DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum O-Line

I want to ask some of you Dawgs who know the o-line to explain some stuff to me.

I clearly see good Baker and bad Baker. What seems consistent in distinguishing the 2 (to me anyways) is the shape of the offensive line when he drops back. Wish I could draw it out for you guys but i will try to explain as best I can with words.

When I see good Baker, the line is like a crescent moon. This allows him good vision and opens up throwing lanes. Much of the 2nd half of last game.

When I see bad Baker, the o-line seems to surround him and collapse on itself from all directions. He doesn't even have enough room to fully extend his arm when throwing. This seems to happen pretty quickly. Most of the 1st half of last game.

(Note, I use last game as examples because there was such a demarcation, but it seems to me to have been a pattern throughout all the games).

My questions are:

1, Why does this happen? Is it out o-line scheme? Their d-line scheme? Or are our linemen just getting overpowered?

2, What can we do about this to get more of the good Baker line?

interesting insights.

I'll have to watch for this.

Today, I learned an interesting stat.

Cleveland's line has won its pass blocks by 2.5 seconds 62 percent of the time, the second-best rate in the NFL.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/25055...ep-all-32-teams

I think some of the issue is that Baker is just holding onto the ball too long.

That begs the question as to why he holds it too long. Is he confused by what he sees? Are the receivers not getting open? Or is it because of the o-line? The o-line collapses upon itself and he feels smothered. He is unable to see down the field and unable to find room to get a good throw off.

keithfromxenia was at the game and commented that the receivers were having trouble getting open...not a surprise given the WRs we have available at the moment. (I've known keith for a long time...he's a smart sports fan FWIW.)

I'm no expert, but Baker has made some ridiculously great throws and has found an open receiver an awful lot for a rookie. I don't think he suddenly loses the talent to read and react when holding the ball "too long"...I think the receivers just aren't getting open. (Of course that's not the case EVERY time...but he's been too good at finding the open guy to suddenly lose that ability on so many downs. JMO)

which makes me wonder why we don't do more RPO with some short throws and let him get the ball out and get a rhythm

8-14 isn't all that bad, like him to throw it away and not take sacks is all.



The tackles really struggle, many times this year they are giving up inside pressure from their tackle spots, collapsing the pocket prematurely so Baker steps up right into a sack.

Baker Mayfield's sacks: Is he holding onto the ball too long? Film Room

https://www.cleveland.com/expo/sports/er...art_river_index

Sweet link Grateful but long
I won't get chance to look at it until probably tomorrow

That’s showing he’s regressed a bit and playing more like a rookie. Though his knock in college is ignoring the underneath stuff. Hopefully they coach it out of him

Look at play #7, that is what I am seeing when I refer to the bad Baker o-line. They way the defensive line seems to surround him then the pocket implodes. It isn't always as fast as it was in this particular play but when it happens Baker looks like he feels the pressure, even when the pressure isn't getting to him.

I think it is a combination of things.

--The OL does a good job at times and it does get beat at times. That's fairly common around the NFL. There are terrible OLs, like the Cardinals and Giants. There are very good OLs, like the Steelers. But most have their ups and downs.

--Baker does well when his first read is open. He zips it out there quickly. He struggles when that guy isn't open. He wasn't asked to make multiple quick reads in college and it's been an issue.

--The receivers probably struggle to get open at times. There aren't a ton of guys w/much experience. I did see Landry open a lot against LA, but Baker never saw him. But, I imagine guys are being covered at other times. Hard to tell on TV.

We are a young team w/a lot of new pieces. It's going to take time to develop. I think it's promising, but we are not there yet.

I believe what you're seeing is a mixture of many things:

In some cases, receivers aren't getting open, Baker hangs onto the ball hoping someone will create separation.

The OL can only hold their blocks for so long.

Baker isn't seeing the field like a pro yet, doesn't see the open man.

Baker and his WR's haven't developed chemistry to the point where he knows exactly where everyone will be, still needs to "search them out".

Baker locks on to his primary, on occasion. Holds onto the ball too long.

In most cases where Baker gets rid of the ball in under three seconds, the pocket stays clean and a positive play is made.

Defensive lines make good plays too, and sometimes they just have the right call, or gets leverage.

