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My favorite tax would actually be the flat sales tax.




I always wondered what the catch with a flat sales tax was, and I figured it out a while ago ... It would be a reverse-progressive tax. In other words, the poor would get taxed a much higher percentage than the wealthy. If you think about it. The poor generally use thier entire income on things they need to live. The wealthy are able to reinvest their earnings into other (non-sales taxable) things. So while the rich would still pay on goods with a flat sales tax ... it would only be like 80% or less of their total income. While the poor would be paying on 100% of their income.

Not to mention that it would could possibly hurt tourism and other foreign money coming into the economy.

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Sounds like you're a real deal anarchist DC!!!




I don't think so Canada. I've debated this issue with DC. And from what I can gather (and I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong) we see things from a different perspective.

My perspective is pretty basic.

My opinion is.....................

If I see a dog that is hit by a car,I will try to help that dog any way I can. And I don't plan to send that dog a bill. I see that as a "humanitarian act". I think that health care is a "human right". That denying or preventing any American the right to health care,or coverage of said health care is denying them a basic human right. I believe the "hippocratic oath" that doctors take,further dictates that if they abide by it,is precisely saying the very same thing. And as such,it should be "insured" that in our country,everybody should be entitled to health care if we expect the world to take US sincerly about being humanitarians.

Now I don't believe DC has an "inhumane" bone in his body. But I think he feels that the private sector "CAN" run businesses more efficiantly. That putting it in the hands of our government will only cause the cost to rise,but the quality of care to go down. And he believes it should remain in the private sector to promote research,development and advancements which will only progress at a much faster rate where the spirit of competition exists.

I know he's going to give me hell for that,but that's my take on his position.


Now the thing is,I really don't disagree with many of his points! I think they're very logical.

I think the bone of contention between us is that I feel that health care has become a "limited monopoly". A handfull of major health providers,the pharmaceutical industry is controled by a handfull of major corperations who use subsideries to make it "appear" like there are more of them than there really is.

They hold the monopoly of life and death.Then when you add the lawsuits for malpractice on top of that,it's just a mess.

So DC and I don't see eye to eye on this,but I think bottom line,that he doesn't promote people dying in the streets rather than recieve health care. But I could be wrong.


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2007 Taxable Income Tax Rate
first $37,178 25.50%
over $37,178 up to $74,357 32.00%
over $74,357 up to $120,887 36.00%
over $120,887 39.00%





Canada could you elaberate more on what all is involved in your taxes as i'm sure it is not all for health care. About what % of your tax goes to health care and what goes for other services.

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Funny thing is.. I've had folks toss up the fact that they are "independents" and not affiliated with a party to display their own enlightenment... I'm a registered republican but on these boards I've been called everything from Hitler to a Libertarian to a Kerry supporter...


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So lets elect people who will advocate federally funded healthcare and make us pay full price for EVERYTHING healthcare related ... brilliant!

You see what we are getting at here Pitt? Government Health care is taking two steps backwards in trying to solve the problem. It's a very short-sighted solution, which will cause much more problems than what it will solve.




Yes,I see EXACTLY what you're getting at. Like I said,I prefer we fix the current system. But you and I both know that won't happen.

And if you look at national health care in Canada or anywhere else,they DO negotiate drug prices.

Why do you think the same drugs are cheaper in Canada?


The perfect solution lies somewhere with a "middle ground". As it usually always does. Of course that would take government regulations that nobody wants either. But it would get things in line and keep health care in the private sector.

We're not going to solve this problem without some government oversight on this period. I think you're fully aware of that.

1. Put a cap on malpractice law suits.

2. Create stiff fines and penaltys on HMO's when they attempt to deny legitimate claims.

3. Have the U.S. government negotiate prescription drug prices with pharmaceutical companies and play as the middle man to help stop the price gouging on prescription drugs.

Now that's a damned fine start.

