DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2018 NFL Season Looking Back: Browns 21 Steelers 21 So its Begun

It never ceases to amaze me how so many of you are desperately wishing for a man to be fired.

It's Skip Bayless. Since when does his opinion matter. He's like a little girl jumping on whatever the next bandwagon is that comes around. The man has made a career over stirring the pot with little credibility to the topic.

I am absolutely NOT wishing for Hue to get fired because you can't really fire Hue without blowing up everything around him... I don't really have a strong opinion on Hue as a HC because I think he has had crap to work with since he got here.. but I like SOOOOOO much of what we've built including the OC/DC we have and I would absolutely be disgusted if we took a step backwards now..

I'm all in favor of giving Hue this entire season and next season unless we don't see any progress at all the rest of the year.

i remember the topic of jff and steven a smith said Dak`s legs look like tree trunks apposed to jff....skip said they are the same weight..

Why would it amaze anyone to see a 1-31-1 Coach fired?

Why your outrage, we know you support Hue, but don't even pretend it makes any sense, because it does not.

Its your prerogative to like Hue, and I think most of us respect that, but your outraged posts make no sense.

I agree with you. He somehow changed his stance. He went from questioning the Hue hire to saying Hue is a good coach while watching the team go 1-31. Its weird. I'd be curious to know what changed his mind.

The irony.

How long u been on the board? .. is this the first or second regime we’ve had since u joined the board?

Anyone whose been around knows the answer to your question and it has VERY LITTLE to NOTHING to do with football ...

It has everything to do with sticking up for the defenseless especially when EVERY SINGLE THING THEY DO is completely blown out of proportion ... EVERYTHING ...

It started long ago some recent examples ... my personal fav was the no stripes on the helmet ... i thought ... how petty of my fellow dawgs and we have a few other issues a wee bit more important ... not from some ... you’d of thunk he just punted on 2nd down and 4 from the opponents 25 yard line ... *LOL* ..

Like with Josh starting/not starting ... blaming that on Hues moronic ... Haley sent the wrong package out on the first play ... what was Hue suppose to check with him to make REALLY SURE he followed the directive ... MISTAKES HAPPEN ... Haley $crewed up .. not from some on here ... its proof that Hue don’t pay attention to detail ... ...

Then there’s the cadence on Special teams ... u have to expect certain levels of competency from your staff ... i mean .. COME ON .. is Hue suppose to wipe there asses also? Sheesh ...

The answer to your question has EVERYTHING to do with Vers the PERSON and very little to do with Vers’s “football knowledge” ...

I have no idea why that would be....

I know you are just criticizing me, but I will address what you said.

--I criticized Hue early on. I questioned his ability to evaluate qbs. I thought some posters overrated him. Thus, I tried to provide balance. I never did question his ability to work w/QBs or his offensive mind. I never thought he was a bad coach, I just thought some were overly effusive w/their praise.

--Now, I think that there are too many people who unfairly blame him. I haven't said he is a good HC. I just think that he deserves a chance to prove himself one way or the other.

--People love throwing the record out there and I get that, but I think it is either short-sighted or at least denying the facts. This team was completely gutted. The roster was by far the worst in football. That wasn't Hue's doing. The plan was to start over and accumulate a ton of draft picks and cash. That was accomplished. However, the designers of the plan warned us that we were going to lose a lot of games. Hell, we went into last year w/3 QBs who had never won a single game in the NFL.

--I also defend Hue because of the crew [which you are a part of] nitpicks every little thing he does and even resorts to making things up simply to trash him [like the bogus information that Hue mishandled things at the end of the first half against the Steelers.

--The most important reason I defend Hue is something that the astute DC mentioned a few posts up. Firing Hue will only set this franchise back. New players will be brought in to fit the new guy's scheme and philosophies. Some of the young talent we have been developing will be sent packing. We might lose one or both coordinators. It's the same stupid crap that has plagued this franchise since we were reborn in 1999.

To summarize: I do not "love" Hue. I am not saying he is a "good HC." I'm saying that people are playing unfairly and firing him will only set the team back. And I could freaking care less if you and the others in the Hue Hate Club like it or not.

This is actually the first post you have made that I agree with.

Hue will be fired this year. That is not an "attack" or "wishing" he is. If/when Hue is fired, its because we are blowing again. I don't want that. I want Hue to win the darn SB.

