DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Rookie QB's Mid Season Review

sometimes i wonder if we just fixed both tackles, and get baker either another TE or WR, if our offense is just fine after that?

i agree that we should get an offensive HC if we do decide to hire somebody else.

but with good tackles and 1 more playmaker, Baker would be poised to have a MONSTER 2nd year.

Evaluating the effect of a QB with running ability on the game can be pretty difficult. It's one of those situations where stats don't tell the whole story.

For example, the threat of the run certainly makes passing easier. Defenses sometimes put a spy on the QB, which effectively takes a guy out of coverage. The problem with 6 man coverages is that they all stink, which is why teams usually only blitz (5+ rushers) a quarter or third of the time. Cover 1 is the most sound, but even that carries some risk (and you better have DBs who can play man.)

If a team is running zone-read type concepts then the defense often has to bring a safety, or even both safeties into the box, to make the numbers work because the QB has to be accounted for. This limits how the pass can be defended.

This is why bringing up completion percentage without context can be misleading. Look what happened to RG3 when he couldn't run as well anymore.. the passing game fell apart.

A true running threat can have positive effects. We might actually see some of it this week against Carolina. Cam Newton is one of the few, maybe even the only QB in the league who has the combination of speed, throwing ability, and size/durability to actually be used consistently as a runner. And he was, at least for a long time.. can't say I've followed the Panthers this year.

You see things like the edge defender can't be as aggressive on runs, because it might be a zone read where the QB keeps it and easily gets to the edge. Throw in scrambling ability and it can stress a defense on multiple levels.

That's the approach we should take. Of course, Baker has to continue to improve. The coaching matters a lot too. Look at some of the veteran offensive additions to the team. Chris Hubbard, Jarvis Landry, Carlos Hyde, and probably a couple others that escape me at the moment-- did they maintain their level of play from their previous teams?

noticed how you're ignoring the rushing yards?

why do you refuse to put up those numbers?

honestly, answer that. because you're refusing to put up the fact that he also put 11 carries for 71 yards and a TD in that same game.

see thats the difference between you and me. i actually put the entire body of work into consideration, as well as the W-L column into consideration.

as a team, they put up 242 rushing yards against okland. they put up 207 against atanta.

so its funny that you talk about the team, because that only enforces my opinion further. they weren't putting those numbers up under flacco.

lol come on with that stuff man. put the entire body of work up.

Did I not already say that he is an elite athlete? Jackson can definitely run, My question is whether or not he will become a good passer.

I don't know. You say that Mayfield is the better QB and then praise Lamar pointing out Mayfield threw 3 int's in one half. It almost sounds like you're arguing with yourself.

Lamar didnt finish the game ... maybe he did ...

He did get knocked out of it at least ... he was in the concussion protocol .... maybe he cleared and came back .. i ASSumed cause most don’t ...

to be fair with jarvis, we have to remember that was playing with devante parker and kenny stills, i believe.

so he comes here, is our #1 WR despite not really having that skill set, and there's nobody else with experience that defenses have to account for. Calloway is fast but super raw and inconsistent.

maybe its me being a homer, but i dont see a situation where baker doesn't improve. the only way i see that is by hiring the wrong coaching staff....which this is cleveland so thats a huge possibility unfortunately.

either we get a WR in FA, or get tackles in FA and a WR in the draft, or whatever combination we need to pull it off, but those are the positions of need on our offense.

only because ytown stated that lamar had 3 picks over the course of 3 games. all im doing is simply trying to use the SAME standard to evaluate all the QB's.

i mean that would be like me talking about allen being horrible in the passing game....while leaving out the fact that allen is absolutely BODYING people when he runs like he's cam newton. im simply requesting that people paint the entire picture here.

lamar finished the game. and did you see HOW he got "injured"?

it wasn't by a defender. he was running, and the OL in front of him fell down, and his feet went into the air and kick lamar in the face. he went to the sideline, went to the protocol, came back in and finished out the game easily. right back out there running. he wasn't knocked out of the game.

context bro. context.

I would be happy with one tackle ... anything else would be gravy on that side of the ball IMO ..

I would like to give Harrison a shot after a year of TECHINQUE and WEIGHT TRAINING ... that man needs serious work on his technique ... love to see him get a shot after a year or two of development .. he has the feet ...

We could use help at WR but its not imperative ... a year together will do wonders for what we have and Callaway and Higgins and even Willies will be a year older and Callaway and Higgins will have another year of experience ...

Give Bake with them in the off season .... they could be just fine ... dont get me wrong .. the group could use one of the elites but i think it could be just fine when u throw in the other factors ...

