DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The Problem no one wants to talk about- Dorsey

After reading this article from Sport Illustrated (I consider them to be a unbiased source of sports news. Its no agenda driven) I think the Browns have a bigger problem on their hands then they realize, and that problems name is:

John Dorsey

https://www.si.com/mmqb/2017/06/29/kansas-city-chiefs-john-dorsey-fired-nfl-notebook

To quote the article:



John Dorsey has already started doing the EXACT things that got him fired in KC

1st he trades Carlos Hyde away because he wants his pick Nick Chubb to get more carries (despite the fact Chubb isn't ready and is a poor blocker) Haley was all about playing Chubb after Chubb was able to prove in practice he could block and be trusted to protect his QB

2nd - He trades Josh Gordon away for essentially being late to a meeting. Say what you want, but this organization invested a lot in Josh and nothing short of a failed test should have caused the Browns to move Gordon. Him and Hyde and Taylor were the focal points of our offense all offseason and training camp, This is another move from left field, now Gordon is playing great for the Pats and we are left with maybe a 7th round pick.

I know folks are on the Dorsey train, hell I myself am on that train. I like Dorsey, I do.!

However, I see the writing on the wall. I already see signs of the same exact erratic behavior that causes the Chiefs to move on from him.

this isn't good...Dorsey is a meddler...he is trying to force coaches to play "his guys" thats what the Hyde trade was all about.

Dorsey needs to be the guy who drafts, signs FA, and thats it, It should be up to the coaches 100% who plays on gamedays and Dorsey should have ZERO say...Dorsey tried this nonsense with Reid in KC which is why he isn't there anymore.

the Hyde trade was essentially Dorsey telling Haley and Hue "fine if you won't play my guy, i'll trade yours away" This is so toxic and dysfunctional I don't even know where you go from here. Love or hate Hue and Haley, as coaches they should have been given autonomy over who plays and who sits, Dorsey literally traded away Hyde so they would be forced to play his draft pick...it doesn't get anymore toxic then that of a work environment.

I am very cautious optimistic about Dorsey...im not going to lie...I see the red flags already, i see why Hunt and KC moved on...Dorsey is already doing the erratic things that got him ousted in KC

I hope im wrong, but I don't think this ends well 2-3 years down the road...

So, you're saying that Dorsey is Opie Heckert?

I can see that.

Gordon is playing great for the Pats? Pump the brakes. He had one 100 yard game. Caught 4 for 42 last night and had deep pass go right through his hands last night.

And now, there are reports/rumors that he is already showing up late to meetings in NE.

I was against trading Carlos, but I agreed that Hyde needed less carries and Chubb needed more. Hue was not going to let that happen - as we saw over and over again with other players previously. Hue "was the head coach" and no way he was going to listen to anyone on who should be playing. Hence why they IMO Dorsey forced his hand and traded Hyde. JMO

I think we should have kept Josh, simply because of everything we already put into him and the wait. HOWEVER, I certainly understand having a line in the sand, telling that player the line in the sand, and then acting when player steps over the line. It sucks, but it was probably the right move when you have a locker room of young guys that you are trying to mold into winners.

Its a stretch if you ask me to try to compare those moves to anything other than I explained. We have already seen article after article showing the bickering and discord that that came with Hue and the track record of his decisions in the past and way he's handled things to back up what we are reading.

There are 2 problems, 1 was fired yesterday, IMO. the other has stated they are going to look at the structure at the end of the season and see if there needs to be a change (Haslem).

Lets burn down the house now from top to bottom....yeah, thats the ticket.

Yes. Josh was moved because of this one incident. All of the other things that involved Josh over the years were not a factor at all.

I don't think it's outrageous to be concerned with Dorsey but it is way too early to call him a main problem. The draft picks have promise in Baker, Denzel, Chubb especially.

The FA moves have been most concerning to me. Namely T.J Carrie, Chris Hubbard, & Carlos Hyde. The signing I've liked the most, and perhaps the most underrated, has been Terrance Mitchell.

The only trade that has worked out where we recieved players is Demarious Randall. The TT deal and Landry + extension have not been favorable and we lost draft picks.

We've spent a lot of money in FA and haven't received much of a return there. We lost mid round picks for TT and Landry (the third for TT was a joke). The early round draft picks have been impressive so far.

Dorsey has been wildly inconsistent on the talent acquisiton spectrum for me, I will say that. However, if draft selections tend to pan out (esp. early ones), it will most likely net a successful, sustainable team in the long run.

Gordon was late to one meeting? That's news. I would like to know how many meetings he was actually on time for. Nobody gets traded for being late to one meeting, not even the water boy.

The landry deal would be fine if it played out for him to be the #2 WR like he was supposed to

So, if I'm reading the OP correctly, we have the wrong GM. Of course we do, it's the Browns. Wrong owner, GM, coaching staff and players. It suddenly makes sense.

We don't know if John Dorsey is a problem. There is nothing that we know about that leads me to believe he is.

We know that Hue and Haley were undermining each other and the team (among other things). They were the problem.

Our team was built to play, fútbol.

We are visibly better in a single off season. I'm not calling him a genius, but we are better.

He was probably late to a lot of meetings not just the one, showed little effort and there were reports of him acting strange. After all this team did for him, he should have been with the team and been like everyone else. However, he felt he was above everyone and they had enough. Plus, the Pats even made it public he's been late to meetings with them. If they made it public, you can bet it wasn't one time.

Also, one more failed test wouldn't have been a reason to move Gordon. One more failed test would have him suspended forever. At that point, his career would have been over and we wouldn't get used socks in a trade.

Dorsey is an unknown as it relates to if he is the answer/problem. He hasn't been here long enough to know one way or another. Hue was here long enough to know that he was always going to find someone knew to blame for the team's shortcomings, and thus he was a problem.

The BIGGEST problem with the Browns is Haslem. He is the only constant for the past 7 years of crappola. Hue was a problem, and Dorsey might be a problem or a savior, but Haslem is a problem until proven otherwise.

KC cut ties with him for some reason but it certainly wasn't because of team he built for them ...

Also Dorseys first draft here looks promising so far: 9 Picks 5 Starting as of now with Corbett looking to get playing time and Ratley also getting playing time ...

Round 1, Pick 1 (No. 1 overall): Baker Mayfield, QB, Oklahoma - Starter

Round 1, Pick 4 (No. 4 overall) Denzel Ward, CB, Ohio State - Starter

Round 2, Pick 1 (No. 33 overall): Austin Corbett, T, Nevada - Backup

Round 2, Pick 3 (No. 35 overall): Nick Chubb, RB, Georgia - Starter

Round 3, Pick 3 (No. 67 overall) [Via Indianapolis]: Chad Thomas, DE, Miami - ??????

Round 4, Pick 5 (No. 105 overall) [Via New England]: Antonio Callaway, WR, Florida - Starter

Round 5, Pick 13 (No. 150 overall): Genard Avery, LB, Memphis - Starter

Round 6, Pick 1 (No. 175 overall): Damion Ratley, WR, Texas A&M - Playing

Round 6, Pick 14 (No. 188 overall): Simeon Thomas, CB, Louisiana -m ????

If Baker turns into great QB and wins games = Dorsey Genius

If Baker gets ruined and fails overall = Dorsey Sucks

Honestly, sometimes I think we put too much stock into little nitpicks here in Cleveland because we never win. Other franchises judge the FO/Coaches by wins. Since we never have any we look for every other reason.

I'll take Dorsey over ANYTHING we have had in the past..

I appreciate you sharing the article. I know others have mentioned at length concerns they had with Dorsey based on some of the things he did in KC, most of it dealing with salary cap management.

Time will tell what we have with Dorsey. No one is perfect. I do think its WAYYYYYY TOO SOOONNNN to put Dorsey on a high horse. He's not even a full season in as GM. Pump the brakes.

Remember, he had a TON to work with coming into this situation.

"The Problem no one wants to talk about- Dorsey"

I am going out on a limb here but maybe it is because he is not a problem. If he is a problem I will go root for Buffalo.

Don't worry, he'll be gone after the 2020 season. No one makes it past three years. After the new coaching regime fails to field a wining team within their first two years, they and Dorsey will be gone and we can start all over with high hopes for the future. Again.

Having a ton to work with doesn't mean much by itself.

Ward and Chubb already look a heck of a lot better than Trent Richardson or Justin Gilbert ever did here.

(edit) I agree we shouldn't start the statue yet, though.

Calling Dorsey a problem is the most asinine thing I have ever read on these boards. And there has been some pretty bad stuff.

I think there was a bit of a power struggle between him and Andy Reid. I also think that KC really liked Veach, and they were afraid that someone would steal him away from them.

OH geez now people want to blame Dorsey. IMO the folks who want to do this should take a long hard look in the mirror so they can see where a lot of problems lie. Of course those folks will not be bright enough to understand

I agree. The cherry picking writer is off base. Too easy to pretend you are an authority in hindsight. Gordon in 2-3 years? He is probably gone. If landry is our problem, bring me a few more like him. We are better in one season. SI missed the boat on this second-guessing fishing trip.

Just win. Play harder.

To this writer: If nobody wants to talk about Dorsey as a problem, take a clue! He is not hurting us like some are. Connect a few dots. I like Dorsey so far. If Haslam will let him engineer something good (read better), I am gung ho. Play ball. And ignore some stupid reporting that is trying to build a sow's ear out of our silk purse.

I don't agree. His fingerprints are all over the Chiefs roster and they seem to be doing well.

Your first point about trading Hyde so Chubb could play, because Chubb is Dorsey's guy doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Dorsey brought Hyde here, he choose Hyde for this team. The Gordon situation needed to be fixed, the guy was getting away with everything because the team was in love with his potential.

I think what happened here is the difference between week to week football and big picture. The HC and coordinators are looking week to week, while the GM is looking long term. If you look at the schedule, there are not a lot of wins left on there. At best this team was looking at 6 maybe 7 wins if they get lucky. So, Dorsey was looking at the big picture, which meant, play the rookies and younger guys so he can see what he has in them moving forward. But Hue and Haley need wins now to keep their jobs, so they wanted to play vets, like Hyde, Taylor, and other guys.

Like most jobs, the best way to learn is by doing. Hue wasn't helping Chubb learn by giving him 3 carries a game, and letting Hyde have 23. Dorsey needed to see if Chubb could do the job before next season, same with Calloway and other youngsters.

I'm willing to give Dorsey the benefit of doubt, because he assembled most of that team in KC, and his picks this season have done very well (not just the high picks). And his free agents have done well too.

But like most successful people in sports, these guys have massive egos and they think they are the smartest person in the room. So, I'm willing to give him more time and hope he has success with the personal, but when he hires a coach, he has to let that person coach. If he's not willing to do that, then we are doomed.

On the whole, I like Dorsey. I see some positive leadership qualities that could help make this team successful. I think he gets a lot of small things right, but so far, most of his major decision have been questionable.

So far, it is hard to give Dorsey a good grade and it is not a matter of hindsight. At the end of the day, this is a game where the GM has to make good decisions that they can live with for more than 6 months. If you constantly turnover players and coaches, then you will obliterate the salary cap and not not have any sense of continuity or progress.

1. Handling of the coaching situation. He had the option of assessing the coaches and bringing in his guys before the season. Halfway through the season and we are without a head coach and OC. Either the coaches were good and should have been kept or they were not good and should never have been hired/retained in the first place. Who else does that fall upon if not Dorsey?

2. As laid out in the Hyde thread. This signing and then trade made no sense financially. We are still picking up a huge hit from Hyde's guaranteed money.

3. Wasted time and effort with a drug addict for years only to let him go immediately before the season?

4. Yet we draft a pick with drug problems in the 4th round and make him the starter? as a reward for having drugs found in his car preseason?

5. Surprising everyone with draft selections makes me nervous because it sometimes seems like an ego thing where the front office is trying to look smarter than everyone. Eventually this blows up in your face when you reach for players. Not only does Mayfield need to be good for Dorsey to keep his job, he has to be better than Darnold.

Let's not forget that the Browns were prepared to release the guy.

You can fault the Browns for a lot of things, but letting go of Josh Gordon shouldn't be one of them.

That guy had plenty of chances, and now he's even screwing it up in New England, playing for the greatest coach and QB of all time.

I can't speak for any of the OP's other points, especially about Hyde, but I wanted to get that out about JG.

You don't think the Landry signing was favorable? He is the best WR we have had since the return. Period. Get some other players and end the offensive turmoil on the staff and watch what he does. That TD catch against the Bucs was superhuman. I'd take a Landry over 100 meatheads because Landry WANTS it.

My only real problem with Dorsey so far was signing Chris Hubbard as he was a part-time player and undersized for a RT and then trading Hyde. What happens if Chubb gets hurt? Pound Duke between the tackles 20 times game? We finally had a decent RB room and now we are really thin at the position. Dorsey better draft another RB pretty high next year. Other than those two things I'm cool with his moves and no one bats 100% Ozzy didn't. Wolf didn't. No one does. Let's see who he hires as the Head Coach before we start doubting him eh? He proved me wrong on Mayfield and finding us a QB gets him a LOT of leeway in my book!

Man, I can not understand this love for meathead. Gordon had a million chances and he blew them all. Josh Gordon is the greatest player that NEVER played. If there was a HOF for screw-ups he's a first-ballot guy. I would have cut him the very second he sprang not showing up for camp on them.

"Hey guys, sorry but I won't be in camp this year, I'll be off screwing around as usual"... YOUR FIRED!!! Where do you want us to send your belongings? Of course, I would have cut him a couple years ago. He's a born loser. There's a reason I dubbed him meathead. He EARNED that name.

Landry is no Marque player. He's an above average receiver nothing more. But compared to the rest of the receiving corps he's a Superstar.

He's playing out of position, IMO, and doesn't have the chops or speed to beat #1 CBs. He's best suited for the slot and that's where he would be.

I wonder if the Chiefs fans were saying this stuff... It surely didn't end well with them...

Nah, he thought Kenny Britt and Dwayne Bowe were our best FA WR signings.

He's been a very good WR when he had a qb who was able to get him the ball. Not great qbs. Not even good. In fact, they were all below average. But, they got him the ball, much unlike our qb.

So glad they are gone... Players signings like that kind of get a hopeful feeling...Then it's like watching the FG Kicker missing extra points...Just hurts.