In the locker room, Hue is a great coach - players love him and will run through a brick wall for him. On the sideline, he is clueless. Sorry, I want a HC that wins football games. That's just me.

Good post, DC. Hue has to win some games. I think most folks are like you in that they are being fair about it. We just have about a dozen or so folks on this board who try to turn every thread into a bash Hue thread. There are also some media members that are grinding the same axe.

I just want to clarify that I am not getting on guys who have concerns about Hue. There are concerns. So, I am not addressing guys like you. It's that half-dozen or so that I'm battling. They are the very same guys who loved Sashi and are now acting vindictively.

I think Hue Jackson probably will be fired this year.

However, I think this is the reason we hired Todd Haley.

Todd Haley is a Dorsey guy, they worked together in KC. Its my understanding that the owner went over Dorsey head and fired Haley in KC. If Haley and Dorsey didn't have a good relationship, he wouldn't have been hired as our OC. I also don't see Haley taking the job as our OC under the premise that if we don't do well its a one year see you later kinda deal.

Todd Haley is the man in waiting. If Hue Jackson fails and gets fired, Todd Haley will be our next Head Coach. Not our interim head coach, but THe actual Head coach. Haley will keep Gregg Willaims, and will keep most of the current staff in place so its not a complete reset.

To be frank, this Browns team needs an abrasive personality like Haley who will call them out for being soft when they are, not letting guys skip practice, and will put these players nose to the grind stone through hell or high water make them get better.

Haley and Jackson have already butted heads a few times anyways over philosophical issues, Haley has the right of it. Guys gotta work if they want to get better and win games, this taking days off because of soft tissue is just a cop out and encouraging guys to be lazy, Landry agreed with Haley on it...

IU honestly hope Jackson can pull something out and win 8-9 games this year because that will save his job here in Cleveland because im sick of starting over all the time, but if he falters, Haley will be the guy. He is a John Dorsey guy thorough and through, and deserves another chance as a head coach.

This post is an example of when I said people are "making things up."

Maybe. If so, Haley would have to be interim until the Browns conducted a proper search due to the Rooney Rule.

But yeah, I think would slid right in

...

Short of us losing the first 3 games by a combined total of 151 - 6 ...

HUE’S SAFE TIL THE BYE ...

Crap Peen .. think about this .. THE THIEF IS BEING MORE RATIONAL THAN U in this case ... that should be cause for concern as I know your a rational guy in almost every aspect of your life ...

How do you keep a coach who is 1-31-1? If the Browns don't start winning some games I want Jackson gone.

while i don't think Hue should be fired at all this year regardless. But I think he's on a much shorter rope than people think. Noone will blame us for firing him. if he don't win atleast 7 games this year i think hes gone. I think had he not been 1-31, BM would be starting right now. But no way Hue can take any chance on anything unknown. TT is atleast a known commodity. He's a below average qb, but he's atleast won in the NFL, something we haven't had in 2 years.

j/c:

Just to clarify a couple of things that people are apparently accepting as factual.

Dorsey and Haley did not work together in KC. The owner did not go over Dorsey's head to fire Haley.

Dorsey was in KC from 2013 to 2016.

Haley was in KC from 2009 to 2011.

Additionally, Hue hired Haley. I also don't believe that Hue and Haley are in a bad relationship. They are coaches. Coaches disagree. It's part of the nature of the game.

Will everyone at least try to stick to the facts instead of making things up while they are trying to convince us that Hue needs to be fired? Is that too much to ask?

J/C

Baker could have won the game for the Browns. I do think that. I really like the kid, a lot more than I did pre-draft. From everything I've seen, he's impressed with how quickly he has learnt the offense. His leadership qualities and work ethic has impressed everyone in the building. He put together an incredibly impressive training camp. On the field, in the preseason, it was clear that there is something to this selection. He looked fantastic.

With that said, it's very simple to suggest he would have won the game. It's a picture perfect hypothetical that almost resonates with the vibrations of the happy ending to this story that this team utterly deserves.