Go get a DT or two ..... love to get the LBer from LSU and then another dude inthe secondary ... they can do that in any order they like in FA of the draft .. but i’d Love to see that plan enacted ...

im glad you brought up willies, because he showed potential.

and the thing with baker is that.....man i wonder if WR is what we need, or if we need a TE more?

maybe its just me, but im not really sold on David Njoku. i could be solo dolo on that, but i dunno about that dude.

cause baker is spreading the ball around. thats his game. Perriman has been a pleasant surprise, he's catching everything thrown at him when he has the targets. calloway is still raw but flashing, and higgins always makes a clutch catch in games.

so maybe TE more than WR? i dunno, what do you think?

We disagree just a little bit about the WR position. Not that I think it needs to be a huge investment, but we do need a big bodied, physical WR.

I think that was the plan all along. We had Gordon to fill that role until it was determined that Gordon just wasn't committed to the Browns and couldn't be counted on.

So I don't really believe that plan has changed. We just need a new body to fill that role.

We'll see what happens with Lamar. I don't see a guy who has the frame size to hold up to the number of rushes and hits he's taking. I'll watch closer when the Browns play the Ravens again.

It's a point that people often don't consider.. it's not just a player's running and throwing ability. It also matters how well they can take those hits over the course of the season. Look at what happened to RG3 and Kap (who got benched for Blaine Gabbert multiple times before the Anthem controversy ever started.)

It's really Cam Newton and, to a lesser extent, Russell Wilson (who doesn't really have the size when going by traditional height/weight measures, but you can clearly see the guy is well built and does a good job of avoiding unnecessary hits) who have that combination to make it work in this league in the long run.

I know there have been others-- I'm just thinking about the ones who are in the league right now. Maybe throw Tyrod Taylor in there too, though it probably would have been a better argument last year..

Remember 5-6 years back when the zone read was a big thing? That was not a gimmick. Schematically, it is very sound, and even has some great advantages over more traditional NFL schemes. The problem is the QBs who can run it long-term just don't really exist.

Interestingly enough, I think it was actually the Ravens who developed the strategy that mostly killed it. They'd just have their DE/OLB (often Suggs) just drill the QB every time, even if he had just handed it to the RB. The idea was, ok you might get a first down here, but we're going to tee off on your QB. And it worked. If you're the offensive play caller, are you taking that risk?

Context is everything ... its why i backed off and used the word ASSumed .... i did that and would now like to thank u for shoving my foot the rest of the way into my mouth ...

I dont kinda that i will ever trust Njoku ... his hands have been too inconsistent ...

Not really sure the position matters with Bake .... get him weapons and he will utilize them ... dont matter f the weapons a war or a te or a rb ar an h-back .... at least thats how i see it ...

PIT - is Willies that big bodied, physical wr we need? .... i’m With Swish ... i really liked what i saw form that kid in very limited reps ...

There’s a reason why we didnt sign a guy like dez or Mathews that could have helped now ... King John sees sumptin he likes in one or some of those kids ... that was a long term strategic move that i give a lot of weight too when talking about this ...

I think we need 2 receivers. This with the idea that 3 receivers are basically starters in this league.. Landry being one of them. Callaway is still raw, and if memory serves me right, was one of the rare players who failed a drug test at the scouting combine, where everybody knows in advance that they are going to get tested.

Higgins and Perriman.. meh, not exactly the guys I'm looking for to have a high octane offense and to maximize Baker's production.

thats my biggest concern. and the kind of athlete he is....i mean i wonder if he can actually put on weight even with a good offseason workout program? i mean he looks like one of those guys who wouldnt gain weight if he sat around and ate mcdonalds for a year straight. its just gonna fall off.

side note: man i wish i had that problem lol.

anyway, i was looking at the ravens message board just trying to see what those fans are saying about him. a few posters noted that lamar isn't taking crushing hits. apparently he's actually really good with running out of bounds. his slides suck, but at least he's trying.

thats a far cry from RG3 who wouldn't do either at ALL his rookie season.

my hope is that Lamar starts watching a ton of tape on wilson. Cam isn't fair because he's freaking 6-6 250. he's bigger than pretty much anybody playing defense.

one of the things the ravens fans are saying with lamar is that defense can't seem to stop lamar like other defenses have done against other running QB's. because lamar is faster than all the other guys. Vick even said lamar is faster than him in a straight line on the field. its actually crazy because apparently defense can't afford to stack the box against lamar. thats.....crazy lol i dunno how.

we also have to remember something that doesn't really get talked about: lamar is playing against the best defense in football everyday in practice. so his OC is not only developing plays/schemes to beat whatever team they're playing on sundays, but to try and get success against the ravens defense during practice.

we use to talk all the time about how garrett going against thomas in practice made him better. well the same concept applies to lamar against the best defense in the nfl in practice.