Sometimes D's rush more than 4, doesn't have to be an all out blitz, just one on one and the line can be overpowered.

As Baker matures, some of these issues will begin to alleviate themselves, though there will always be sacks, fumbles, hurries, and INTs, no matter who the QB is.

We must've posted about the same time.

I'm not saying it was an every-down thing, but more than once or twice our OT's looked like they were on blocking sleds straight back to the QB. The pocket got skinny quickly when that happened, with the added benefit (to the defense) of eliminating any lateral movement by Mayfield. The OT's have to learn to get enough leverage to run/ride that outside rush past the QB and not directly to him, IMO.

You may, or may not, want to read this.

https://www.cleveland.com/expo/sports/er...s-is-he-ho.html

Bad link - I got 404'd.

It says link not available.

Sorry about that. I must have messed it up. Try this one:

https://www.cleveland.com/expo/sports/er...s-is-he-ho.html

super has a thread about it. The title starts off w/Baker Mayfield........

Check it out. It's a good read.

Please don't freak out on this, but it is mostly Baker and also scheme.

I say don't freak out because it will get better with time. Baker does awesome making the first read and delivering the ball in a tight window. Where it goes down hill is when he has to make the second and third reads. Most rookies have this problem. Heck, most rookies struggle even making the 1st read as quick as Baker does. So he is a step ahead there. Also this system is all about timing. The short and intermediate routes will open and close quickly. You develop that timing with lots of practice throwing to the same guys that you will be throwing to on Sunday. Baker was with a lot of WRs on Sunday that weren't his targets in camp. No two WR's are going to make the same cut at the same time and in this system any of the 5 eligible guys on the field could be running that #2 read depending on the formation and motion. Not to mention that most of our current WR's aren't good enough to get open consistently. So that third read is often more important than the 2nd and if your timing is off on the second read it will be off in the third.

Has our line been giving up some easy sacks? Yes, but overall the unit is better than average. They aren't giving up any more than most lines have. Baker is getting enough time in most cases, but he just hasn't had enough practice time with the guys he's been throwing to. This is part of the growing pains that you have starting a rookie QB. It will get better, but we'll need patience and some luck that the guys he's throwing to stay healthy.

The good news is that this system is perfect for a QB that can make quick reads. Once he starts making that 2nd and 3rd read like he's making the first, he won't need the greatest WR's in the world. He'll be able to produce when a couple of those guys are nothing but consistent route runners that hold onto the ball.

Just be patient.

Good post, Dep

I see that too. And while he doesn't directly lead to sacks or Qb hits, Baker has issues dealing with that kind of pressure.

Question is, how do we deal with that?

I'm not an O-Line maven, but I would think our OT's have to sink their hips, get under the DE's pads, and ride them out of the play, thereby creating escape alleys right or left for Mayfield to slide either way and make a throw. Maybe Joe T could teach them the technique.

I think tat we are too far into the season to make significant technique changes in the players. I think the answer would have to be schematic.

I guess you are ignoring the Baker part of the equation despite the evidence?

That's fine. But, I'm done w/this thread.

I am ignoring the Baker part because I want to talk about the o-line.
Baker has his issues and they are not going to be fixed quickly.
I want to know what we can do to help help him while we are waiting for him to get quicker at getting to the 2nd and 3rd reads.

So our choices are, to change what we do with the o-line --> what can we do is the question that prompted me to start this thread. or we can change what plays we call --> I am open to hearing suggestions. or we can sit back and watch Baker get repeatedly mauled by defensive linemen --> not acceptable in my opinion.

Of course if you know how to get Baker to learn how to quickly go from his 1st read to his 2nd read to his 3rd read by Sunday, well I am all ears.

Well, I think it's pretty clear that the OL isn't really the problem.

Let's say that our o-line gives Baker a full second longer than the average NFL line does. If Baker need 2 seconds longer than that average time then we need to find some way to get him that extra second.

I don't know, man. I think the goal should be to get Baker to make quicker reads.

It would be great if we end up having the best OL in football, but I don't know if that is as practical as getting Baker to speed his processing skills up a bit.

