DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2018 NFL Season Looking Back: Browns 23 Buccaneers 26 Different slant on Mayfield's no-call on helmet to helmet hit

I haven't seen this mentioned regarding Baker's head being hit on the slide yesterday, but watching this live action on TV, without time to think my reaction was …

First, other than worrying if he was OK was yes, yes, yes 15 yard penalty for hit to head or at least late hit after QB sliding. I have never seen this not called that way.

My second instant reaction when baker got up was, oh crap, he just screwed up and will get an unsportsmanlike penalty for tossing the ball at the tackler (taunting), making them offsetting.

I was very surprised Baker was not called because I have seen much less generate a taunting call, Pryor's handing the ball to the ref and it accidentally hitting the defender very softly, taunting call against Baltimore a few years ago comes to mind.

It makes my conspiracy mind wonder if the refs knew they could not get away making that call when they were going to pick up the other flag for the late hit, hit to the head.

Was anyone else waiting for a taunting call on Baker then?

yep, i was too ... i thought it would be offsetting at the worst. However, I thought when they huddled they'd say "well, he taunted because it was warranted ... total cheap shot" ... NOPE, no call

He was a running back at that point and helmet to helmet is allowed

He was sliding, gave himeslef up, and hit in the head.

Also, the new RULE this year is you are not allowed to lead with your helmet, which he did.




The player lead with his helmet, -foul.

He then hit the head of a defensless player (baker sliding) - foul

I would argue it was a late hit as he was sliding - foul

Baker got up and reacted to getting hitting hit in the head was not taunting in my eyes, he was reacting to a dirty shot.

He tossed the ball to the ref.

I did not think it should have been taunting myself either, but with our luck I assumed it was coming.

They actually had 5 official discussing this for over 30 seconds and came up with this explanation

I quote

"The quaterback was still a runner and therefore is allowed to be hit in the head. He had not yet begun his slide therefore there was no penalty"

I know, but I thought the toss was close enough to the vicinity of the tackler that taunting could get called. Again, based on history of calls or non-calls we have seen this year.

The simple fact is that they teach QB's to go down before they actually need to go down. This was a bonehead play by Mayfield, he wasn't trying to get a 1st, he had already gotten all of what he could out of that play.....


go down early like they teach you to Bake and save yourself the concussion.

I'm still in shock that the words "can be hit in the head" were ever uttered by an NFL official... and over the sound system, no less.

I doubt it, but I hope that gets a lot of replay. Browns lost, but the refs sucked too. It's so frustrating watching the same crews of refs go out there every week and suck it up in one form or another.... rinse, repeat in 7 days.

I just got back from lunch. Dean Blandino was on XM, and he clarified that it's never ok to hit in the head, and never ok to lead with the helmet. Shocking, I know....

Dean is also a funny guy. He said it's not the first time he's disagreed with refs during a Browns game this season, "but at least they didn't get my reaction on camera this time". I chuckled.

“The quarterback was still a runner and therefore is allowed to be hit in the head. He had not yet begun his slide. There is no foul.”

JC

He threw the ball directly to the ref and has every reason to be pissed. There is a difference between taunting and being mad, players are given a leash that usually extends to contact (or further) when they're mad about a hit.

As far as sliding late? Not in today's NFL, opposing players are actually somehow expected to anticipate a slide, well, at least that's how the Browns are always judged. Besides, he's running through traffic and wasn't focused on that defender, the second he saw him he started sliding. You can't win in this league playing scared so I see zero reason to criticize Baker for this play.


Earlier this year the NFL claimed that their biggest point of emphasis would be helmet contact:

*doesn't matter who, offense or defense, no player can use his helmet to initiate contact

*doesn't matter where on the body contact is made.

*plays may be reviewed, players maybe ejected...


Standards for ejection from the NFL website...
The player lowers his helmet to establish a linear body posture prior to initiating and making contact with the helmet;
The player delivering the blow had an unobstructed path to his opponent; and if
The contact was clearly avoidable


Player should have been ejected for targeting. Period.

But the simple fact is no matter what baker did, that was a penalty regardless......

Well not last Sunday against the Browns it wasnt.

I agree, but it was a dumb hit to take and we would KILL a guy like RG3 for taking it.

When I watched it live, I actually thought the flag was for taunting. Then the replay came then I knew it wasn't. Then there wasn't even a flag...

Hitting a QB in the head with a helmet is allowed if he is a Cleveland Brown.

next game we should just aim straight for the head of every person running with the ball I guess

Yup.
Just start taking out all of their better players. War of attrition.

j/c

After that play, myself and the 2 guys I was watching the game with.............well, let's just say, we had fun with it.

Came up with scenarios in which the Browns would be penalized, or situations where the bucs wouldn't be penalized. Such as: I really think, if a Browns player was running with the ball, towards the endzone, and a buc came off the bench to make a tackle, the call would be: "There is no flag for leaving the bench to make a tackle. The Browns player was running un impeded towards the end zone. We are not allowed to let the Browns do that. And, upon further review, the Browns will be penalized 30 yards."

Sorry folks. Bad/missed calls happen. It's the nature of the game. But dang, it seems the Browns get bit quite often.

It was even worse than a non-call; it was called then overturned upon discussion. It is rare to see a hit like that not called in favor of a QB. It is even rarer for the call to be overturned. The Browns have a long way to go to get to winning football and many of their penalties yesterday were self-inflicted, but they have been victimized by several bad calls and non calls this year.

He worded it HORRIBLY ... here’s the rule ...

If the runner iniates the head to head contact ... ie he lowers his head as does the defender so its kind of a “mutual” thiing ... thats what they ruled ... therefore it was a “legal” helmet to helmet ... this rule is so HARD TO OFFICIATE .... its so hard ...

They get to watch it once at full speed ... if they could re-watch it like we can they’d have called it ...

Did they mess it .. yup ... i won’t get all over them for that one ... its very hard to get right the first time ... is not like the “fumble” in the faider game or the spot in that game or missing the LT moving or a few of the other way’s we’ve been hosed this year ...

This ones just not like those at all ...

I agree with this except that they DID call it. Then, still with only the one live view to go on, huddled up and overturned it. In the grand scheme not a huge deal and I concede the difficulty of catching it correctly at full speed, but FWIW anecdotally, it seems QBs always get those calls (again Baker got the call and it was changed).

C'mon Dawgs.. the refs can't even catch a 300 Lb tackle kicking back a full second before the snap let alone a split second slide.

My initial thought watching it was that yes he took a hard hit, but he hadn't gotten quite so far as to establish his slide. When he popped up I thought he was going to get hit for taunting (and honestly I was like, there's the Mayfield attitude people were concerned about from college. If that had been what it was, I would have been fine with it. I always wished we had a QB who had the brass ones to jaw and back it up).

Having said that, in a league that alleges to err on the side of protecting the QB, I have no doubt if it was the same hit and most any other QB the flag would have stood.

Baker should have taken the ball and shoved it down the throat of the official who made that BS call.


In a kind manner, of course.

Another thought, there were 5 count them 5 officials discussing this and deciding this was the correct call. How is it possible that not one of them could know one of the main rules the NFL has been stressing this year?

World of difference between a RB or RB lowering his head to bulldoze through a tackle - which is what I believe the rule is intended for - and a QB going into a slide, leaning back with his head away from the direction he was running.

And no matter what the situation - the defender is not allowed to lead with the crown of his head.

It's not hard. Yes they blew it and yes it was at full speed, but it was as obvious a penalty as the two false starts that have been missed the last 2 games.

It is hard ... the fact u think its even remotely close to the same thing as a false start tells me u clearly have no idea you don’t know what u don’t know ...