Dez was a head case who played one position in one offense and even struggled with that. That's not exactly the kind of guy you want around your young offensive players.

Agreed that I can't ever really trust Njoku.. hands are too inconsistent. Also, I might be a little old school, but I like TEs to have some blocking ability. It helps in the run game, and let's you do more in the passing game. Like in Pats games, you might see bracket coverage on Gronk... then all of a sudden, he's pass blocking, and someone else gets open easily. That's the kind of stuff you can do with multi-talented players.

As it is, I look at Njoku is more of a receiver, which isn't always a bad thing. For example, he can make 12 personnel (1 back, 2 tight ends) more potent... he's kind of taking the place of a third receiver, but with more size/physicality, and you can line him up in a number of spots.

but thats the thing. if he's gonna be way more of a passing catching TE, fine. but then he needs to have kellen winslow, jason witten, antonio gates kind of hands.

Njoku is....our new greg little.

Hes going against the scout team now in practice ...

That stuffs relevant in OTA’s and TC not so much during the regular season ...

There’s no way the #1’s are out there butting heads in practice during the regular season ...

FYI on Wlson ... hes become pretty much a pure pocket qb this year ... his rushing numbers are pedestrian ... he handing off on about 95% of the read options and hes not running as much when scrambling ... he waits longer to cross the LOS now ..

Hes played much diferent this year ...

Njoku dropped several passes early on, but I don't remember many drop by anyone in the last 4 games.

I actually haven't watched Lamar much yet outside of a couple highlight reel plays. Just haven't been watching much outside of Browns games and a couple marquee games here and there.

Agreed about RG3 though.. he took a lot of hits his rookie year. I still don't think he should have been out there in that playoff game where he suffered that knee injury. I was actually thinking that during the game, before the injury happened. Thought it was irresponsible and we all know what happened after that.

As fast as Lamar might be, you can find someone on defense just as fast. Put a corner in to spy on him, whereas you might use a linebacker on someone like Roethlisberger.

There's a lot of truth to what you say about practicing vs the best.. definitely a good way to hone your skills.

the schemes are still the same though.

as far as wilson, yea i agree. but early wilson wasn't playing like this. early wilson was taking off a ton too. remember, lamar is only 21.

but overall, thats what has me so excited about baker and lamar. bro we're gonna have sunday and monday night games featuring these two going head 2 head in the future.

we're gonna see battles Baker vs watson, mahomes, allen.

sorry....i think darnold is a bum.

I’m not sure what happened to Wilson ... he is playing way different than he did in the last game of last year not just from when he was young ... *L* ..

Was pointing it out to the dawgs that dont follow it as closely as u and I ... he’s COMPLETELY DIFFERENT style of QB this year ...

Not gonna debate u about your boy ... it’d be a rehash of last years debate with Watson ... your 1 - 0 ... i’m Confident you’ll be 1 - 1 ... not that i’m Competitive or anything ... *L* ... no need to hash it out ...

Dawg .. i been waiting for so long for this ... the last couple years i been sooo excited to watch the kids develop ...

Wentz, Goff, Dak, Watson, my boy Mitch, Mahommes ... the 5 from this class ... and FINALLY we have one that could be as good as any of them ...

Still gonna love watching these other dudes develop ... now they will take a back seat to out boy ..... and the best thing ...

BAKES GOT A SHOT .....

Baker has the potential to be an all time great. he definitely has what it takes to be the best QB we've ever had for sure.

again, my fear isn't with baker...its with the coaching staff. i really hope we dont screw this up. cause we finally got our guy bro

Hes got a shot bro ... i’m With u ...

I said to Clem in the Landry thread and i’ve Said it to a few dawgs in PM’s that THIS IS IT ... NOW OR NEVER ...

Our ducks are in a row ... and i HATE that saying ... but they are ... *L* ...

The last 3 years has been the worst run in the history of sports ... thats not an exxegaration ... well ... the end result after that is it set us up like no other before ...

We’ve got a TON of YOUNG TALENT and at the KEY POSITIONS .... tons of cap space and a bunch of not so much quality draft picks ...

WERE LOADED ... this is it ... NOW OR NEVER ...

I hope your doing your ZERO GRAVITY TRAINING ... I know u snuck on to the island ... it’s OK to admit ... theres a lot of u coming out of the woodwork now ... *L* ...

Just wait til next years destination ... whips almost got the shuttle landings down ...

I think Willies "could be". But I believe if they actually felt he was a legitimate contender to fill that role he'd be getting a lot more reps.

U know hes on IR right bro? ...

He was forced into action in the rats game ... made a couple catches including the catch and run that set up the game winner i believe ... or maybe it forced the OT ... it was nothing special ... was a decent play that gained a huge chunk at a key juncture ...

Then he went on IR ...

