DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... A question about Christians

It's no secret I'm an Atheist and that's why I'm asking this question. I hope everyone will share their take on it with me so I can understand what justifies the behavior.

For quite a while now I've been noticing a common thread in many legal and social debates/arguments regarding being a christian. It seems like whenever there is a question about character that the response of being a christian somehow paints one in a positive light.

It's often stated as "good christian" like it's a badge of honor. And in almost all instances where I see this remark used to defend somebody it seems like being a christian just assumes an inference that one is a good person or acted in a good character way.

Sorry, but this gives me a total 'WTF?' moment every time I read or hear it being said. I mean who decided that being a christian or part of any religion or ideology automatically makes you inherently a good person? I think that is just insane! Am I the only one? Is it just me?

Discuss.

I've always taken a good Christian to be one who is good in the context of being Christian. Some may conflate it with objective good, but it's not the same.

Many good Christians are against gay marriage because of the Bible's teaching. I would consider them good Christians in the sense of their beliefs, not by current secular sentiment. They do not bend to secular will in this case. A bad Christian would be one who reads the Bible but says homosexuality is OK, for instance.

Only God is good. Christians who claim to be "good" have lost their way because the Bible teaches that none of us our righteous. Romans 3:10

That being said, you can be good at following Christian principles and a Christian lifestyle. Not perfect but good at it. Being a person who obeys the 10 commandments is almost always someone you will think is a good person and that the average citizen will view as trustworthy since they are people who place a high value on being truthful.

It is also a fact that Christians donate more money and time to charities and the poor than non-religious folks. Why? Because we view it as part of our duty to serve God's people.

Matthew 25:35-40
35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,[a] you did it to me.’

So if you are a "GOOD" Christian then you are generous and honest at the least.

The problem you see is that Christians are still just human beings. They are not perfect and they mess up. Also, there are a lot of people who claim to be Christian but when you look at their actions it's clear that they are NOT Christians because they don't live their lives according to God's will but according to their own. They are what I call social club Christians who just claim to be Christian to fit in socially or to make business connections. They will come to church but when they leave the church they like to pick and choose what commandments they like to follow and act just like secularist. They are just as lost as all the other secularist are too because just going to a building and hanging out with people doesn't mean they are real Christians. It doesn't mean they have ill intentions either but just that they haven't been called to God just yet.

Most of those you think of when you think of Christians who do all the same bad things non Christians do belong to that social club group. The difference between a social club Christian and a "GOOD" christian is usually obvious which is why we can differentiate that way.

Those who are real Christians have felt and experienced the presence of God. It's real and palpable. It doesn't leave room for doubt. You know God is real because you feel his presence. I don't blame anyone for not having faith in God because until he calls you to him you won't feel a darn thing. Once he calls you though you won't ever forget it and you better be ready because he doesn't always come knocking a second time even though his door is always open.

Anyways you asked a question so I hope that answers it.

Probably 5 major branches, of the teachings of one Jesus,

Everyone claims to be right, the irony of “can’t we all just get along?”

Mortal Kombat, Christians, vs Catholics, vs Presbyterians, the message gets lost,

be good

I'm not a Christian, good or otherwise, but I am a damn nice guy. Do I get a badge?

My dad is a good Christian by Razor’s definition.
He closed minded. He’s strongly opinionated. And in being this way he’s driven most of the people that love him, his kids, away. But at least he has God and salvation. Or at least that’s what he says when he tells us in so many words that were all going to Hell.

Being a Christian myself I don't believe being one makes my character any better than anybody elses, be it another Christain, an Atheist, agnostic. Us Christians are no better or worse than anybody else.

Any person, Any, can come to Christ before they leave this life, and be saved. However, there will be those who will choose not to, refuse to do so, and God won't force them into heaven. God will give them their heart's desires, and cast them out of his presence.