See,I'm not a party cronie. I don't think national health care is the best solution. Nor is letting this industry run ammuck the best solution. A middle ground can be reached that includes our government by regulation,but still keep the medical industry in the private sector.

But it will never happen.

Because conservatives will say it's too much regulation and the government has no business in it. And the liberals will say it "won't cure everything today". Me? I don't give a damn what the liberals or conservatives think! I want a workable solution to health care in America for all Americans. And I don't see extremism on either side of the aisle being either a legitimate or realistic way of solving this critical problem in our country.

That's what's wrong with this damned country today. There is no middle ground. Only us and them. Sadly,I see it every day.


So just in case anyone was confused about "what I think" (or even gives a damn) they now know..........



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Like I said,I prefer we fix the current system. But you and I both know that won't happen.



Well not with a defeatest attitude like that it won't.


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Well not with a defeatest attitude like that it won't.




I only have one vote DC. And I use it.


Maybe I should move to Florida. Oh no,wait,then I might lose that one.



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And if you look at national health care in Canada or anywhere else,they DO negotiate drug prices.

Why do you think the same drugs are cheaper in Canada?




Because Lawyers don't run amok in Canada!!! They also don't have illegal Mexican Immigrants looking for a free handout. Can we just leave Canada out of the equation?? We are not freaking Canada! If our tax rates are already 48% just like Canada's, then it will be that much WORSE with free health care. Our government wastes a LOT more money than they do, they don't have rampant lawsuits, they don't have near the number of mooching freeloaders with a sense of entitlement that our country does ... we're comparing apples to oranges.

The rest of your post, I sort of agree with. They need to work on some regulations from several angles ... but they should NOT be put in control of paying for it.

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We are not freaking Canada!



We're not?


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A good flat tax would not be made on essentials like groceries, housing, etc...so it would be on things that a lot of people without money shouldn't be spending 50% of their income on like shoes, purses, getting their nails done, iphones, bluetooths, etc...


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Can someone please tell me how universal healthcare is a "solution"?

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I haven't had health insurance for many years...going on 7 now...and I don't want free government healthcare.


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Just clickin Michelle


Ok I have a question. How many billions are businesses paying for employee health benefis now. I no I am constantly hearing from companies I have worked for about the rising cost of healthcare. If somehow we were able to work something like universal healthcare out wouldnt the businesses benefit greatly? People talk about the peoples taxes going up but in reality
wouldnt corporate dollars pay a huge chunk of the costs? Would the increase of tax on businesses be greater than what healthcare is costing them now


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Do not Canadians also pay most of these taxes? If so, your comparison actually proves nothing.




Yes. And their gand total,according to published reports ,of ALL of their taxes adding up to 48%.

This is ALL of our taxes!

It's called appleas and apples buddy.


They don't pay "48% in income taxes"


That's NOT what it said. Go back and read it. It said they pay "48% in taxes". That's their "entire tax burden". You know,the grand total of ALL the taxes they pay? Just like I'm doing here.


Comparing the taxes in both countries is fine. But you can't include ALL of these taxes they pay,and just make it "sound like" that's what they pay in "income tax".

They included "all tax money" paid by a Canadian". I'm simply saying,let's do the same with Americans to arrive at a fair comparison.





Therefore, what you're saying is that we already pay close to what the Canadians pay in taxes......and you want to add universal healthcare for everyone on top of that?


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What are the income tax rates in Canada for 2007?
Federal tax rates for 2007
Provincial/territorial tax rates for 2007
Federal tax rates for 2007 are:
15.5% on the first $37,178 of taxable income, +
22% on the next $37,179 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income between $37,178 and $74,357), +
26% on the next $46,530 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income between $74,357 and $120,887), +
29% of taxable income over $120,887.
The chart below reproduces the first calculation that has to be made on Page 1 of Schedule 1 of the tax package to calculate net federal tax. Page 1 is also used to calculate federal non-refundable tax credits.

