One will go at the end of the season ... book it ... Anderson and coleman will both retire ... its been a long time coming ... one of them is one of the R’s that hosed us ...
The other two ... ZERO will happen to them for reasons i don’t care to disclose ...
Dude got fired for 2 reasons ...
One was to let folks know that officials do get fired for performance ...
Two was he was real bad and it was to send a message that times are a changin .. on this one its not what ya’all think it is ... no way am i elaborating ...
There is no solace in AFTER THE FACT...he already screwed us...still counts as a -0- in the win column. More should get fired including another none flag for Offense again this time we didn't give up on the play.
But this is stuff POP Warner refs got right!
I agree, heck even Diam who cant see the words on the post could have called that!
Ahhh .... u and the KING WHNER are having a bash diam party ... can i come ... i love parties .. *L* ..
Oh come on bud, you know its cause I like ya. bustin chops is all.
The NFL grades officials on their performance on every play of every game. The league has occasionally suspended or re-assigned officials for mistakes of game administration, but it evaluates their careers on a yearly basis by placing each in one of three tiers.
Tier I is for the top performers, Tier II is for mid-level grades and Tier III is for the lowest-performing officials in a given year. Historically, two consecutive seasons in the third tier makes an official vulnerable to termination.
That system is designed to prevent instant evaluations based on a single mistake or a series of closely-timed mistakes.
The officials are grading on EVERY PLAY OF EVERY GAME ...
WILL where have we heard that before ... sounds familiar .... no? ...
Hmmmm .. i wonder who may have said that more than once .. hmmmm ...
It's a beginning. Let's see who else gets canned, and if the officiating actually improves. Hoculi should be next to go for that moronic statement about the helmet to helmet hit on Baker, but you know Eddie's boy ain't goin' nowhere. Maybe papa will take him out back and make him do 300 crunches and 150 one-armed push ups.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski
"Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield
It's a beginning. Let's see who else gets canned, and if the officiating actually improves. Hoculi should be next to go for that moronic statement about the helmet to helmet hit on Baker, but you know Eddie's boy ain't goin' nowhere. Maybe papa will take him out back and make him do 300 crunches and 150 one-armed push ups.
If there isn't a Gun Show on Game Day, is he even really related to Ed??
#foreal
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
This is a big deal. Personally, I would've been happy with them opening up and showing what refs go through after each game. Diam tried to explain it to me, but I would've loved to get more details and straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak.
Apparently the King of the refs (that Riveron guy) is taking some heat and felt he had to send a message. Well, message sent but... message received?
If it's a performance issue, refs fearing for their jobs are not going to magically get good. I like the intent, but I'm not really sold on the proposed solution.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
I agree. FWIW, my initial reaction in each of these non-calls (I am thinking about three this season) was the vaunted integrity of The Game and to avoid even the hint of a suggestion that gambling or a fix was in. When officials blow calls, ignore calls, explain away calls, throw lots of second half and fourth quarter flags, and so on, but especially flagrantly ignore calls (especially that end in TD's!), it looks shaky at best, shady at worst, and invites suspicion and grumbling with plausible reason. If it had happened in a SB, changed its outcome, calculate for yourself how that would impact the NFL's popularity and integrity. They seem more concerned about the former, but seem to know on some level that they need to appear to be diligent on the latter. JMO. Go, Browns! Beat the Zebras.
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
Yeah, it's definitely fishy that he was fired mid-season when it is so unprecedented. Maybe something was up?
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
I never really minded Boger or Hocchuli Sr. so much. As I mentioned before (or in another thread) these guys do have a really really tough, thankless job. The rulemakers are actively trying to make their job as difficult as possible.
I sympathize, but only to a point.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
I think you bring up a good point in that the NFL has created so many new rules that require subjective interpretation. Of course, there is going to be controversy when you have such rules.
The other thing that I don't like is when the officials become the show. I don't "tune in" to see officials pontificating on what just happened. I want to see action. I hate when the flow of the game is disrupted. We can blame the networks and some fans for this because they demanded explanations. I kind of get that, but it's become a monster.