Wasn't leading with the helmet supposed to be a point of emphasis this year? He completely led with his helmet - QB or not that should have been a penalty, especially helmet to helmet. Did I misunderstand something when this was stated before the season?

No you were correct.

And Diam - please go back and reread .... I didn't say one was one penalty was like the other. But nice try

Nope ... theres another rule that mucks that one up ... guys ... im not guessing at this ... u read one rule in the rule book and think u have it covered ... u don’t ...

Yes ... leading with the helmet is a no no ... it was a point of emphasis this year .... theres also an out in that if the defender starts his tackling motion and the runner lowers his head and in the officials judgement Yates was the impetus of the helmet to helmet there is no penalty ...

I also said they missed it and if they could look at the tape like we can they’d have overturned it and called it ...

That’s HARD in real time when u only get one look ... u guys seem to think thats easy ... ITS NOT!!!!!!

Gee ... where would i get the idea u thought one penalty was like the other from the above .... hmmmmm ... u think my conclusion was some how gumbiesque ...

This is where your argument falls flat on it's face. The "point of emphasis", as you stated, as laid out by the NFL, came with an impetus, and that was for officials during the game to go to REPLAY. Go to REPLAY to make sure player safety is insured, go to REPLAY to make sure the penalty was administered correctly.

I admire your whole crusade to stand up for officials and tell us all we're nuts, but these cats aren't even doing their jobs the way they're supposed to be done. It's one thing to suck at it, it's quite another to be oblivious to the duties at hand.

Even worse, they make a mockery of themselves by gathering in a circle-jerk while one alpha male explains to the others why he's making the call he is... under the guise of "working together" to find the right answer.

More drivel from someone whose more than likely NEVER BLOWN A WHISTLE much less ever done it officiating a sport ....

Just plain flat out IGNORANCE from someone who has NO CLUE what they don’t know ...

Once again ... i’ll Bow out of this utter waste of time ...

Anyone have any questions or wants to take issue with me .. pm me ... posting in here will fall on deaf ears if I’m your intended “target” ...

Bye Bye dawgs ...

Enjoy and Have fun ....

Haha. Good stuff. Just reading the rules as the NFL has established them. They're the ones who made the big charade about protecting players this year.

Go back to your cave and worship your Golden Whistle Award you won for peewee football. I gave you all the clues, you can't connect the dots.

Buh-bye.

Ok, but their explanation is what calls BS on them.

They Explained baker was running and does not get the benefit of his slide as he is a runner. So they admitted he was sliding then no?

Then they said he is allowed to get hit in the head - your not. lol

And you said the runner has to initiate contact - bakers head was behind him as he was sliding, he was not lowering his shoulder. Real time or not, anyone can see that that is not legally blind.

Also, the new rule in the NFL is NO ONE can initiate contact with their helmet lowered. The defender hit him head first with his head down.

The Refs had 3 opportunities for a foul on this play.

Defender leading with his helmet
Head to head contact
Hit on a defenseless player

They instead chose to pick up the flag and give a explanation that was crap and completely buried themselves with it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing with you on this. I was just laying out what my initial reaction to the play was. I know 99 out of 100 times the flag is going to fly on any hit similar to that. I also know that we've seen plenty of clean helmet to chest hits that have been called foul and the flag not picked up because the refs are going to err on the side of player safety and base the call on what they were pretty sure they saw.

And you're right, the BS explanation is what makes it way worse. They probably would have been better off just not throwing it to begin with.

Sure, sorry if I came off as confrontational, that was not my intent.

I just don't see how anyone can say they even made a mistake, when their explanation of the play hangs them.

There is no other reason for this other than A. They don't the know the RULES or B. They did not want to give the Browns the 15 yards.

Its one thing to be in real time and miss a call. that's going to happen these plays are lightening fast. But the REF STATED he was hit in the head. Just him stating that proves it was a penalty and should be a flag. he also said he was a "runner" and does not benefit for defenseless player which means the REF admitted he was sliding at the time.