Federal tax on taxable income manual calculation chart Use this column if your taxable income is $37,178 or less Use this column if your taxable income is more than $37,178, but not more than $74,357 Use this column if your taxable income is more than $74,357, but not more than $120,887 Use this column if your taxable income is more than $120,887
Enter your taxable income from line 260 of your return 1

Base amount − 0 − 37,178 − 74,357 − 120,887 2

Line 1 minus line 2 (this amount cannot be negative) = = = = 3

Federal tax rate × 15.5% × 22% × 26% × 29% 4

Multiply the amount on line 3 by the tax rate on line 4 = = = = 5

Tax on the amount from line 2 + 0 + 5,763 + 13,942 + 26,040 6

Add lines 5 and 6 = = = = 7


The calculation continues on Page 2 of Schedule 1 to determine net federal tax.


Top of page
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Provincial/Territorial tax rates for 2007
Under the current tax on income method, tax for all provinces (except Quebec) and territories is calculated the same way as federal tax.

Form 428 is used to calculate this provincial or territorial tax. Provincial or territorial specific non-refundable tax credits are also calculated on Form 428.

For complete details, see the Provincial or Territorial information and forms in your 2007 tax package.

Provincial / Territorial tax rates (combined chart) Provinces / Territories Rate(s)
Newfoundland and Labrador 9.64% on the first $29,886 of taxable income, +
14.98% on the next $29,886, +
17.26% on the amount over $59,772
Prince Edward Island 9.8% on the first $31,369 of taxable income, +
13.8% on the next $31,370, +
16.7% on the amount over $62,739
Nova Scotia 8.79% on the first $29,590 of taxable income, +
14.95% on the next $29,590, +
16.67% on the next $33,820 +
17.5% on the amount over $93,000
New Brunswick 10.12% on the first $34,186 of taxable income, +
15.48% on the next $34,188, +
16.8% on the next $42,787, +
17.95% on the amount over $111,161
Ontario 6.05% on the first $35,488 of taxable income, +
9.15% on the next $35,488, +
11.16% on the amount over $70,976
Manitoba 10.9% on the first $30,544 of taxable income, +
13% on the next $34,456, +
17.4% on the amount over $65,000
Saskatchewan 11% on the first $38,405 of taxable income, +
13% on the next $71,324, +
15% on the amount over $109,729
Alberta 10% of taxable income
British Columbia 5.7% on the first $34,397 of taxable income, +
8.65% on the next $34,397, +
11.1% on the next $10,190, +
13% on the next $16,925, +
14.7% on the amount over $95,909
Yukon 7.04% on the first $37,178 of taxable income, +
9.68% on the next $37,179, +
11.44% on the next $46,530, +
12.76% on the amount over $120,887
Northwest Territories 5.9% on the first $35,315 of taxable income, +
8.6% on the next $35,316, +
12.2% on the next $44,199, +
14.05% on the amount over $114,830
Nunavut 4% on the first $37,178 of taxable income, +
7% on the next $37,179, +
9% on the next $46,530, +
11.5% on the amount over $120,887

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tax/individuals/faq/taxrates-e.html

Canada
The tax on fuel in Canada can vary greatly between locales. On average, about one-third of the total price of gas at the pump is tax. Excise taxeson gasoline and diesel are collected both federal and provincial governments, as well as by some select municipalities (Montreal, Vancouver, and Victoria); with combined excise taxes varying from 16.2 ¢/L in the Yukon to 30.5 ¢/L in Vancouver. As well, the federal government and some provincial governments (Newfoundland and Labrador, Nova Scotia, and Quebec) collect sales tax (GST and PST) on top of the retail price and the excise taxes.