One more thing. Last night the announcers were talking about the fact that there is a penalty on almost every special teams play. They also mentioned that certain crews call more penalties than others. It really sucks to have a great return negated by a dubious block in the back call. As the official is explaining it, you can just about hear the air deflating in the stadium.
Sometimes, less is more....if you know what I mean.
u guys IGNORE the fact i’ve Admitted we’ve been hosed and theres been some horrifick calls agains us that there’s NO EXCUSE FOR ...
That is how I know it really really is bad. As over the years you have championed the refs. Btw I have never mentioned as I had promised to do so but I think the cat is out of the bag through your mouth so I believe it is ok to relinquish my promise of silence. Diam is a professional ref, well just as professional as the ones we hire as NFL refs. You know have other jobs and as a side job Referee except although Diam is a good ref and as good as some out there he gets diddly as pay...although he would actually make a living if he moved here to Long Island! lol
But Diam for you to hose these refs, that tells me it is getting pretty bad.
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
The refs are called upon to make more and more judgement calls. Why not allow them to use judgement when calling a foul...like not throwing a flag on some play where the foul had no bearing on the plays outcome...like some stupid backside holding call.
You still call a foul for a chop block or clip...things that can hurt people, but some iffy illegal contact, maybe hold on throwing the flag.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
IMO, this is an extremely well-thought out article. It much more clearly says what I was trying to say over multiple posts. Only towards the end does he kind of go in a different direction, I think.
If you fire a down judge for missing a false start, then what does that mean for a ref that says it's ok to hit a QB in the head.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
I saw a couple people pull Kevin Seifert in this thread and he appears to be all over this story...But I think he is missing a bunch of things...so I will just add some excerpts from the article.
Quote:
...there are good reasons the NFL's evaluation process has never before led to an in-season firing, a rationale I suspect most in the league office recognize. The procedure is designed not only to insulate officials from hasty decisions after games like the one Smith's crew had Thursday night, but also to minimize resulting crew disruptions.
SO I agree with what he said here. But I think he is missing something that is far larger than either of his reasons. The refs are the representative Authority Figure on the field. An in Season firing undermines that authority and opens up a huge can of worms. Which is that the NFL made a mistake with this ref. If they made a mistake with this ref...how many more mistakes did they make? SO now you will see more contentions by players and coaches on game day. And more contentions that escalate. Consider Baseball. The Umps are the top of the food chain on Gameday. Argue Strikes and Balls...say hello to the lockeroom. And you notice you get a lot of hitters that are just incensed at a called strike 3...But you also see them try to calm themselves down and not say anything they might regret. That sort of authority is gone from football. It may never have been as forceful as Baseball...but they did have a semblance of that Authority...This firing took it away. So I honestly have a problem with the mid season firing...(whether he deserved it or not I think there is a bigger picture)
Quote:
From a public perspective, incomplete judgment is part of the officiating territory. Fans, players and coaches often base their perceptions on a handful of mistakes rather than the totality of performance. According to the NFL's own website, officials are "typically accurate on 95 to 97 percent of calls."
I think he misses the boat here as well...I don't think Fans are overly upset about calls that are made. I believe they are upset....or at least I am upset...In the calls that aren't made and the consistency of the calls made. Calls like the missed False Starts in the Chargers AND Bucs games...That shows incompetence. The mugging that happens to receivers that does not get called...The pick up of a flag when a guy gets hit in the head. I think fans get PISSED when their OL gets called for Holding when their DLineman have torn holes in their jerseys with no calls on the other side. I think fans are TICKED to see pitty pat fouls called and the far more egregious ones go by the wayside. I think Fans are ENRAGED when there is a HUGE descrepency of penalties between teams when the saying is that a "penalty could be called on every play" or because they are trying to protect the NFL stars.
I don't think anyone WANTS to blame the refs...It is easy to do so and so many do. But the problem here is that they are having a HUGE influence on the game where they should have none. They have literally decided games this year. No team wants to be in that position and will do what they can in order not to be. But it has happened. And in some cases call made and missed placed teams in those positions...
Fans can't stand it when a team has drive killing penalties and then see the same thing from the other team that are not called...
It isn't the calls that are "Made" that are the problem...It is the calls that aren't...