Baker getting faster with his reads will come with experience. But that takes time.
We need to do something while we wait. Perhaps keep a tight end in?
I don't know what we can do, which is why I am asking.
I am trying to talk football and hoping to get something more than Baker just needs to get better.

I am all for Baker getting quicker with his reads.
If you can explain how we can do that quicker, I would love to hear it.
Hue and Haley would probably like to hear that as well.

I hear you. The OL sucks and gets all the blame and Baker is a victim.

I'm out.

You clearly don't hear me.
I said nothing of the sort.

I acknowledged that Baker has issues.
But those issues will take time to get better.

I am asking for interim solutions.
I asked if we can help Baker by changing play call
I asked if we can get him more time to make his reads

You said Baker needs to get quicker
I asked: How do we do that?

For all the times you berate all of us about not "talking football", you sure are reluctant to do so when the opportunity is given to you on a silver platter.

I like the question too: HOW DO WE DO THAT?

I honestly don't know and would like some people to answer. How do we make our offense better? What schemes could we employ? Plays/Players? Etc.

NO,in that case we just need to find a new QB...

But all in all I think both BM and the OL are doing a good job. Don't know what was your expectation.

I agree. I don't think it is realistic to expect our line to block a second longer than any of the other lines in the NFL.

I am sure that Baker will speed it up. Right now he is weak at the WR position, and even though he has played 4-5 games, he is still trying to get in sync with the receivers we keep changing due to injury.

Dorsey has been given a lot of credit, and deserved, but Corbett with the 2nd round pick isn't looking all that good right now. Maybe it's just me but I expect a top of the 2nd round player to provide some impact on the field and not simply be bench depth. I liked the pick when we made it but it isn't producing results on the field.

There’s nothing u can do jester ...

Its an internal processing thing ... some never get it ...

Bake appears to have everything else u need to be succesful ... processing info is the big wild card now IMO ... and u never know on that .... why do Joe, Tom, Payton and Drew have it while its left plenty of other qb’s that had all the other tools in the waste management section of the qb bin ...

Unfortunately there’s nothing u can do to speed it up ... a lot of times it just never happens ...

No reason to think Bake won’t get it ... it takes time ... ALL rookies struggle with it ... it manifests itself in different ways .... like with Payton ... i think he broke the rookie record for td’s in a season .... if memory serves me correct he had 26 td’s his rookie year ... he also threw 28 picks ... Payton was processing it very quickly his rookie year ... just a lot of times it was wrong ... bakes taking the other route ... he’s staying on his #1 to long ... not recognizing whats going on quick enough so he’s staying with his #1 ...

That may take til next year to really improve ... and theres always the chance it simply doesn’r Improve ... at this point .. theres no reason to believe Bake won’t “get” it ..

Actually i was wrong .. there is one thing we can do for now ...

Get Higgins healthy .... Bake needs his security blanket back ... that’ll help more than most think ...

Thanks Diam, I agree Baker getting quicker will take time.

What if we went "max protect"?

Not exactly sure what that means to NFL people, but to me it means keeping in 2 extra blockers.
Instead of blocking with 5 linemen sending out everyone else, keep 2 TE or a TE/RB in to help block.
Seems to make sense to me. Baker needs more time for his reads. If he struggles to get to his third read, what's the point of sending out 5 receivers?

I worry that Haley expects Baker to play right now like Ben played for him these past couple years.. That he expects Baker to do things in his rookie year that a HOF Qb is doing in his 10th year.

That will buy him more time ... no doubt ... problem is now we have less options ... that creates another problem ...

There’s no easy fix ... its going to take time and reps ... in our case its compounded by the injuries and youth in our wr room ... Calloway should be a 10 snap a game guy and Ratley’s awful green and Perriman been on the team for 2 entire weeks now ...

That recipe is not exactly an incubator for a fast learning curve ...

Good news is if he gets it ... it will be well worth the wait IMO ...

Nothing is going to be a perfect solution. But I think doing max protect would let Baker feel more comfortable in the pocket. Just teach him to make his 3 progressions then throw the ball away or run.

This conversation has sparked a memory. Seems that I remember that when Big Ben took over at Qb for the Steelers all those many years ago, there was a lot of talk about how the Steelers would have him read just one side of the field. Is something like that an option?