Gasoline Excise Taxes in Canada Government rate (¢/L) combined rate (¢/L)
Canada (Federal) 10.0 N/A
Newfoundland and Labrador 16.5 26.5
Prince Edward Island 20.9 30.9
Nova Scotia 15.5 25.5
New Brunswick 14.5 24.5
Quebec 15.2 25.2
Ontario 14.7 24.7
Manitoba 11.5 21.5
Saskatchewan 15.0 25.0
Alberta 9.0 19.0
British Columbia 14.5 24.5
The Yukon 6.2 16.2
The Northwest Territories 10.7 20.7
Montreal, QC 1.5 26.7
Vancouver, BC 6.0 30.5
Victoria, BC, 2.5 27.0


The Government of Canada collects about $5 billion per year in excise taxes on gasoline, diesel, and aviation fuel as well as approximately $1.6 billion per year from GST revenues on gasoline and diesel (net of input tax credits).

Collectively, the provincial governments collect approximately C$8 billion per year from excise taxes on gasoline and diesel.

Taxes collected by the federal government do not get reserved for any specific program. However, provincial taxes usually go to fund road repair and construction.

Many Canadians cross into the United States to buy fuel due to lower fuel tax south of the line.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_tax

The federal government levies a multi-stage sales tax of 6% on goods and services (7% prior to 1 July 2006), that is called the Goods and Services Tax (GST), and, in some provinces, the Harmonized Sales Tax (HST). The GST/HST is similar to a value-added tax. The Conservative Party of Canada's 2006 election platform proposed to eventually reduce the GST to 5% (after an initial reduction to 6%).

All provincial governments except Alberta levy sales taxes as well. The provincial sales taxes of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Newfoundland and Labrador are harmonized with the GST. That is, a rate of 14% HST (15% prior to 1 July 2006) is charged instead of separate PST and GST. Both Quebec and Prince Edward Island apply provincial sales tax to the sum of price and GST. The territories of Nunavut, Yukon and Northwest Territories do not charge provincial sales tax because they are territories.

Provincial and federal sales tax rates at the retail level on goods and some services are as follows:

Alberta:......................0 + 6% = 6%
British Columbia:..........7% + 6% = 13%
Manitoba:....................7% + 6% = 13%
Ontario:.......................8% + 6% = 14%
Prince Edward Island:..10% + 6% = 16.6% (PST applied to price + GST)
Quebec:..................... 7.5% + 6% = 13.95% (PST applied to price + GST)
Saskatchewan:............5% + 6% = 11%

[edit] Property taxes
The municipal level of government is funded largely by property taxes on residential, industrial and commercial properties. These account for about ten percent of total taxation in Canada.


[edit] Excise taxes
Both the federal and provincial governments impose excise taxes on inelastic goods such as cigarettes, gasoline, alcohol, and for vehicle air conditioners. A great bulk of the retail price of cigarettes and alcohol are excise taxes. The vehicle air conditioner tax is currently set at $100 per air conditioning unit. Canada has some of the highest rates of taxes on cigarettes and alcohol in the world. These are sometimes referred to by Canadians as "sin taxes".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Canada

Now this isn't all the taxes in Canada but if you add these up I have a hard time believing they are only 48%. The thing I haven't found is the average salaries for workers in Ontario. That is a province that resembles the Ohio area.


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Wow. That's enlightening. I had no idea the provincial taxes were that high. It also looks like Ontario is at the high end for the other taxes. I know smokes, gasoline and motor vehicles are taxed considerably more than they are in the US. Air conditioner tax? sheesh.

I wonder if there's any way to research what the average Ontario resident pays in taxes annually, and what percentage of the total tax goes to socialized medicine. We'd have to increase that percentage here due to huge number of immigrants, frivolous litigation and a couple generations of entitled abusers to get an idea for what it would cost..


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couple generations of entitled abusers to get an idea for what it would cost..




what is a entitled abuser??


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I don't want a system that our government runs. Period.




Amen to that. Can anybody that's ever had to deal with the government bureaucracy at any level - local, county, state, or federal - honestly say they want those kind of people running their healthcare? These people couldn't organize a 3-car funeral parade, many would be virtually unemployable in the private sector, and some people want to give them control of nearly 15% of the economy - and the health of themselves and their families?

Holy crap.

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"...Maybe I should move to Florida. Oh no,wait,then I might lose that one."

And all this time you had us convinced that you were actually literate enough to read and sharp enough to follow the directions given to vote.

Man I can just imagine the bitchin' coming from some folks if the gov't goes to the "single payer" system for health care. The major oldline corporations struggling under the burdens of ancient union health care contracts will be freed from most of those premium burdens...now GM and Ford will be placed on an even footing premium wise with Toyoya etc. Their corporate taxes will rise evenly with all other corps. but their overhead in the health insurance premiums will be negated. Sounds good to me...see how long it takes for the unions to strike for higher wages since the corp. has more freed up money.
Higher wages ...no more productivity...wages naturally rise throughout the service industry...more taxes to collect. Sounds like a win win situation for the tax and spenders ON BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE. Once again the middle class will take the majority of the hit with individual tax increases on their labor...how nice.

No thanks...Postal Dept. initiative and emotionless treatment at the E.R.--how nice.


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what is a entitled abuser??




The segment of our population that feels the government owes them a living and is responsible for their well-being. The ones that feel that a minor headache, cold or scratch warrants a trip to the emergency room at taxpayer expense because they don't want to be inconvenienced by the local clinics. The people that claim suicidal ideations to get 3 hots and a cot in a hospital bed until the first of the month when the new check comes in the mail because they blew through the last one.....etc.


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Quote:

what is a entitled abuser??




The segment of our population that feels the government owes them a living and is responsible for their well-being. The ones that feel that a minor headache, cold or scratch warrants a trip to the emergency room at taxpayer expense because they don't want to be inconvenienced by the local clinics. The people that claim suicidal ideations to get 3 hots and a cot in a hospital bed until the first of the month when the new check comes in the mail because they blew through the last one.....etc.





You do realize the ones you are talking about already have goverment ran health insurance ? Very good health insurance at that.


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And I assume that you realize that you are paying for it, right?

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A lot of them don't. They just come into the hospital, know that they're not going to pay and laugh when they get the bill. They know we don't turn anyone away.

The one's that have Medicaid on the other hand, have much better insurance than I do....and then complain when we don't pick up the copays on prescriptions the doctors write.


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And I assume that you realize that you are paying for it, right?




Yes I do and thats why I said it.

I dont know how I feel about universal healthcare. I see both sides. On one hand Pit is right that something needs to be done but I am very hesitant to think that our goverment could get it right

I will say this though. The Medicaid system is run very well, If it was posible to do that on a much larger basis and it was fiscally possible I would be all for it.

Like I said I dont think our goverment could do that.

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The one's that have Medicaid on the other hand, have much better insurance than I do....and then complain when we don't pick up the copays on prescriptions the doctors write.




I had medicaid for a short time when I lost my job and didnt have health insurance for a period while I was doing my probation at my new job. I had no co pays on prescips and no charges on doctors visits. I was actually in the hospital for a few days with a infection in my leg and never even saw a bill. Caresource pyed every penny of it. Thats why I said people with Medicaid have waaaay bettwe insurance thanwhat I have now and I hve good health insurance.


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I have medicare, and also some heafty bills. It's not so bad when I hit my spend down but it is no where near what I had at the phone company. I do get relief of perscription drugs but it doesn't go far when one of the drugs is over $800 a month.


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Quote:

I have medicare, and also some heafty bills. It's not so bad when I hit my spend down but it is no where near what I had at the phone company. I do get relief of perscription drugs but it doesn't go far when one of the drugs is over $800 a month.




So you pay 9600 a year on a limited income?
How is that working for you you in the "richest" nation in the world who claims to be the "world leader" in "humanitarianism"?