Straight from Wikipedia:

The biblical teachings of Jesus include:[3]

Love of God and Neighbors: "You shall love the Lord your God with all of your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might." (an excerpt from the Shema Deut.6:5), -Matthew 22:37 This is the first half of the statement, and the second half, given equal weight, is "love your neighbor as yourself" upon which hang all the Law and all the prophets. -Matthew 22:36-40
Fidelity in marriage: "Whom God has joined together let no man put asunder", derived from -Matthew 19:6
Renunciation of worldly goods: "Gather not your riches up upon this earth, for there your heart will be also", (Matthew 6:21)
Renunciation of vengeance: "If a man strikes you on one cheek, turn the other cheek", (Luke 6:29)
Forgiveness of sins: "Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us", (Matthew 6:12)
Unconditional love: "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." (Luke 6:27-28)

Seems that anyone who exudes these qualities would be judged as good whether they were a Christian or not. If there was no evidence of them going to church or having a relationship with God, would we still not call them a good person?

What's the hang-up really?

I mean who decided that being a christian or part of any religion or ideology automatically makes you inherently a good person?

In short - nobody! Most people see right through it when the person's history and everyday deeds don't back it up.

Everybody has their own idealogical structure.

But you can never obey them 100%. Never. Not according to the way Jesus taught, especially. He said that if you look upon a woman to lust after her, you have committed adultery. If you even consider having sex outside of Biblical marriage, you have committed adultery.


If you are angry with your neighbor you have murdered him in your heart.

Read the New Testament Gospels, and you will see His teachings.

He told 2 different people to go and sin no more. He didn't say "return to the sinful life you were living".

If you revere anything above God, a career, a house, money, anything, you are in rebellion against God. e are to love God with everything we are.

That's why God gave the 10 Commandments to a rebellious Jewish people, and it's why He then required a sacrifice for unintentional violation of His Law.

He also forgave those who truly and completely repented of their sins, with a contrite heart, like David, even before the time of Christ upon the earth.

Jesus Christ came to be the eternal sacrifice for sin. He heals those who turn to Him. He washes away our sins. He makes it as though we never sinned. He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man goes to God the Father except through Jesus Christ.

No man is good. No one. No one can be washed clean of their sins, without Christ. No one, no matter how man "good" things they do upon this earth.

People can refuse the gift of salvation, and that lead to (voluntary) damnation. The unrepentant sinner will be allowed to leave (be cast out) of God's presence. They will be allowed to be their own God, which of course will lead to nothing but suffering of their own making.

This is all in the Bible. All it takes is an open heart to see. Unfortunately, as Jesus said, in Matthew: Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says: “‘You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive. For this people's heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.’

God doesn't force anyone to turn to Him, to accept Christ, and to ask forgiveness. He gave us free will to decide for ourselves. You get to decide your own fate, whether you see it, or hear it, or not.

If we're going to talk about annoying things Christians do, let's talk about how they think they have an omnipotent God and still think they have free will.

God knows the outcome, but He allows us to get there ourselves. He knows what we'll decide, but doesn't make us decide.

That exactly is how you don't have free will.

Oh but it is.

God knows everything that will happen, but that doesn't mean that He forces us to where we will go.

So we have a lame duck god then? Dude sounds like a lazy bum.

You have the free will to decide as you will for yourself.

om·nip·o·tent
ˌämˈnipəd(ə)nt/
adjective
adjective: omnipotent

1.
(of a deity) having unlimited power; able to do anything.

I don't understand how people equate this with everything being written in stone. Having unlimited power would certainly give God the opportunity to let one make choices and decide their own fate, in accordance with the paths that were offered. Does that really seem far-fetched?

The teachings of Christ show you how to be a good moral person.

So therefore if you are diligent in following his teachings, you would be a good person.

Does this mean that all Christians are good people? Certainly not.

Does it mean that Athiests are incapable of being good moral people? Certainly not.

I have a dog and am a horrible dog walker. I let him lead the way on the leash and smell spots for ungodly amounts of time. However we stick to the same route daily.

Does the Dog have free will to travel?

It would also allow God to look into future events. Thus stripping us of our free will.

No, your dog doesn't have free will to travel. You have him on a leash.

Terrible comparison.

A better comparison, when talking 'free will", and omnipotence, would be "I know what this dog is going to do, well before he does it. (unleashed, that is)

It's a very deep concept, and one I have struggled with over the years.