If they are concerned that too many calls ruins the play of the game...then loosen the rules...but the refs need to be in a position where they have authority and not influence the outcome...
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
The refs are called upon to make more and more judgement calls. Why not allow them to use judgement when calling a foul...like not throwing a flag on some play where the foul had no bearing on the plays outcome...like some stupid backside holding call.
You still call a foul for a chop block or clip...things that can hurt people, but some iffy illegal contact, maybe hold on throwing the flag.
Well concerning the holding not affecting the play...in some way it does...the holding took an option away from the offense and forced them to go to another target...or in the case of decoys trying to take players away from the play...it affects the play in that the holding allows the DB to stay closer to where the play actually happened...
BUT...I do get where you are going...
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
Officiating as a general topic is an interesting topic.
The biggest "problem" is consistency.
Even with replays available. For the life of me I don't see how the calls on the two fumbles in our games could have been made. The Oakland game on the Carr fumble. This last game on the fumble after receiver possession??
Then in general quarterback roughing. On one hand they go overboard where you can't breath on the guy. Then on the Mayfield hit? Why have helmet to helmet penalty if after discussion you can't decide what is right?
After the fiasco of what is a catch? Holding to me is a mess.
Basically I don't know how they call holding. I see it so often it just seems like a random call.
Consistency is what is deserved by fans and players.
I have complained for YEARS that my issue with officiating in our games is more about what they DON'T call than what they do call. This year has provided an unbelievable amount of ammo for that complaint.
The helmet shot explanation and no-call was every bit as egregious - if not more so - than the missed false start.
Hocculi was a jerk .. big time .. no one liked him .. but he was a very good official ... no clue why u think he stunk ...
The rest of you list looks pretty good ... Hoccui was very good ...
You're right, he was. He had that blown call in the Chargers Broncos game years ago and it colored the rest of his career. And the blown call really upset him, he even apologized to fans afterwards. Now it's weekly, in just about every game. Totally ridiculous. Shaun has some big shoes to fill, and he's already off on the wrong foot.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski
"Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield
The fact they consistently make the wrong calls which affect the outcomes of games is the biggest problem. They're constantly bad, so there is consistency, just not of the type you'd wish to see.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski
"Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield
I saw a couple people pull Kevin Seifert in this thread and he appears to be all over this story...But I think he is missing a bunch of things...so I will just add some excerpts from the article.
Quote:
...there are good reasons the NFL's evaluation process has never before led to an in-season firing, a rationale I suspect most in the league office recognize. The procedure is designed not only to insulate officials from hasty decisions after games like the one Smith's crew had Thursday night, but also to minimize resulting crew disruptions.
SO I agree with what he said here. But I think he is missing something that is far larger than either of his reasons. The refs are the representative Authority Figure on the field. An in Season firing undermines that authority and opens up a huge can of worms. Which is that the NFL made a mistake with this ref. If they made a mistake with this ref...how many more mistakes did they make? SO now you will see more contentions by players and coaches on game day. And more contentions that escalate. Consider Baseball. The Umps are the top of the food chain on Gameday. Argue Strikes and Balls...say hello to the lockeroom. And you notice you get a lot of hitters that are just incensed at a called strike 3...But you also see them try to calm themselves down and not say anything they might regret. That sort of authority is gone from football. It may never have been as forceful as Baseball...but they did have a semblance of that Authority...This firing took it away. So I honestly have a problem with the mid season firing...(whether he deserved it or not I think there is a bigger picture)
Quote:
From a public perspective, incomplete judgment is part of the officiating territory. Fans, players and coaches often base their perceptions on a handful of mistakes rather than the totality of performance. According to the NFL's own website, officials are "typically accurate on 95 to 97 percent of calls."
I think he misses the boat here as well...I don't think Fans are overly upset about calls that are made. I believe they are upset....or at least I am upset...In the calls that aren't made and the consistency of the calls made. Calls like the missed False Starts in the Chargers AND Bucs games...That shows incompetence. The mugging that happens to receivers that does not get called...The pick up of a flag when a guy gets hit in the head. I think fans get PISSED when their OL gets called for Holding when their DLineman have torn holes in their jerseys with no calls on the other side. I think fans are TICKED to see pitty pat fouls called and the far more egregious ones go by the wayside. I think Fans are ENRAGED when there is a HUGE descrepency of penalties between teams when the saying is that a "penalty could be called on every play" or because they are trying to protect the NFL stars.