Let's see,so far I've heard..............

We can't afford it because of "illegal aliens". So somehow,our fedaeral government not enforcing their laws,should equate to "legal Americans" doing without health care?

I've heard excuses about the "tax burden". But take your TOTAL taxes you pay NOW,and add P's 9600 to it!


Oh,I keep forgetting,you'll never get old or sick long term.


Fix it or scrap it. Time is getting pretty damned short on even having THAT choice!

I don't make the news,I just report it.

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As usual, I didn't go far enough in my post. my actual monthly drug costs were close to $1200 a month. I didn't have to pay that much because of the way the program is set up and my dosages are still changing. When the bills get that high it does eat away at the amount of benefits you recieve. I no longer pay $800 for that one drug.After we found out how much it went up I looked at ways of going off of it. It has done wonders for me and my wife was not going to allow me to ditch it. I found out (by accident) that I could get the same drug from the pharmacy for $131. I was taking 200mg a day in 25mg tablets. By increasing tablet size to 1 200 mg tablet the cost dropped. Nobody bothered to tell me until I started to ask a lot of questions. The fact is if I still had my plan wthat I had at the phone company I would have never even known. Since I haven't reached my optimum dosage this will still change. I guess I should have mentioned it sooner as a public service but I never thought of it. There are programs through the hospital where I can get drugs cheaper but the resources are limited so I leave those for people who are less fortunate. I was blessed to have a good job for many years and that is making it possible to live on a fixed income that is pretty generous. My wife will be able to work full time in a year (she is a teacher) and things will become much eaiser. The system now does need fixed and anyone who says different has their head in the sand. To throw it away and go to socialized medicine IMO will make things worse. Sure it will help me but it would put a huge burden on the rest of you.


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Quote:

I have medicare, and also some heafty bills.




Medicaid and medicare are completely different. People on Medicaid pay absolutely nothing including prescriptions.

KING


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Quote:

We can't afford it because of "illegal aliens". So somehow,our fedaeral government not enforcing their laws,should equate to "legal Americans" doing without health care?





This thread started with a comparison to Canada's system, and it was pointed out that our costs for a similar plan would be much greater due in part to the illegal immigrant problem. The differences in our societies would add a much greater financial burden to the US taxpayers.

Quote:

I've heard excuses about the "tax burden". But take your TOTAL taxes you pay NOW,and add P's 9600 to it!





Well, you said that our current total taxes are similar to what Canadians are paying... and they have universal health care. We'll all be adding P's 9600 to it, and then some if the govenment is in charge of aministering the program.

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Oh,I keep forgetting,you'll never get old or sick long term.




Yeah, I've heard a lot of people say that on this thread.

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Fix it or scrap it. Time is getting pretty damned short on even having THAT choice!




As many have said, nobody's denying the problems. Most feel that a government run free healthcare program is not the fix.


And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir

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I don't feel it's "the fix" either j.

The problem being,more and more Americans are getting fed up with nothing being done to control the current system. They see that the spiraling costs continue to mount,42,000,000 Americans have "no healthcare" and they're simply tired of watching that continue with nothing being done at address it.

That's why I feel that unless drastic measures aren't taken soon,very soon,that the majority of people in our country will just get sick and tired of this current system being permitted to run ammuck and vote in candidates that will adopt and pass national health care.

If the current system isn't fixed,I feel the American voters and the people they elect will make all of our opinions a moot point. We all recognise what's wrong with the current system. We all know measures that could and should be adopted to help improve the current system. The problem is that nobody is doing anything about it.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Quote:

Quote:

I have medicare, and also some heafty bills.




Medicaid and medicare are completely different. People on Medicaid pay absolutely nothing including prescriptions.

KING




Yes, I know. My kids have medicaid and there is huge waste in that program. Instead of going to the doctor you can just go to one of the hospitals or urgent care facilities. There should be some detourent for this.


#gmstrong
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