DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns fire Hue Jackson

Willy,
well maybe your memory has gotten bad because Haley came here and ran a reverse on our own 10 yard line!!

Also, Haley got canned from 2 teams because of his play calling. In Pit, he was working with alot better talent and they still let him go and did not miss him on second.. Ask any Pit fam

Haley got canned after putting up 42 points in a playoff game. I know pitt very well, i live here.

Haley make questionable calls, yes - but has been successful every stop minus the browns offensively. He was fired in Pitt because his PERSONAL traits did not mesh well with Ben R. FACT. It had nothing to do with his gameplanning or offense, and everything to do with his personal traits and the fact Ben hated him

We are the 24th ranked offense,not 29th.And we are the 9th rushing offense in the league

Browns made a stupid decision not firing Hue last season,it was so obvious this would happen.

Here is a list of the Browns staff for 16 and 17...

https://www.dawgsbynature.com/2016/1/23/...-coaching-staff

https://fox8.com/2018/01/12/browns-coach-hue-jackson-overhauls-staff-after-winless-season/


You can look and add it up. Seems I read one of the local beats had it at 18.

Seems as though this has been said many other times

FWIW ...

NEVER EVER by me bro ... first time ever ...

Its why u were fitted for a space suit and not a straight jacket for next year bro ... nice for a change ... eh ...

I hear ya, dawg. I am on board!

I've had some time to calm down and digest. I may need some more time to really get back to my center regarding the Browns right now, but I probably can't log on for another couple weeks (work is so crazy, and we have some travel/family stuff coming up).

1st off, I want to get one thing straight. Not wanting to replace the coach and being a "Hue Honk" are two completely different things. I made my frustrations known about Hue, last year especially, when i felt it was warranted. I absolutely did not fawn over every decision he made... if anything it was the opposite. I won't re-repeat what I didn't like about him from last year, as that's well-documented already. I also didn't like some of the stuff he did this year, but with Haley onboard, there was a lot less to criticize, as Hue had less on his plate.

So with that said, despite my frustration with Hue, I still don't like what we did. I felt (and still feel) that by not letting Hue go after last season and when Dorsey came on board, you were signing yourself up for one more full year of Hue, at the very minimum. I just don't understand how you can rationalize keeping Hue, overall record and all through the offseason when that rationalization can just vanish once the season starts. It's like we WANT to take the absolute most painful route.

I just don't understand the logic behind rebooting when we're just getting into the meat of our current reboot. Posters, in particular, are so blind in their hate of Hue (their hate is somewhat justified, it's just not all on Hue) that they're somehow fine undoing all the work we've put in so far just so there is a different face on the sideline. I just don't get it. We actually are starting to build some talent on this roster, but people actually want to flush a significant portion of that down the drain when we inevitably change coaches and systems.

I just don't understand. Maybe I need more time to cool off to look at this logically.

I sort of saw Hue as the kindly grandparent that all the kids loved as he spoiled them rotten.

Sure, he knew offenses, but he worried too much about people liking him. Too much rah, rah and sugar coating things instead of giving it to the players straight and being tough, but fair.

Saw this coming miles away.

I honestly do not think we have ever had such a solid core, and I'm usually very critic of the Browns.

House cleaning is minor now, maybe Collins and Peppers, get some more veterans like Randall and Landry.

Albert Breer knocks it out of the park!

Dysfunction in Cleveland That Preceded Jackson and Haley Firings, Rumors Ahead of Trade Deadline

1. As we mentioned in MMQB this morning, there was no way for the Browns to move forward with their coaching staff as it was constituted—and the move to fire both head coach Hue Jackson and OC Todd Haley was a strike to bring some level of normalcy to the building. Last week it became abundantly clear that the conflict was unfixable. Jackson publicly said that he would be more involved in the offensive meeting rooms, but nothing changed in the days to follow. And the fact that Jackson hadn’t been involved in teaching, building or gameplanning the offense all along—a result of giving Haley the autonomy he was promised—led to the players having credibility issues with the head coach.

I’m told Jackson, for his part, grew frustrated that Haley just seemed to do his own thing. The distrust that grew from this ran so deep that senior offensive assistant Al Saunders (who worked on projects for Haley) was seen in some corners of the building as Jackson’s spy. It’s hard to point fingers in a situation like this, where things get so bad that no one can go forward. But one should be directed at owner Jimmy Haslam, because these personality conflicts have now happened repeatedly (Joe Banner/Mike Lombardi, Ray Farmer/Mike Pettine, Sashi Brown/Jackson) on his watch. Part of hiring, of course, is finding people who can work together, and Haslam has had trouble there.

2. The example everyone is pulling from Hard Knocks is the obvious one—the argument between Jackson and Haley in a coaches’ meeting. But there were other pieces of evidence on how the relationship was set up elsewhere in the show. One was when Corey Coleman went to Jackson to complain about his role as a backup, and Jackson directed him back to Haley. I’m told Jackson, in that case, was trying to make sure players didn’t see him as a lever to get around Haley’s decisions. The intent, I believe, was good there. But the effect, over Jackson’s authority over the offensive players, may not have been.

3. Browns GM John Dorsey said in this afternoon’s press conference that the priority now is creating the right environment for players and coaches, which explains why Gregg Williams was named the interim head coach. Williams is seen as neither a Jackson guy or a Haley guy, and now, it’s most critical that the coach is right for their 23-year-old quarterback. Baker Mayfield wasn’t shy with those around him about his feelings on Jackson, and it’s fair to say he probably wasn’t heartbroken on Monday morning. A key now will be finding the right guy to work with Mayfield, who has a reputation for assessing his coaches, and wanting the “why” to go with the “what” and the “how.”

Bottom line: He’s not automatically on board. Haley’s blunt nature is one reason why he and Mayfield could work together. That should make new OC Freddie Kitchens a good match for him, too—as does Kitchens’s background in Haley’s offense in Dallas and Arizona years ago. And Williams, obviously, is like that as well. Longer term, this whole dynamic is something Cleveland will likely keep in mind in finding its next coach.

4. One name that I mentioned on Twitter, in regards to Cleveland, is Iowa State’s Matt Campbell. Those who run in the scouting circles Dorsey does have the highest respect for him. Does he want to go to the NFL? Can he put together an NFL staff? Those questions would have to be answered. But I think the Northeast Ohio native will get a look from the Browns brass. As should the obvious name—Oklahoma’s Lincoln Riley.

5. Speaking of Riley, his never-say-never response to the NFL question on Monday notwithstanding, I’d expect there to be significant interest coming his way in December and January from pro football. I don’t know if he’d go. I do know that he’s become something of a fascination to NFL decision-makers, as we detailed back in June, which makes it natural that phone calls to his camp will be placed by teams looking for new coaches.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/10/29/clevel...impression=true

There's more to the article as it relates to other NFL news but just lifted the Browns-related material.

Great post! Thank you.

MMQB is probably the best rag out there when it comes to NFL writing, IMO.

The only thing I would disagree with, is his take on the Coleman thing. My feelings on Hue have been posted, but I actually think that was the right way to handle it. Chain of command. You take your thoughts to the WR coach, then the OC, then the HC. You don't just do in an cry to the HC trying to go over Haley's head. Hue did the right thing in that instance referring him to Haley IMO

good info, thanks

I would agree as well.

How Do NFL Teams Perform Following In-Season Coaching Changes?

The Cleveland Browns have reportedly fired head coach Hue Jackson. In two-plus seasons, the Browns won three games under the now departed coach.

Cleveland was 1-15 in Jackson’s first season and 0-16 last year. The Browns started 2018 with a tie before losing four of their past five games.

During Jackson’s tenure, Cleveland went 3-36-1 straight up (SU) and 13-27 against the spread (ATS) – the least profitable coach during that time.

On Sunday the Browns host the Kansas City Chiefs (1 p.m. ET, CBS) in their first game without Jackson. Cleveland is a 7.5-point underdog at home.

With Jackson canned, what should bettors expect from the Browns?

To answer that question, we turned to the Bet Labs database. Jackson is the 23rd coach to be fired in-season since 2003.

Here are how the previous 22 teams performed in the game following their coach’s dismissal:

(Click Link for Data)

On average, teams have been 5.5-point underdogs in their first game after a coach gets fired.

These teams have gone 9-13 (41%) SU, a marked improvement from how they played before the head coach leaving town. Combined, the 22 teams had a 58-160 (26.6%) record before the coach was relieved of his duties.

The improved win rate results in a profitable record ATS. Teams that fired their coach in-season have gone 12-10 ATS in the following game.

It is a small sample, which makes it difficult to draw strong conclusions, but it’s reasonable to theorize that a team would play better once a coach, such as Jackson, who was compared by a player to Michael Scott, is no longer part of the organization.

The betting market believes the loss of Jackson is addition by subtraction. Kansas City opened as an 8.5-point favorite but has moved to Chiefs -7.5.

https://www.actionnetwork.com/nfl/nfl-be...utm_campaign=FL

The only question I have is can Greg win as many games as hue by the end of this year? I believe he will.

No one respects a coach with 1 win in 2 years. Apparently not the players nor the coaches.