It's also very simple to imagine Baker getting the nod in the terrible conditions, against a fantastic opponent, and bombing. Throwing a few picks, accomplishing little. Immediately, the Browns are decimated by all. The threw Baker in to the deep end. Lost their nerve to develop him. The action highlights the dysfunction within the organization, from Haslam down to Jackson, in which Taylor was abandoned and Baker unprotected. The narrative would go that in one fell swoop the Browns had destroyed any confidence in moving forward with Taylor, and destroyed any confidence in Mayfield.

The simplicity of this situation is too easily overlooked - Baker Mayfield could not have won that game because he didn't play in it.

What Baker Mayfield will take away from that game is some great tape. What is wrong and what is right with this offense. What is and is not a good example of quarterbacking. What Tyrod Taylor, Todd Haley and Hue Jackson learn from this game will certainly also be what Baker Mayfield learns from this game.

That, to me, means more than the possibility (Possibility, not probability) of Mayfield winning the game for the Browns. I genuinely believe that what games we tie or lose now can be made up for in the future by putting Baker Mayfield in the best situation possible to assure his success.

The plan for Mayfield is reminiscent of chess. The best chess players are willing to sacrifice their pawns for the long term goal of taking down kings and queens. If Mayfield pans out, it isn't about turning a tie in to a win. It's about consistently winning. It's about the playoffs. It's about contending for a Superbowl.

The strategy is one I admire due to precedence. Aaron Rodgers. Tom Brady. Philip Rivers. Tony Romo. Patrick Mahomes. Drew Bress. Kirk Cousins. Jimmy Garoppolo. Jared Goff. Eli Manning. The list could continue with past players, including the likes of Joe Montana. Many greater quarterbacks have taken development time before getting significant NFL reps.

That isn't to suggest it is the only option, of course, but it is clear that the plan in place has a method behind the madness.

Here is the situation that I envisage, which I believe is fair to consider one that the staff within the Browns organization share..

- The 2019 team could very easily address several roster issues in both free agency and the draft. A promising venture given the clear strength of the defence and skill positions. Simply, this team is closer to success than ever before.

- Baker Mayfield, after developing for all of 2018, enters 2019 as the uncontested starter. He gets a full training camp of first team reps. He's already familiar with the offense, so the learning curve is significantly reduced. His entire camp and preseason will be spend perfecting his craft and maximizing his chemistry.

- The Browns are a year closer to a very different AFC North. The division is getting older at positions that are difficult to replace. Take the Steelers, for example. Ben Roethlisberger will be 37. Ramon Foster and Marcus Gilbert will be 33 and 31. Antonio Brown will be 31. Joe Haden, Casey Hayward and Morgan Burnett will be 30. They won't all retire or fall over the hill, but they'll all be a year closer to it. That is also important for the league: Who knows what happens with the likes of Tom Brady and Drew Brees: It may not just be a different AFC North, but a different AFC and a different NFL. It is this window that the Browns are well positioned for.

This is a solid plan. It continues what has been in place since the moment Sashi was both hired and fired - a clear eye to the future in which this team is built for long term, sustainable success.

The Browns aren't in a window - there is time to develop Mayfield to maximise the chances of him being our franchise quarterback.

I don't see any reason to give up on this plan. While we can argue about Tyrod Taylor, we're also ignoring that this TEAM looked better than it has in years. This TEAM was just extremely competitive with the kings of the AFC North who are supposed to be competing for a championship.

I hope our fans can be patient. We've seen nothing to suggest that our patience won't be rewarded.

No team loves a losing leader... that is just BS.

Regarding Hue, I actually started thinking some time ago that we tanked the last 2 seasons to rebuild the team.

Haley was a disappointment, because nobody knows the Stealers D better than him...

Good post. Very sensible.

And we are back to disagreeing.

I absolutely will not accept that any player or coach in the NFL would do that.

Sashi wanted to trade away everyone to tank to amass picks, ehhhhhhhhh maybe.

But what you are suggesting has nothing to do with hue, but the FO. Hue didn't trade away the little talent we had or draft our picks the last two years. I think Hue should be fired, but I don't think what you are suggesting hue has done.

I don't like Hue because of his decision making abilities - you can tell very much so he wants to win. I just don't believe he can.

I wasn't criticizing. I was just curious why you had a change of heart. In a nut shell, you're saying you don't think Hue was given a fair chance with the roster he was given. Plus, you value continuity. That's fair.

I don't agree with you. And that's fine. I felt he was given a fair chance. I believe it's very difficult to go 1-15 in this league let alone 0-16. He did both. I think continuity with the wrong coach is just as bad as firing coaches every 5 minutes.

I believe hiring and firing GMs is worse than hiring and firing coaches for the reasons you listed. I don't think a new coach necessarily means we are starting over, but a new GM may.

The consensus seems to be that Haley is the heir apparent. I don't buy it for a second. I think if Hue is fired, especially at the end of the season then Haley and Williams are also gone. I would say if Hue is fired mid-season, someone (maybe Haley) would have an opportunity to audition for the head job in 2019. I don't think we would ever fire Hue and promote Haley following the season...

and for some reason I appear to be in the minority in the regard....


Also, thank you for your post.

We disagree on some things, but that was a fair post. I like debating the way we just did. Thanks.

I have said more than once that deaf, blind, and drunk, a person would have won 2 games by now by shear luck

I watched the entire game Sunday - and sober, too!! - and I can't recall a decision that Hue made (or was likely to have made) that was an obvious bad one.

The decision to take a knee at the end of the half was because
1. It was third and fifty miles, so why take a risk?; and

2. We knew we were getting the ball to start of the second half.

I know this essay was written in response to Skip Bayless (who is deserving of no response at all)... but it was great to read as a Browns fan. Not because of the potential for 'feel-goods'... but because of how well conceived it was.

Yours is the kind of post I love to read.

Its very common and accepted in basketball for example
So we have moneyball from baseball

and Tanking for picks from basketball and the Colts

My take is an issue of semantics.

To me, the word "tank" implies intent. I do not believe for a moment that our FO/Coaching Staff intentionally lost games to bolster our draft status. I do believe we were just that bad/incomplete as a team.

After a near miss game last year, I made this statement: "This team can compete for 2/3 of a game because it's 2/3 of a professional football team." I believed it then; I believe it still. Now THIS year, we are about 4/5 there. That will be enough to win some games, but prob not enough to vault us into the post season.

We are following a Moneyball paradigm, but there was no intentional losing.

Nothing big......I think the spike of the ball with 15 seconds or whatever before the failed FG attemt was a bad call. We didn't have any to's left as I recall.



Maybe spike it with 3 seconds left. Leave no time on the clock after the kick.


That is what I would do.



But that is just me.....why give them a chance?



Just saying

Because if we would have gotten a penalty there would have been a 10 second run-off and guys like you would be screaming bloody murder as to "Why the hell didn't the idiot Hue know the rules and stop the clock just outside of 10 seconds?!?!"

Fair enough argument except I wouldn't have expected a penalty and wouldn't have planned for failure.


I wouldn't have even considered that.



I think you are giving Huebert way more credit than deserved. A stretch IMO

Of course you do.

Unless the players are also clueless.. then this cannot be true. Players wouldn't love and "run through a brick wall" for a coach if they thought he was the reason they were losing.

They might like him as a person but if any players thought Hue was the reason they were losing, they would want him gone faster than the fans do... They might love him as a person, they might shake his hand, give him a hug, shed a tear as he left the building.. but in the end, they want a coach that puts them in a position to win.. if Hue isn't that guy, they would know it first.

My issue with Hue, is just that. THAT is one thing in a longgggg line of other bad calls/plays. 11 penalties (two back to back false starts at home???) 100+ yards in penalites, seem to be the norm with a Hue team. Say what you want about Mangini, he had this team AT LEAST prepared to play the game. Its those little things, that he says over an over and over again "we gotta clean it up, and we will" then never does, is what is frustrating. How many wins now do you think we have lost because of DUMB penalties on his watch? Dumb time management errors? 5-6?

When you are 1 and thirty whatever with a tie, those little things are going be brought up. I know the talent has not been on this team for him, but you can teach a guy not to go offside every other play, or false start - even if they lack talent. EM did. We were the least penalized team in football.

We shoot ourselves in the foot too much, and that comes from the head honcho himself.

a flea flicker in the endzone into triple coverage? should have been fired on the spot. That's the coach you are sticking up for?

I want to see his results when he gets to work on his HC craft. And he has some folks who can help. I think the whole HC job is too big for him as he tried last year. Wait and see if we can't do better and stabilize more. You can learn on the job, but you can't fix stupid.