I don't think anyone WANTS to blame the refs...It is easy to do so and so many do. But the problem here is that they are having a HUGE influence on the game where they should have none. They have literally decided games this year. No team wants to be in that position and will do what they can in order not to be. But it has happened. And in some cases call made and missed placed teams in those positions...
Fans can't stand it when a team has drive killing penalties and then see the same thing from the other team that are not called...
It isn't the calls that are "Made" that are the problem...It is the calls that aren't...
If they are concerned that too many calls ruins the play of the game...then loosen the rules...but the refs need to be in a position where they have authority and not influence the outcome...
Interesting take. I agree....and good to see you around Pete!
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
Shaun has been put in a position he’s not ready for ... he’s GREEN ... there’s been a ton of turn over the last 3 or 4 years at the R position and last year was 4 more ... they have one other R thats not quite ready ... there gonna lose at east one this year and more than likely two ... there also gonna start losing a bunch of U’s over the next couple of years and thats going to compound the problems for a bunch of reasons ....
Shauns mistake on that play was verbage ... that was it ...Shaun wears the white hat so he’s technically in “charge’ ... but they’ve surrounded him with good strong vets he relies on as he learns the rope .. he’s a good young official ... hes just not ready for his roll .. thats a tough one to grow into ...
Shaun will take a minor minor ding for that on his game score for verbage ... it will be used as a teaching moment by his supervisor ...
I would guess Shaun pointed out in his written critique of each play of the game what he said and why it was wrong and what he should have said ... i’m Sure he knew what he did as soon as the words came out of his mouth ...
Then him and his supervisor will talk about it and go over the correct verbage witch I am sure Shaun will have nailed by the time of his call with his supervisor ...
I haven’t heard the audio ... i also haven’t seen Shaun as an R on a game I had audio on .... haven’t paid attention ... never did when he was in college either ... i hope he doesn’t try and emulate his father with his verbage ... his dad being the egotistical jerk he was had to explain it in as many words as possible so he got as much air time as possible ... that’s DANGEROUS for someone that is not good with words .... they have to be WORDED PRECISELY or u see what happens ...
One of the things they teach officials is to say as few words as possible ... only answer questions ... volunteer as little info as possible ... its not to be jerks ... at that level its to give the coaches the least amount if ammo as possible .... thats not a joke ...
I’ve said a few times that Mike Carey was a GREAT official ... he was an R ... i would bet $50 none of u have a clue as to why ....
Tell u what ... if anyone can tell me why Mike Carey was a great official I’ll give them a free Isle of Optimism ... crap ... everything’s free ... *L* ..
I’ll be very impressed .... *LOL* ... not much of an incentive is it ... oh well ....
That's neat and all...............but it's the NFL. Not h.s. football, not jr. high football.
It's the NFL. The top level of football. To proclaim "....he was still a runner, and therfore, he could be hit in the head" is just wrong, dumb, stupid, and not tolerable. I don't give a rip who his dad is. And if you watched the vid in here, it proves he was wrong.
If you follow the rules............it was MORE than obvious the call - rather, the over ruling of the call, was blatantly wrong.
With all that said Diam, I'd really like your opinion on the rest of what I find troubling with that play.
NFL insisted before the start of the season that blow to the head penalties should be reviewed to establish punishment and the prospect of "targeting". Doesn't the problem go beyond verbage in this situation? Also, is that mistake on Shaun or the crew as a whole, I mean, shouldn't somebody say "hey, maybe we better look at the tape before we write this one off"?
I am not a ref guru, but I liked Carey because he didn't take any stuff. He would eject a guy if he deemed it worthy. He was no-nonsense and guys learned to toe the line during his games.
Dude.............we're talking about a blatant false start.
I have a clue what I'm talking about.
Obviously, I DO know what you refuse to admit.
And, while I'm not a ref. in football, I AM an ump in softball. For me to make a mistake that bad, I would have to watch a girl swing at a pitch, miss it completely, and call "ball".
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg)
)![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg)