DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Lack of Continuity

About 6-7 years ago I had a conversation with a co-worker who was a Steelers fan. (He was born there, I don't begrudge him his fandom.) But he made a point that rang true then, and still does. The biggest difference between the Browns and the Steelers, as organizations, is continuity. Chuck Noll was hired as HC of the Steelers in 1969. In the 50 years since, they have had 3 HC.

By comparison, since the return in 1999, Greg Williams makes the 10th HC in 20 years, an average of 1 new HC every 2 years. Not a single one of them have a winning record as HC of the Browns. On the surface, that suggests that the Browns have been epically bad at selecting HC. But some of them have winning records before or after the Browns, so the problem isn't that simple. (Problems rarely are that simple.)

As Oober, Prpl, and others have pointed out, each new coach brings a new philosophy, a new system, a new set of player types needed to make that system work. Every change comes with a need to reshape the team. Players brought in to fit one HC's system might not fit the next system.

So the 20 year history of the new Cleveland Browns is to hire a new HC, give him two years to reshape the team for his system, fire him when he isn't a winner in those 2 years, rinse and repeat.

Was the firing of Hue Jackson necessary? (Or Pettine before him, or Chudzinski before him, or Shurmer before him, or Mangini before him...) I certainly thought that Shurmer and especially Chudzinski were not given fair chances. Pettine lost the team, and although Jackson held the team together through 2 years of losing, in the last few weeks I think he did too.

Now many of the Browns HC were truly bad, but some were simply never given enough time to build a team to make their system work. We keep doing the same thing, over and over, and expecting different results. That is the definition of insanity. At some point the Cleveland Browns are going to have to stick with 1 guy, through the losing, long enough for that coach to complete his team.

Or, they could hire someone good enough to adapt his system to the roster he has. Lot easier that way.

We've never heard that before.

Haslam sees Dorsey as the answer. He is the best thing that has happened to the Browns in years. He is putting all his eggs in Dorseys basket. I dont have a problem with that.

I think that is easier said than done. It seems like every new HC says they will adjust to their players. But when that doesn't work, they change personnel to fit their system.

They don't even wait that long. Get ready for more purging of the roster.

Doesn’t make it incorrect, now does it?

We'll see.

True. However, it can be done, it just takes the right coaching staff. I use Mike Brown as an example of how not to do it. He walks into the Lakers locker room, asks who knows how to run the triangle offense. Everyone raises their hand. He says “Great! We’re not doing that.” And hilarity ensues.

Yep. It will work or it won’t.

I honestly feel like Haslam was trying to give Hue a LONG shot to do it ... he wanted it, but this past few weeks has really shed light onto the ugliness of the franchise (whether or not Haslam is really to blame we don't know)

We can't lay the blame all on Haslam. The pattern existed well before he purchased the team. He has been quick to pull the trigger, and I hope he has learned from his mistakes. Time will tell.

LOUSY draft picks has contributed more to our losing than anything else. Morons picking morons is the reason we have sucked for so long. U want continuity? Draft good players and get out of the way.

If there's a line in Vegas for the over/under for the next regime, I'm taking the under at three years. I have absolutely no reason to believe this next group will be the answer any more than the previous nine. They'll need 3-5 years, they'll get two, then it's back on the merry-go-round. The issues are chronic.

You mean like when Marty went 14-2 with the Chargers and got fired?

I think the classic example of that is Bill Belichick. We hired him as a 1st time HC when everyone seemed to be predicting he would be a great HC. In 4 years here he had a losing record (although improving from year to year) and we fired him. Now he has become one of the all time greats with the second team to hire him.

IMO..

The main reason we have been a lousy football team has been the OWNERS. They have consistently hired the wrong people to run the team. I have hopes for this Dorsey fella..

Then again I bought and drank the kool-aid when we hired that Holmgren guy.

We finally have a chance with Baker IMO. This is too delicate to ruin.

The only coach who I think unequivocally was not given enough time or a fair chance was Chudzinski.

There were a few others who could make a good case as well but they weren't as blatant. Hue Jackson is not one of them by the way. In fact, it was probably only the Browns who would have given him the third season.

As I said in another thread, the Haslam’s can’t see into the future to see if a hire is going to be good or not. Hue was the hottest thing since sliced bread when they hired him. If Dorsey [censored] the bed next year will it be their fault again? You hire who you think will be good and cross your fingers.

Your post would make sense, except it doesnt take into account, that not once coach since 99 has had success as a HC anywhere else after the Browns.

Yall wanted Pettine to stay, where he at?
Yall wanted Shurmur to stay, hes about to get fired again.
Yall wanted Chud, he aint a HC.

At some point and at some time, Hue would have had to have shown something to give reason to keep him around. He did not. Neither did any of the other rejects we have had here.

Since Shurmer is the only one as a HC now...Lets see what happens in NY..

I agree, at some point we do need to stick to something long term.

The silver lining here is our Front Office is essentially an extension of the Green Bay Packers, they are literally the Packers of the AFC. Dorsey, Elliot Wolf, and Alonzo Highsmith are going to draw on what they know...The Holmgren/Reid coaching tree. to be more specific, the West Coast Offense.

Our Front Office KNOWS how to build a team and draft players that fit for the WCO. The WCO has changed a bit over the years its no longer the vannila stuff of the 49er's back in the 80's, but look no farther then the Green Bay Packers and the Kansas City Chiefs to see what the WCO looks like in the modern NFL. Baker Mayfield looks and plays like a prototypical WCO QB, I think he thrives in that system.

Our front office knows how to draft guys that fit that system because they have years of experience scouting and drafting WCO players, players that fit the mold of that particular system.

This is the reason I believe Dave Toub is going to be our next HC(if he will accept the job,) and we will get an OC either from Green Bay's staff or someone else off Andy Reid's staff in Kansas City. Then Dorsey will be able to draft players based on the system he is familiar with, and for the 1st time in a longtime our owner, front office, and coaching staff will all be on the same page and in lockstep.

I would fully expect Toub to get 5 years barring Haslam doesn't sack Dorsey, Wolf, and Highsmith for some insane reason. Its my hope that maybe Haslam will listen to these three guys and let them bring in people and stabilize a system.

Also, depending how Gregg Williams does the rest of the way out, He may be someone they keep. He is a good DC, and their has been clear progress on that side of the ball, they have kept us in most games until yesterday. I wouldn't be shocked if the D plays tough down the stretch and keeps games close, etc that maybe Williams gets another year. After all, its our O that is losing us games, Williams D leads the league in takeaways, Garret is tied for the league lead in sacks. Their is a lot of good to take away from our defense so far, we may not want to get rid of Williams so quickly.

Yeah, giving him an abrasive, cheater, defensive minded HC and an OC who has never called plays in a real game are brilliant moves.

I have a question. With the system in place right now, how hard would it be to start adapting the current playbook to look more WCO? Is there any reason we couldn’t keep the current system and just start calling the plays in a WCO style?

well, i meant for the future. Your point is valid for 8 weeks.

I'm sorry............I could have sworn you brought that point up multiple times for a justification of firing Hue this year.

Vers.. Hue and Haley were two grown men that were creating a cancer. There were signs of regression on the team.

Just how much losing can you accept and be okay with ?

The change happened because the results were the same from the last 2 1/2 seasons.

Wrong or right it happened...Whether you agree or disagree it happened.

All we can do as fans of this team is hope some how something works to bring a winning culture here.

http://www.espn.com/blog/cleveland-brown...ling-to-coaches

Why the Browns job should be so appealing to coaches

Pat McManamon
ESPN Staff Writer

BEREA, Ohio -- The Cleveland Browns are again seeking a coach after the firing of Hue Jackson on Monday, but this situation is far different than it was for other previous new hires.

The Browns job is an attractive opening that should draw interest around the NFL and the college coaching circles.

Many of the pieces a coach wants are present.

The first is the quarterback. The drafting of Baker Mayfield and his play have provided reason to believe he will be the guy going forward. He’s had good moments and he’s had rookie struggles, but his overall approach, effort, competitiveness and football smarts give reason to believe in his future.

Compare the presence of Mayfield on the roster to the quarterbacks past new Cleveland coaches inherited or acquired. Rome Crennel had Trent Dilfer, Charlie Frye and Derek Anderson. Eric Mangini had Brady Quinn, Anderson, Jake Delhomme, Seneca Wallace and Colt McCoy. Pat Shurmur had Colt McCoy and Brandon Weeden. Rob Chudzinski had Weeden, Brian Hoyer and Jason Campbell. Mike Pettine had Hoyer, Johnny Manziel and Josh McCown. And Jackson had Robert Griffin III, McCown, Cody Kessler, DeShone Kizer and Kevin Hogan before the drafting of Mayfield.

With Mayfield, the next coach has more certainty, and talent. He also has a guy Drew Brees said can be better than he (Brees) has been.

That quarterback is the most important factor for any coach taking a job.

Second is the Browns roster has talent, much of it young. On offense, running back Nick Chubb played well enough to force a Carlos Hyde trade. Jarvis Landry will be one of the receivers, joined by Antonio Callaway, who had one of his better overall games in Pittsburgh.