Here is the video of the exchange between Hue and Haley from Hard Knocks:

https://twitter.com/JKutz34/status/1056961939501400064

(I didn't embed because it has some NSFW language.)

Weird to watch in hindsight.

When the clip ends, and you see all of the vacant stares in the coaches' eyes, it's absolutely comical.

That is very interesting. Seems hue was running around like a toddler throwing a tantrum, and then leaked to the media once again as soon as he didn't get his way.

Good riddance.

I think - (not an endorsement of any three)

The short list so far would have to be Toub, Eric Bieniemy, and Lincoln simply because of ties to either Dorsey, or the connection w/ Baker in regards to Riley.

Just an observation.

Meant to quote the Corey Coleman comment. I think Hue handled it perfectly.



Based on this article, I think Hue had the correct thinking every step of the way, from:

- limiting players practice time who have nagging injuries, especially when the analytics show risk of injury, and you resting your players has shown historically to be a good move for having your players available on Sunday
- Keeping Gordon from starting against Steelers; Bill just benched him a quarter. No one is greater than the team. Sit for it. Haley thought otherwise.
- Play Chubb more. This to me was probably a bigger issue than we know. My gut tells me Hue wanted Chubb to play more and more, but Haley went rogue and didn't allow it come game time. I don't know, but those are my thoughts.
- Starting Harrison; Keep your best Guard at Guard. Harrison did a pretty damn good job beginning of the season. We were all impressed. He's regressed some now, but I'd continue with Harrison and let him grow from his mistakes.
- How to handle Mayfield to get the offense going - Hue wanted to change things up, and rightfully so. Mayfield excels with uptempo (see Jets game). He excels at throwing the ball downfield. Hue did that with Kizer, but Kizer couldn't handle it. Mayfield could have.

My BIGGEST gripe with Hue is how he handled the media. Stop explaining yourself to people who don't deserve explaining too! They don't want to be your friend. They don't like you.

My other gripe is with the front office. I get it, Baker Mayfield is our QB, and our future. But, as I said earlier, I don't think 1 person should be bigger than anyone. And if you feel that way, don't say it. It was painfully obvious from the article, and from the presser with Dorsey and Haslem, than all moves made are about Baker, and no one else. I don't like that. I think if I'm a player, I feel a certain kind of way b/c I strap my helmet on the same way every Sunday, and risk it all for the benefit of the team.

That clip is when my wife said that Hue was a weak man. She doesn't follow the Brown's to any degree other than she knows they are my passion. I trust her opinion.

It hard to be hard, and you could see it that both Haley and Willims were sitting there, and both thinking they got canned for having records way better than that doofus.

I think that is when Hue sensed it and started his continued talk about him being the head coach and he was the CEO in charge. That was when he lost his coaches and began to lose his team.

Face it, if you lose your coaches, you are going to lose the team in time.

I was in Hue's corner for almost the whole way, but this just wasn't working out. The Browns gave him every opportunity to show them SOMETHING, and he never really made any progress with this team.

The only consistencies were bad. The losing, the getting your rear ends kicked inter-division. The constant falling behind. Always being down multiple scores late. The lack of offense. The penalties, sloppy play, predictable play calling.

I think the thing that angers me the most about his tenure, is that this team was never ready to play. Going into Sunday's game in Pittsburgh the Browns had 8 total first quarter points in 7 games. They nearly matched that total in Sunday's game with a whopping 2 field goals in the first. These teams have never been ready to play.

I keep going back to Hard Knocks he and Haley arguing over practicing these guys so that they were ready. I'm not saying Haley should have kept his job, but I think he was on to something in that conversation.

I'm over it. I don't want to pile on the guy. I think he's done as a HC in this league. There are so many young innovative guys coming in that he will probably be lucky to continue his career as a coordinator, and I believe as a good one. I don't question Hue's football knowledge, his offensive mind, or anything like that. I think he can call plays, I think he's good with quarterbacks. I just don't think he is fit to be in charge of the 53 man and staff of coaches. We were sold a bill of goods. Let's not forget that Jackson was the top candidate at the time, and other teams were pretty interested in him.

As far as what we're going to do, I really hope they don't set their sights on one guy and just go with that. I think they need to do a better job in this search, because it's absolutely crucial.

And lulz @ mike greenberg's comments on twitter yesterday. What an absolute clown. Sounds like someone is worried that the Browns, who have a better roster than his Jets, are probably going to be the best job on the market.

I think Todd Boles is fired after this year, and Greeny isn't going to get the top guy on the market. What an absolutely childish take from a guy who doesn't really know anything about sports, despite being involved with them most of his life. Maybe Sam Darnold should demand a trade?

That would have been a good thing. I talked about it on the Baker thread.

Hue ran that stuff in Cinci. He did RPO's w/Dalton. He went up-tempo. He rolled his qbs out. Much more imaginative than Haley's offense.

I'm getting the feeling that Haley was stubborn and a snake in the grass. I wonder if he'll get another job in the NFL?

https://theundefeated.com/features/cleve...ity-in-the-nfl/

is this why Jimmy kept hue this year?

If Pat Shurmur can land another HC gig, then anything is possible. ANYTHING!



I really wish Baker would have been on this team last year, or that we didn't hire Haley this year. I would have loved to see Baker running Hue's plays for the reasons you mentioned.

Kizer actually did well getting down the field in a Hue Jackson offense. He just couldn't avoid turnovers in the redzone, and his decision making was beyond questionable.

All hypothetical though. It it what it is.



I don't see it being anything related to color. I think Haslem and Hue just had a genuinely, great relationship.

lol while that may be true, you hirin a guy that went 0-16, and 1-15 the year before?

He'll definitely have to 'prove' himself again as an OC somewhere first.

Thanks!!

Hue will be the next head coach of the Cincinnati Bengals.

I would have agreed 18 months ago, but now? Boy, I don't know

Why Hue Jackson had to go, and 13 options to coach Baker next

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/25122...r-mayfield-next

When you have a new baby napping in the house, and your two older children are fighting over a toy and the fight gets so loud you worry they're going to wake up the baby, you don't pick which one of them gets to have the toy. You take it away from both of them.

In the case of the Cleveland Browns, the sleeping baby is Baker Mayfield, the two older children are Hue Jackson and Todd Haley and the toy is the two coaches' jobs.

So it was that on Monday, the Browns resolved a petty power struggle between head coach Jackson and offensive coordinator Haley by firing both men in an effort to quiet things down around Mayfield, in whose success the Browns are far more invested than they ever were in either coach.

Pretty remarkable when you think about it, especially in the case of Jackson. Haley is quite talented but has a well-established reputation of being difficult to work with, and he now has been let go by two different AFC North teams in a span of about 10 months. Browns management deserves some heat for ever thinking the Jackson-Haley thing would work in the first place, but at least it didn't linger too long on its mistake.

Jackson, though ... The Browns brought this guy back after he went 1-15 in his first season and brought him back again after he went 0-16 in his second season. They forgave him, continually, for being a historically terrible NFL head coach. What they couldn't forgive, and what led to Jackson's dismissal in the midst of his best year as their coach, was his contribution to any situation that might hinder Mayfield's growth. After Sunday's events -- not just the loss to the Pittsburgh Steelers but the pregame revelation of the fractures in the Jackson-Haley relationship -- the team decided that relationship had grown potentially poisonous to Mayfield. So they eliminated it from his life.


Sources with direct knowledge of the situation say Haley and Jackson never developed a level of mutual respect that enabled them to work together for the benefit of the team and of Mayfield's development. During training camp, HBO's "Hard Knocks" showed a meeting in which Haley and Jackson strongly opposed each other on the issue of how much players with nagging injuries should be asked to practice. Sources say the disagreements didn't stop there, and that the two clashed throughout the summer and the early part of the season on the direction of the offense.

Areas of dispute included the offensive line arrangement (specifically, the decision to insert undrafted rookie Desmond Harrison at left tackle to start the season), playing time for wide receiver Josh Gordon in the opener (Haley started him after Jackson had publicly said Gordon wouldn't start), the usage of pass-catching running back Duke Johnson and the early-season marginalizing of rookie running back Nick Chubb. The Chubb issue frustrated the front office so much that they eventually traded running back Carlos Hyde to the Jaguars so the coaches would have no choice but to give the rookie the ball.

More recently, sources say, Jackson and Haley clashed over Mayfield. Jackson wanted to adjust the offense to help Mayfield play quicker -- use more of the up-tempo concepts with which he had so much success in college. Haley wanted to stick with his more conservative approach, especially with the team decimated by injuries at wide receiver and unable to rotate personnel in a way that would keep a quicker tempo from exhausting everyone.

Sources say Jackson had privately brought up to management the idea of his taking back some control of the offense or getting rid of Haley entirely. Jackson had been publicly supportive of the offseason decision to hire Haley and cede control of the offense to him, but as the season went along Jackson grew restless about his own long-term future and told people in the building that, if he was going to end up getting fired anyway, he wanted the opportunity to run things his way in the meantime.

Things came to a head after the team's Week 7 loss to Tampa Bay, when Jackson suggested in a postgame news conference that he might need to get more involved in the offense. That led to increased tension in the building and a week in which, according to one source, "there were a lot more meetings than usual." Correctly or incorrectly, the front office believed Jackson to be one of the anonymous sources of information behind Sunday's reports of division, and that irked them further.

A source close to the situation told ESPN on Sunday that any decision the team made about the coaching staff (or anything else, for that matter) would be rooted in the idea of what they felt was best for Mayfield and his development, and they determined that a feud between the head coach and offensive coordinator did not fit that description.

"The message today," Browns owner Jimmy Haslam said in the Monday news conference at which the firings were announced, "is that we're not going to put up with internal discord."

So the temporary solution is that defensive coordinator Gregg Williams, who was the Buffalo Bills' head coach from 2001-03, becomes interim head coach while running backs coach Freddie Kitchens becomes interim offensive coordinator. Kitchens has been an NFL position coach since 2006 but never a coordinator, though Jackson and Haley allowed him to call plays this summer during some preseason games in which Mayfield was playing quarterback.


And sure, if things go really well the rest of the way, everybody gets along, the Browns win a bunch of games and Mayfield flourishes, it's not out of the question that they could keep the same arrangement for 2019. But it's far more likely they bring in a new head coach from the outside. The team gave GM John Dorsey control over the draft and the roster, it may as well let him bring in his own coach to oversee it all. Mayfield and some of the young talent on defense are likely to make this a more appealing job than it has been in years past, so there should be no shortage of interested, qualified candidates looking to put their stamp on a talented young roster as it grows. Whoever Dorsey picks will be selected once again with the best interests of Mayfield in mind. That likely means an offensive coach, but it doesn't have to mean that if the Browns believe it's a coach who can establish and maintain a culture that gives Mayfield the best chance to develop and succeed.

Here are some possible candidates, based on what our reporting has turned up so far.

Mike McCarthy. This assumes the Packers move on from McCarthy at season's end, which is far from a certainty. But if it happens, expect a front office packed with former Packers executives to put McCarthy at the top of its list.

Lincoln Riley. The Oklahoma head coach is on the radar of a lot of NFL teams if he decides he wants to try the NFL. He has been mentioned several times as a potential Jason Garrett replacement in Dallas if the Cowboys decide to make a change. The Mayfield connection makes him an obvious target for the Browns if he's available.

Matt Campbell. He's the head coach at Iowa State and is said to be well-regarded by Dorsey.

Eric Bieniemy. Succeeded Matt Nagy as Chiefs offensive coordinator this year. May be too inexperienced at this point, but teams really like to hire Andy Reid guys.

Jim Harbaugh. NFL people still think the Michigan coach will want another crack at the pros. He'll be a hot candidate in several places when/if that happens.

Urban Meyer. Hey, he's big in Ohio.

Brian Flores. Well-regarded Patriots defensive coach who got some attention on last year's interview circuit. He'd have to come with a strong offensive coordinator and a plan for Mayfield, but those who know him rave about his leadership qualities.

John DeFilippo. Jumped from Eagles QBs coach to Vikings offensive coordinator following Philly's Super Bowl title. He's a former Browns offensive coordinator who's from Youngstown.

Dan Campbell. He was once the Dolphins' interim head coach and remains an intriguing head-coaching prospect for teams. Currently on Sean Payton's staff with the Saints, who may be in the midst of a special season.

Zac Taylor. He's the Rams' quarterbacks coach and, like Bieniemy, may still be too green for an assignment like this. But a lot of teams are going to want to try to get a piece of what Sean McVay is doing out there in L.A.

Dave Toub. The Chiefs' special teams coach always seems to be on these lists, and NFL people believe he'll get a shot eventually. Could it come under former Chiefs GM Dorsey?

George Edwards. The Vikings' defensive coordinator is another guy who gets attention every year but no job offers. His time will come.

Teryl Austin. Bengals defensive coordinator. Ditto what we said for Edwards.

From that article:

that's 22% of coaches compared to 14%-15% of the population. I think guy is just looking for click bait article, because the numbers don't lie. And who is to say that the next coach we hire will not be a person of color?

he then posted this:



Followed by this:



So Jackson deserved to be fired - but should not have been fired simply because he of skin color. Pretty sure that's not how things are supposed to work.

Jackson went 0-16 and was able to return to his team. lol

How about if you can coach, you should coach. If you cant coach (1-31) you shouldn't. JMO

So during camp and the preseason, Haley's attitude was "tape it up and get them back out there, we need to practice!" But during the season, when the games matter, he was afraid they would get too tired. Seems legit.