. That mechanism is what I most question.

All these people are right around 21. My son's girlfriend has a close highschool friend with a long-term boyfriend. Within the last 12-18 months, this couple got pregnant, got married, got a good job, got a house, got a mortgage, got a new baby.

Amazingly enough, they were both stressed. There were many arguments.

Hubby has been drinking a bit. Somewhere between 4-5, 3-4 times a week, and a 12-pack or more every day. Guess who tells which story? He has also punched a few holes in the walls. Not Good, bigtime, but, no one has been injured, the house is clean, food in the fridge, the child is well-fed and well cared for, the bills are paid.

About a week ago, wifey threw hubby's beer in the garbage, and hubby locked her out of the house. Wifey was about to throw a brick threw a window, and my son talked her out of it. Not sure where the baby was at this time. Sometime later, hubby and wife are inside, with son's girlfriend present. Son does not know the couple all that well.

Several things went wrong in short order. DURING an argument, wifey walks across the room, picks up the baby, goes back to hubby, and continues the argument. She either pokes, prods, or lightly punches hubby in the chest.

This is bad parenting, possible deliberate child endangerment, she was using that baby as a shield, everyone present including the cop so stated.

Hubby however, after the poke-prod-light punch, smacked her across the mouth, not hard, but he hit her. At this point, girlfriend called the cops, and this family was ended.

Both girlfriend and wifey insisted nothing would happen, she dropped charges, expected all to be well. My son knew otherwise, and informed them thusly. They refused to believe.

Yesterday, DCF came to the house, and told wifey that either she leaves the home or they will take the child away. Hubby got fired for being arrested for domestic violence, so they will both lose their home, their thousands of saved dollars on the down payment, and their credit rating. The couple cannot even talk to each other. If they do , the child is removed.

Both hubby and wifey have told girlfriend she is no longer welcome in their home. I told my son that when this man realizes what has been done, girlfriend will not be safe withing 100 yards of this dude. Girlfriend inserted herself where she did not belong, if she wanted to do something she should have stopped her friend from taking the baby back to the argument. Maybe sat both down for a good chat months ago.

Every arm and action of local government will be geared towards tearing this family apart. At no point will wifey's actions be questioned or examined, every singly move will focus on removing hubby. An already stressful situation has been made impossibly stressful now, by well-meaning
do-gooders.

Whether this family could have survived and been maintained, I do not know. What I do know is that this is extremely unlikely from this point forward. Hubby, wifey, and child are all damaged and lessened by a government bent on one thing, getting hubby OUT of this family.

Many years ago, friends, family, church-related folks, people who knew the family, would have taken some action before it got to this point. The family would have been more likely to be saved, because most of these folks would have seen that as the primary goal, while recognizing that there are times when it is just not possible.

But, that did not happen. Instead, a sledgehammer was used to kill a fly. People making these decisions about this family will be those who do not know the people involved at all, in any way. They will make decisions based on a single criteria and agenda, they will not act in the best interests of this child or family, but out of their own biases and preferences.

I cannot say that the entire DCF staff are man-hating lesbians, but I have done work in that local office several times, and out of 8-10 field agents, all were female. Not one man in the group. The women were all middle-aged or older, none of them young. Many were not wearing wedding rings. Most were at best plain, several distinctly unattractive. I do not know how many were healthily heterosexual, but the majority regularly and repeatedly expressed strongly negative opinions about men in general.

IMO such a group is not, will not, and cannot be geared to helping children and families, which is their job title. Many years ago the state audited this department, and found them "poorly trained, poorly staffed, and poorly led". A repeat audit, done several years later, made the exact same statement. No change, and nothing has been changed since then.

These are the people who have functional control over whether this particular family, and many others, will continue or cease to exist. They should not. They work to create broken homes, they make no effort whatsoever to repair them.

I hate when I hit my wife and only lose my job.

No comment about the lack of diversity in the office staff? I thought diversity was vitally important?

No comment about bringing the baby physically into the argument? Babies are even smaller, lighter, and weaker than women, in general. No interest in protecting the child?

See, when you have a single-point agenda, and a single-point focus, you will frequently miss important details and be unable to get a clear, overall picture of the situation, and how best to proceed.

I do not know what would have worked. What I know for a certainty is that it is extremely likely that this family will never work again, and I see that as a far greater tragedy than a female being smacked in the face.

Because I know someone will say it, that is an act I have never performed in my life. However, like the comic says, "Don't TELL ME there is never a reason. There are LOTS of reasons. You just don't do it."

There is NO ONE in a position of authority here who will make any effort to investigate if this particular family could be saved. All involved will be harmed far more greatly than a single bad act justifies, IMO.

You will not see that. You will not weigh one bad thing against another, or evaluate the future consequences. You see a cause to wail and trumpet against. I agree a bad thing happened, I see a far, far worse outcome in the process of happening.

lol

To me the story here, well two parts actually.

21 years-old?

It’s tough for 21 year-old couples to make a go of it. That’s a low percentage play.

And,

You need to positively, absolutely minimize exposure to agencies that have authoritative jurisdiction over your actions.

I think this is getting harder to do.

You lost all credibility with this paragraph and it really reveals a lot about your inner character.

two things in this world I do not tolerate. Men who abuse women, and men who abuse children. This guy sounds like he would do both, as he clearly has already done to one.

Sorry bud, this guy is a pos and needs to be kept away from anyone he can harm. Hes a drunk, and his actions throughout your story seemed as though they escalated over time, along with his drinking.

He deserves everything that is coming to him.

As have you and CHS.

Tell me, which piece of factual data and observation do you wish to disagree with? Folks are always talking about bias and prejudice and bigotry. Do you not see that the makeup of that office has a very major impact on what is about to occur, and what has been done so far?

Do you think an older, unmarried, unattractive woman, who regularly says demeaning, unkind, and unpleasant things about men in general, is MORE LIKELY or LESS LIKELY to be a man-hating lesbian than average? If a government official of any kind had said the same things about a protected minority, you would demand their immediate resignation. At minimum that they be removed from any position of authority.

Rocky's statement about minimizing exposure to agencies is actually far, far more important than most will realize or admit. They are helping agendas move forward, not people, almost across the board.

I have told my son to go to the house and count the beer cans in the garbage. Dude might be a drunk, he might be a total POS as well, but both parties have some fault to bear.

She hit him first, both wifey and girlfriend are in agreement that the slap was not very hard. A bad thing, but, are men and women truly EQUAL, or NOT? They are not, because you just don't hit women, but then, that means that they are NOT EQUAL, doesn't it? Pick one.

One of the reasons this man is stressed, is because he believes that everything in that house is his responsibility, his job to fix, his job to make better, his and his alone, as are all problems and failures. I don't really disagree with this, but the problem is that he was unprepared for adult life, as they both were. Wifey was intent on nesting and stressed herself. Neither likely communicated to the other about their mutual concerns.

This problem should have solved within the family group, if possible, and that might not have been possible. But, these two people wanted to solve it, wanted to keep their family together, and still do. What they failed to understand, is that the whole rest of the world does not care about their family, and is not interested in helping it stay together.

They did not receive help with their primary goal. Something else was decided by others, outside the family, as being more important.

Just curious, does the woman get to make her own decision on the matter, or do all here insist on making it for her?

How to destroy a family according to Nelson.
Drink too much. Argue a lot. Smack your wife. Blame the assumed lesbians at protective services.

I never thought of trying to physically hurt my (ex)wife.

And I made it very clear early in our relationship, neither should she.

(try to intentionally physically hurt me - as in anger)

For instance, I'm not John Wayne. If she would have slepped me, she would have got it right back.

Before "protective Services" ever existed, the number of single-parent families was dramatically lower than it is today.

Single-parent families are the single greatest predictor of negative outcomes for the children, more so than any other factor. Poverty, prison, death, drug-abuse, many other issues, ALL significantly and provably increased, MORE HARM comes to children, all due to "protective services", who have an obvious bias and agenda.

There are families which cannot be helped or saved. BUT, a very large number of them can be saved, and, if you are at all concerned about the well-being of the children, should be saved. Knowing which is which is not generally possible without a crystal ball. Error is inevitable. The bias should be in favor of providing a better outcome, not a worse one.

Equality has nothing to do with physicality. I am a Male, however I would say that I am equal to Myles Garrett and a physical altercation would not be fair or equal.

I see the point you are trying to make, however equality in the workplace or on a social system, is not equality physically.

Poking someone is not a reason to physically hit someone. Sorry, there is no fault that a women can do to ever get hit by a man. No argument you make or what if scenarios will ever change that in my mind. If a women is straight up punching you in the face, you grab her and an restrain her. You do not hit her.

Life is stressful. I bought my house in 2012 on a Thursday, I was laid off on a Tuesday (thanks Obama ). That is stress my friend. In 2015 my wife was 7 months pregnant with our son, I was laid off yet again. That is stress. My wife was stressed, I was stressed. We argued...a lot about money, finances, what we were going to do etc. A lot of arguing, a lot of heated discussions. . .Never once, did raising my hand EVER even become a thought.

THe problem would not have been solved in the family group IMO. We respectfully disagree. Someone who hits a women is akin to a child molester in my view. Those types of people cannot change. He has always been that way, and always will be that. This may have been the first time, but it wont be the last.

I don't think you realize that men in a relationship, especially abusive relationships, have a "power" over their spouse. They control them mentally as much as physically. They will keep them down, convince them they are nothing without them and cannot survive without them. This is why over and over again, you will see women who are beaten almost HALF TO DEATH by their spouses, go back over and over again. Because "he loves her" and "will change. It was the last time". I do not doubt at all they wanted to handle it themselves, and I bet the husband was pushing for this, because that would keep the abuse from being public. And allow for it to happen again.

To answer your last question, as I just stated, she has to have it made for her. We have no idea nor do you what abuse she has taken over the relationship. This may not have been the first time (and I would bet it was not). We also do not know the MENTAL abuse she has sustained from him over the time, with promises to change. These guys are scum, but they can then within seconds be the most loving and caring people on earth right after. They mentally abuse first, physically abuse second. I doubt she is in the mind frame to be able to make her decision on this. And the fact there is a baby involved, EVEN more so dictates to me that the authorities need to step in, since he is in danger as well.

Despicable.

To an extent, again I see what you are saying and the case you are making. Arguing and having disagreements are yelling matches is one thing, those can be resolved in the house.

Once a fist/hand flies - and a baby is involved (one who cannot or does not have any say), someone needs to get involved.

There is in my mind, no saving a women beater.

Willit, I am not defending what this dude did. I do not know either party, nor do I know any details about the home situation.

But, you are making a lot of assumptions based on guesswork and propaganda. You are looking at only one solution, and not examining others. With no knowledge about the situation, you demand to be able to make decisions for another adult without her knowledge or consent.

You seem to be implying that just because she is a woman, she is incapable of making a rational decision about her own life? That can't be true, can it?

Many women are abusive as well, both physically and emotionally. I have seen it many times. Most men will not take these issues outside the family unit, because men are geared to solve their own problems and not rely on others to do so, which women are more inclined to do.

What IF they could fix it, remain happily (more-or-less) married, child grows up happy and well adjusted with no issues, which will almost certainly not happen now. Should not that possibility be examined, instead of being dismissed automatically?

In jobs where physical labor is involved, women are by law to be considered to be just as physically capable as men. There is a mistaken concept somewhere in this mix.

Also, I find it fascinating that no one at all has commented on the women crossing the room twice to bring the baby into the argument.

The state profits several thousand dollars by what they have done. Jobs are justified. No one is making any effort to see if a better outcome for the child could be effected.

My opinion on this story is it is another example of very young people with little life experience, taking on too much too soon.

They became overwhelmed and began the process of escaping the stress and taking it out on each other.

If you take away everything that happened afterward, the root cause is overwhelming anxiety, a plate too full, and the lack of life experience to handle it all.

40, you are exactly correct.

This situation predates the written word. Humanity survived.

The difference today, is that others now insert themselves into the family. Are there times when this is necessary, YES, but there are also many, many times when it is not.

We used to call this a broken home, and we have people today whose careers and livelihoods are dependent on creating broken homes. It should not be a growth industry.

When a child is learning to walk, they will fall down a lot.

I am saying she cannot make a rational decision. Not because she is a women, because there is a pattern of abuse and a pattern of behavior from the man aggressively escalating his behavior as time goes on. Sooner or later, the escalation will result in serious injury, or death. My assumptions as you put it, will ensure the survival of the female and child. That is enough for my assumptions to be acted upon.

I clearly stated the reasons for the women not to be able to make the decision, none of which had anything to do with her sex. you are trying to make it out that way to push some agenda on the topic, trying to make a point without actually saying it because you know how disgusting it is. The point you are trying to make, is that you should be allowed to beat your wife if as long as she wants to stay with you. I am going on a limb and assuming you are single.

There are abusive women, some men like that actually. Some men refuse to do anything about it because we are TRAINED to think we are not men if we do. That is a grave mistake.

What if they can fix it? perhaps they can. Are you willing to risk the life of the women and the childs life on a WHAT IF? I am not. If you don't think the childs life is that important, so be it. I doubt you do. I think your above agenda I pointed out is more important to you. Smack em if you got em!

As to the women bringing the baby over. You do realize that she did this for a reason right? And its not the reason you think. You see, its classic behavior of a women who has been constantly abused. She grabbed he baby, because "no way would he hit me if I had the baby with me. He only hits me when I don't have the baby". This act, you are not realizing shows he has abused her time and time again.

The better outcome for the child is to be removed from the garbage father.

Sounds like a lot of excuses to be able to hit your wife. not a single thing you said is cause to do so. NOT A SINGLE THING.

Your reading comprehension needs work.
I never justified any of the bad actions, I simply stated what lead to it happening.

Willit, your contention is not entirely correct, gonna tell you a little story about how such things were handled much, much better.

This is a story about my own mother and father, but first I have to explain Grandpa. My mother's people were West Virginia hill folk, Grandpa was a truck driver all his life, and at this time, was a well-known union tough guy. I do not know for certain if he ever beat someone to death, but I know he saw men killed and was widely assumed to be capable of it.

So, sometime around 1946 or so, when my father hit my mother, and she told her dad about it, Grandpa took action. The conversation was very short and there were no witnesses, but all 4 grandkids knew exactly what Grandpa said. "You touch her again, and I'll kill ya". My father never laid a finger on my mother again. Never. Unfortunately the prohibition was not extended to children, particularly the stubborn ones, like my oldest brother, and me.

I never knew why until years later, but the only time I ever saw my father and Grandpa within 50 feet of each other was at my grandma's funeral. "Sorry for your loss", "yeah". It was a growl, and my father left immediately. I spent a lot of time at Grandpa's house.

Funny story, his house had a short stained-glass accent piece over one of the windows, in the frame, and after he sold the house, grandpa said he was taking the piece, dude who bought the house said it belonged to him now. Grandpa removed it with a chain saw, and left.

My mother stayed in that marriage for 30 years more, until the youngest (me) turned 17. He was kvetching about something, and she told him to get out. "Well, uhhhh...", "That's IT! I've HAD IT! JUST GET OUT!" We were all happy about it, and shocked to learn that Mom was a lot tougher than any of us had ever thought.

She stayed in an unhappy marriage for a very long time, because she thought it was necessary for her children. Probably was. Dad was a harsh, relentless [censored], but he provided many valuable lessons in a way that Mom could not have done.

All four kids are basically in agreement with the above, though we use other words to describe "harsh, relentless [censored]". A lot of them.

Its not my comprehension. Read the story again. Look at the signs of the women, and the behavior of the "man" ( I put in quotes because hes not a man). he has escalated his behavior. Like a child molester, women beaters are just that. There is nothing that will lead up to it, they are going to beat women, and they are not going to stop beating women. Its ingrained as to who they are. There is no changing them, and they would have done it anyway - stress or not, eventually.

Probably a blessing in disguise. Sounds like this has been escalating for a while now. If he's slapping her in front of guests, what is doing when they are gone?

I don't get why you keep referring to what happened AFTER the overwhelming stress of a too full plate was applied.

Yes, I agree it exploded AFTER the root cause was applied but I see nothing in the story to suggest there was a problem before the stress.

I don't think you realize, but your example is EXACTLY why they should have stepped in and took you guys away.

You see that behavior is hereditary. And by your post, you are already trying to make a case for hitting women, because "look at my family, we were fine".

Which is ironic, because here you are now, trying to make a case that a women and child be left in an abusive relationship, which is similar to the situation you and your mother where in as a child. You are making a case that they should be left alone, because you turned out fine, but I would make the case they should not, based on that same example. . . . .

The fact she grabbed the baby as a "shield" tells me she knew there was a chance he was going to hit her. She thought he would not if she had the baby. Meaning he has done so before.

The increase in alcohol intake...going from yelling to hitting. its classic signs of abuse, and escalation of such. It doesn't say it outright no, but the signs are there.

and the fact that WE KNOW he did it once, means 1. he has done it in the past or 2. he will do it again.

The stress means noting. If he has done it once, he will and is capable of doing it again. There is no excuse to hit a women. he has done so. Hence, if stress caused him to hit a women, stress will cause it again....and each time, less stress will be needed for it to happen again, because he got away with once.

We can just agree to disagree, bud.

You keep saying I am looking at the action AFTER but the fact remains that no action before is justification or should equate a women to being hit by her husband.

My point is there is no "ROOT cause".

If you think there are actions that are sufficient enough for a man to beat his wife because he has to pay a water bill, well....then im sorry for you.

Once again you refer to things that occurred AFTER the stress was applied.
I know you get emotional as the abuse and drinking comes into play, just as I find it horrible what occurred AFTER the stress was applied.

My point is this was a happy couple, building a life together, until the root cause of their future problems was applied. This entire situation and their downfall was created by the stress of the couple taking on too much responsibility at a very early age.

This was the cause, the rest is the effect.
You are hung up on the effect while I am referring to the cause.

Stress isn't what makes people beat their wives lol

Overwhelming stress can lead to alcohol and drug abuse in an effort to escape it.

Overwhelming stress can lead to withdrawing from life or lashing out in anger.

Overwhelming stress can lead to jealousy and anger as we saw with Cain killing Abel. It is as old as mankind itself.

Wow, yet another misogynist post by Nelson. How surprising.

If you're using stress as an excuse to abuse someone then probably you need to go seek a Dr, because that's not an acceptable excuse.

Repeat, I have never hit a woman in my life, actually, from a very early age, I knew there must be some powerful rule about this because my father never hit my mother as far as anyone of us knew, and he did pretty much as he darn well pleased.

Thanks to Grandpa, he did change, which you are saying does not happen, change did occur. Due to a threat of violence, which some say never does any good. In this case it did.

Now, I thought I made it abundantly clear, but NO, I am not making a case for hitting women, nor did I say the family should stay together, what I said was, that should at minimum be an option on the table.

Just got some new information, yes he has done it before, more than once, wifey definitely wants to stay together, hubby did not lose his job, keeping the house, as a couple, is still an option. Also, wifey's home situation with parents is very, very much not good, dating from long before the marriage. No details but girlfriend was pretty definite on this point. Also they dated for four years before marrying.

This happened over a week ago now and wifey is abundantly clear that her desire is to live with her husband. At what point does she get to choose what she wants to do?

Eve, do you know what they call it in baseball when a batter, with no men on base, turns the bat horizontal and contacts the ball weakly with minimal forward motion?

That is a worthless bunt.

Why do you insist on accusing me of making excuses for bad behavior when I simply stated what can lead to that bad behavior?

They were a happy couple.
They were under enormous stress by taking on too much.
They turned to alcohol and anger and abuse.
They destroyed their own life through those actions.
There is no excuse for what they did but there was a ROOT CAUSE to why they went down that path.

To be honest, their situation sounds pretty normal for a young couple.

So I don't really buy that excuse as a "stressful situation"

This is not that stressful. This is probably ideal in your 20's.

Mostly they sound like a terrible couple.

If stress was the root cause, more people would beat their wives, 40.

People beat their wives because they enjoy beating their wives. Stress is not the cause. He was going to beat her regardless. That is what you are missing.

Stress is NOT a root cause for leading down this path.

People of all walks of life have stress and it doesn't lead to them being abusive.

These are just abusive-minded people, stressed out or not. This family was doomed from the get-go, regardless of what protective services did. My guess is that they probably saved something way worse from happening down the road.