I can make my own decisions. I believe God KNOWS what decisions I'll make, while still allowing me to decide.


Again, it's a very complex thing, and as I said, one I struggle with.

if god knows what decisions you're gonna make, then it doesn't sound like free will.

but i get it. if there was actually free will...that would mean either god doesn't exist, or dude is indeed a lame duck God.

bring back the god that was flooding the earth and all that. reading the bible, dude sounded metal as hell. definitely a violent god that wants all his believers to fear him.

and since he's fear-based, then he needs to get off his ass and start scaring people into believing him again. not acting some chick with short hair demanding to speak to the manager.

It is free will. He just knows what choice you're going to make, before you make it. It's still you're choice.

oh, so god is a psychic.

you know they get sued all the time for fraud, right?

If he/she/it is omnipotent, wouldn't the psychic trait be a given?

probably, but an all powerful god not using his power whatsoever is....well, lame duck.

Think of the leash as a physical manifestation of time. But yeah, it's a simple analogy. Like all analogies.

J/C

Just putting this out there as a theoretical...

Or God doesn't experience time the same way humans do. Is God everywhere and everywhen? You have freewill but God is seeing it all at once, and, thus he knows everything. God knows what you're going to do in your future because he's already there.

If you accept that God is "all seeing", why limit it to the present?

Because when you reach a future event, and God knows what you're going to do, then you're not operating on your own free will. You may experience an illusion of free will, but it's not free will. If it was, then it wouldn't be predetermined.

Even when you take your dog for a walk on a leash, you don't require him to walk a straight line, exactly where you want him to. He walks side to side, picking up scents, and I bet you usually allow that. Your dog could also try to run off if he gets the smell of something, or sees something he feels he has to chase. You may have a path chosen, but he could get off the leash, and choose something different.

Anyway, the verse I quoted above stands. (another Gospel)

Mark 4:11-12 - so that, "'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"

I have to disagree with that.

God isnt bound by time and space.

How can you assert an omnipotent being, who created time and space doesnt know the future.

Regardless of what choice you make. Clearly you are going to make a choice of some kind.

OR if you want to get into Quantum Mechanics, the Many Worlds Theory states that a new universe is spawned for each possible outcome of a choice,

So maybe you made all the choices.

So you even agree that the dog not truly have free will while on the leash.

The question isn't "Does God gave free will" it's "do humans have free will", which is exactly why we're focusing on temporal relationships based on causation. Instead of thinking of the human experience as a subject, think of it as an object.

Ok, lets think of this a different way.

In the bible there is the concept of "You reap what you sow"
Or, in Athiest speak, Karma.

God doesnt want you to do evil, so why would he make you choose the evil choice? Why wouldnt he make you be some do-gooding puppet?

If you dont have free will? Because clearly, life is not the Stepford Wives.

Isn’t the idea of my religion, is basically my way, or the highway, the antithesis of the core values of any religion?

I mean, people say, if you don’t believe in my god, you are going to hell. I thought the core values of any respectable religion were, don’t be a jerk.

The core of Judeo-Christianity is that there is one God, and only one God.

Jesus taught that He is the only way to the Father. He said that "no man comes to the father except by Me."

This is what I absolutely and completely believe, and I speak about it because I want people to be saved, not to be a jerk.

Yep.

How do you feel about Muslims, not you in particular, but are they wrong and you are right? Not trying to pick a fight, at times people present these as direct conflicting ideologies.

Well, Islam misunderstands the concept of the 3 in 1 Trinity God, saying that the Trinity is actually God, Mary, and Jesus. They claim the same God of Abraham, but based on my understanding of the religion, and I probably know as much or more than most do, it's not the same God. The reason I just listed is just one reason. The fact that anyone "could" make it to the Islamic heaven, but it's not based on belief, or good deeds, or anything except an arbitrary decision by their god. Our God says that people will not be given in marriage in heaven, (and that would rule out sex as we know it) while Islam promises virgins to those who kill unbelievers. There are others, but these should provide some basic differences.