The next Browns coach will inherit a promising young quarterback in Baker Mayfield. Mike Ehrmann/Getty Images
Defensively, ends Myles Garrett and Emmanuel Ogbah, tackle Larry Ogunjobi, corner Denzel Ward and safeties Damarious Randall and Jabrill Peppers provide a foundation.

None of the defensive players are past their fourth year in the league.

Those young players were supplemented in the offseason by the roster overhaul of general manager John Dorsey, who transformed 60 percent of the roster via trades and free agent signings.

Dorsey also will have a boatload of salary cap room to work with in the next offseason as well, the third reason this job is attractive.

ESPN’s Roster Management System states the Browns have $59 million in salary cap space. That number is fluid, but Dorsey should have plenty of cap space to add pieces to the team.

Development of Mayfield may be reason for Haley firing Chris Mortenson cites the development of Browns QB Baker Mayfield as a potential reason for the firing of Todd Haley.

The last reason this job is attractive: Dorsey and the front office he’s built.

Dorsey is a Ron Wolf guy, a man who treats people with respect but a guy who will not tolerate unnecessary drama (witness Jackson and Todd Haley both being let go on the same day). He’s also an aggressive guy who will do all he can to improve a team.

The front office that he built includes Alonzo Highsmith and Eliot Wolf, like Dorsey former Packers front office types whose beliefs are rooted in scouting and personnel. They join holdover Andrew Berry to give any new hire an experienced, credible front office.

The Browns job in the past has been a leftover of sorts, the job folks did not want to take.

That isn’t true with this opening.

This is a job a lot of coaches will want to pursue.

That's fine, but you never chastised guys like peen, Memphis, cfrs, etc who bashed Hue multiple times per day. And they did it for over a freaking year. Yet somehow, I am not allowed to vent the day a guy was fired?

Come on, man!

I am not preventing you to vent. I get it.



He just wasn't any good.


Let me ask you this, I know you coached so i know you have feelings for people who coach and take a lot of flack....what about the 18 coaches Hue fired in 2 years?
That is a lot of turnover....a lot of lives shatterd. Was Hue concerned about them?


I think Hue was out for Hue. JMO.....not trying to pick a fight.

I didn't want Hue fired for one main reason: my fear that the new coach will come in and start dumping players. I am confident, however, that Dorsey won't allow that to happen.

I feel bad for Hue, I don't blame him for the first two years, but this BS with Haley - whatever the details are - is not easy to defend without knowing the details.

Another thing: Haslam has hired and fired a lot of people in the past six years. When's he going to start looking in the mirror to ask himself if HE is the problem?

I understand you need to vent..I feel for you because I know how much you liked Hue. I haven't posted in any of the firing threads.

I know it hurts when people you support get let go..I know it hurts when people don't get let go when you want them to.

We simply have know control on what happens with our football team. I guess instead of looking back. and judging the replacement guys we should do the wait and see what happens.

8 games left..One can assume..lets see what happens.

I for one who did not like Hue..gave him my full support til the very end. Im sorry your upset and for all the fans who don't agree with this move.

Hard as it may be for some...and joyful for others...All we can do now is hope for some improvements and wins..It will do so much for this young team.

Everyone wanted Hue to be the best coach the Browns ever had.

No fan roots for their team to suck. No fan roots for their coach to suck.

Hue simply didn’t get the job done, and, like any other person who doesn’t fulfill what their boss wants, got released.

Simple as that.

So, now every fan wants Williams to be the best coach the Browns ever had.

Simple as that.

The HC part works for New England. Our offense could hardly get worse. (It probably will)

We're on to Kansas City.



Caught in the downward spiral of no good moves to make again. Our offense apparently isn't the only thing with abhorrent timing.

We're due for a dumb move to work out, maybe.

It happens for others, so why not?

Of course. I liked this OC's playbook and this DC. We will obviously blow the whole thing up now.

Your response is fair and reasonable. Very much unlike guys like arch, will, Haus, and Ham.

I really didn't like Hue all that much. I was the first guy on this board to question him. I started a thread about his ability to evaluate qbs. The fans loved Hue then and tore me a new one. I even started a thread about him quitting on his team when he took his headset off during a game. Again, the guys on this board ripped me.

Later, I supported for 3 reasons:

1. I hate bullies and it sickened me how so many fans were trashing him.

2. I value continuity and I think us changing coaches and regimes constantly is why this franchise sucks so bad. We never learn from our mistakes. This one is the most important.

3. I watched Hard Knocks. I listened to his former players. I listened to Joe "Freaking" Thomas. I saw the videos of how the players reacted to him. He was leading this team in a positive manner.

It's over. He's gone. I won't cry for two years like guys such as peen, will, cfrs, and Memphis did. But, I'm going to vent for a few days. That is for sure.

And that is because we just got worse.

Thanks for the laugh. And I sincerely meant that.