Its one of the reasons i think at least one or maybe more get a legite shot for another year or two ... he did not make any moves other than /streeter who was strictly special teams until he had too ... that means after Ratley and Willies went on IR ... well at least Willies ... i think Ratley is also but could be wrong ...

I agree with COULD BE ... i just think at least one of them gets a shot to fill a roll ...

And I think this group could do just fine ... an elite #1 would put us over the top ...

And could Perriman fill the “speed” take the top off the D role were looking for ... hes elite fast .... no? ...

Bake...63%...2,639....7.5 ypa...18tds-10ints....91.1....107 rush


Jack...60%.....540....7.0...……...2tds-3ints......73.5....404 rush 3tds


Sam....55%...1,934....6.7...…….11tds-14ints....68.3......61 rush 1td


JosR...54%...1,670....6.1...…..10tds-11ints.....68.2...…..78 rush


JosA...53%...1,223....6.4.…………..5tds-7ints....66.3......389 rush 4tds

I like willies, but I don't see him #1 material at all. I see him in a Higgins type role - a guy that can give a you a professional outing and catch a few tough balls in a game.

I am with you here. I was SOLD on Njoku to go to the pro bowl this year. He has shown that insane athletic flash on plays and has had some decent games, but he has yet to set the world on fire, which with his size and speed, he should do every couple games, IMO.

Agreed. There is a lot of young talent in place at key positions. Many of us have waited a LONG time for this team to turn around.. it might just be too much for some of us if this isn't the time.

The only thing I'll add is that we have to get the coach right. It makes a big difference in how well the players develop and respond, the schemes, the camaraderie in the building, in-game adjustments, and so on.

As they say.. it's a game of inches. One play can turn a 4 point loss into a 3 point win. 4th and inches can be decided by that tiny bit of extra push by a lineman or effort from the RB.

With margins that close, that little bit of difference (from months of preparation on the practice field, in the film room, etc.) is often the difference between a win and a loss. Get the coach who can get that little bit extra out of the players.

I totally forgot he's on IR. Brain fart! lol

When it comes to speed I think we're just fine. Callaway runs about a 4.4, actually a 4.41 at the combine but we both know field speed in uniform is a different animal. I think he gives us the speed. But Perriman is a true burner. Sub 4.3 is nothing to sneeze at.

The questions you pose really can't be answered at this point. Perriman will be a FA next year so whether he'll be back or not is anyone's guess. And while I know you can get the big targets from your TE's, a big bodied WR gives your O another dimension.

We also have no idea how they see Willies moving forward. Is it possible he could fill that role? Yes it is. But do they see a project who was quickly injured when called into action as a viable answer or do they want something more? I really have no idea.

What I do see is some sense of urgency to help shore up a role that is needed in our WR unit. That big, physical WR. Mayfield is young but loaded with talent. Using assets to help support your young QB is something I would have as a priority. This year I think it was more of finding out if we had our QB or not. Now that the answer is more in focus, I would think investing in giving him great options would be a very wise investment is assets. A good insurance policy is a wise investment for the development and future of your franchise QB. Like I said, it may not be at the very top of the list, but certainly on my list.

I can see what you're saying, yet buts and maybes doesn't seem like sound reasoning moving forward.

Does anyone know why at pro days or private workouts they don't put the prospects in pads and make them run in full gear?

I mean look at chubb, ran a a sub par 40 at the combine IIRC, but he seems to be a burner on the field in pads.

It's never really made any sense. The way they run the combine it's far more of a dog and pony show than anything else IMO. You have guys running around in shorts trying to pretend it means something on game day in pads.

Even in pads you could never get the adrenaline and intensity simulated like you do on game day. Football players play football. Track teams run in shorts.

Chubb ran 4.52 - 6th fastest RB time at the combine.

Another example of why the combine is irrelevant.

swish I have just watched three full games where baker mayfield’s uniform was about as clean at the end as it was at the beginning. Zero sacks. This with an o line that probably never played as a unit until they were thrown together mid season. As you know o line play is affected by the talent of the individuals but as much or more by the cohesion gained by playing together as a unit.
these guys are playing better and with time together will continue will continue to improve. We also have a developing tackle and a guard/ center on the bench waiting to step in. Using vital resources (draft picks or free agent bucks) would be a mistake unless someone really “cherry” falls into our lap.
outside lb, run stopping interior d lineman, edge rusher , receiver and corner seem to me to be a way greater need. On the bright side, qb is nowhere on that list.

yet he runs a 4.4 with pads lol

which proves what pit and I are saying.

He walked into the perfect situation to get some early wins.

I'd still be really nervous if I thought he was my long term solution at the position though.

He does have the athleticism that can't be taught, will all depend on how quickly he can pick up on the things that can be taught.