DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum How Good Are We?

I disagree on how big the difference is because of the competition, but yeah, I think we should keep the current coaching staff because the team is performing better than they were under Hue/Haley.

At the very least, with this young team the current staff will have won twice as many games as it lost. Holy Jeebus you can't turn your back on that given what we've gone through the last 20 years. The players are responding to them....these coaches have earned the right to ride this train.

I agree. Let's not overthink this and screw it up. I'd be very surprised - and pissed off - if we don't go with what brung us to the dance.

Are you agreeing w/me [I'd be shocked] or calling me out [for what?]

100% agreement.

Are you trying to give me a heart attack? LOL

Lol. I think it's obvious we should try and keep this thing intact. It's working.

LOL...........I just can't remember you ever agreeing w/me.....other than my Joe Thomas tribute.

That's a good point - and I have seen others allude to Williams Jr doing well and maybe better than Sr.

A week or 3 ago I decided I had seen enough and felt that with 2 wins out of the last 3 games I would want to keep GW as HC, Kitchens as OC and then go hard after Quinn or Bowles (assuming one or both are available) as the DC. . . . I hadn't even considered Williams Jr keeping his slot as DC. I'd still strongly prefer Quinn - but maybe Williams Jr has played himself into contention.

J/C I agree that BW has made the D look better. I see more subtle disguise on blitzes and also less out and out obvious blitzing whilst still being the aggressor. I’ve watched a presser of his and he comes across really well.

I want us to stick with an attack minded 4-3 but where we can just rush 4 more often and disguise coverages. The NFL is offense led. If your D can get turnovers so you get more offensive possessions than the opposition then you win more than you lose.

I think unless we get our derrieres handed to us in Balt it would be illogical and change for change’s sake in not retaining the incumbent staff. I think we need to look at STs though.

Look at it this way. Prior to the season, I recall lots of folk opining 6-9 wins would be huge progress and it would be. By extension Hue would remain I assume because if that. Now GW, FK et al go 5-3 or 6-2 and they aren’t considered somehow “worthy”? It’s so contradictory. It doesn’t take into account the star BM has become for us but he only really started to shine under the new regime. The more you look at it the safer it is to retain or tweak the status quo - this isn’t Mangini winning the last 4 with an aging, slow roster. Holistically, EVERYTHING has been improved.

how is the competition less? In fact, I would say we played horrible on offense against some of the worst defenses in the league with Hue leading the team. Pitt def blows, saints def blows, tampa bay def blow. The only time our offense looked good was against Oakland under hue - a team that is not competitive. . . . so do you care to elaborate how the competition was less when the defenses they played were horrible?

Yes the teams were better record wise, but the offense playing against subpar to below defenses, did not look as good as they do now, against better defenses I would argue.

Once you accept the fact that Haley was running the offense maybe you'll use the proper names in the proper places.

I think it's a fair debate to try to look into how this current team would look going back and replaying the KC, Chargers, NO games (I may be mistaken, but I think that is what this thread is trying to get at). I think KC still whoops our butt. I'm not really sure about the Chargers. NO game was a coinflip and we played well, minus our STs. Houston game is indicative of where we are overall (lots of young talent that should settle in nicely over time).

It obviously wasn't as simple as that.

Hue made the call that Taylor was the QB and that Baker wouldn't get any first-team reps. As Haley said on Hard Knocks.. it wasn't his decision to keep Baker on the bench.

Haley wanted the receivers to get more reps, Hue wanted to make sure they stayed healthy, even if it meant they didn't practice.

Hue was the driving force behind moving Bitonio to LT, still one of the most head-scratching decisions I've ever seen from the Browns, and that's saying something.

Then there's always this doozy from the Sports Illustrated article on Hue's firing: "Then, in the weeks leading up to his firing, he inserted himself back into offensive meetings. The disconnect created by Jackson's inferior knowledge of Haley’s offense, and the players’ unfamiliarity with Jackson’s scheme, frustrated players and coaches alike, according to five sources within the organization."

I like what Kitchens has done here, but it's reasonable to say that Hue was holding the offense back, even if he wasn't officially running it. For not running the offense, he surely had a lot of influence on it. That is, unless you think that picking the QB, shuffling around the offensive line, letting all the receivers out of practice, and inserting yourself into offensive meetings in an offense you're not familiar with is somehow not going to affect things.

How good are we, DVOA edition:

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/dvoa-ratings/2018/week-16-dvoa-ratings

This system has us at 19th overall, but 13th in weighted DVOA, which factors recent games more heavily than early games.

Both the Browns and Saints have improved significantly since that week 2 meeting. Who could have seen that juggernaut coming? Wow!

We can't replay games from earlier in the year, but there is a great opportunity to finish the season very strong, with a win at Baltimore (who have won 5 out of their last 6, with only a close loss at KC) that would most likely knock them out of the playoffs.

I kinda think the Chargers game would be a harder sell than the Chiefs. I think we'd be competitive with the Chiefs and could win the shootout. The Chargers defense is better. At the moment, I give the Chargers the nod for Super Bowl favorites in the AFC.

In terms of the road to the Super Bowl, I'd easily give the nod to the Chiefs over the Chargers. The Chiefs hold the division-record tie-breaker over the Chargers so the Chiefs just have to beat the Raiders in Kansas City to wrap up the 1 seed.

The difference between the 1 seed and 5 seed is 2 home wins vs likely 3 road wins to reach the Super Bowl..

More on this from the same link:


There's a pretty fascinating table which shows Cleveland as 4th in DVOA (i.e. 4th best team in the league, according to these rankings) since week 11. This is mainly driven by the offense.

Yet so many refuse to even consider that Dorsey may have played a part in this too. It was after all Dorsey who made the final decision to give a third round pick for Taylor. People tend to jump to conclusions. Often times because that's the conclusion they wish to jump to.



Didn't practice? I've never heard that one. Unless they were given time to completely heal. I did see that Hue wanted the reps kept down to help avoid injuries. Nowhere have I heard "they didn't practice". Then, even after Hue left, they blamed all the injuries on Hue. lmao Some have decided they will have their cake and eat it too.



If that's the most head scratching move you've seen the Browns make, you haven't been paying attention.



Which in no way says he took over running the offense. Me thinks thou art reading things into this that simply aren't stated.



I'm not convinced that it wasn't a combination of Dorsey/Hue that made the decision to start Tyrod. While Baker has done a great job with his opportunity, the Mahomes situation in K.C. seemed to work out pretty well keeping him on the bench for a year. You do realize that people base their decisions on what's worked for them in the past, right? Please don't try to convince me that Dorsey went out and gave a third round draft pick for an NFL starting QB just to keep him on the bench and that "The Mighty Hue" was pulling all the strings there. I mean it's nice for all the bashers to place every bad decision at the feet of Hue, but it's not that logical.

Once again, WR's "didn't practice" when they weren't injured? It's odd how many posters on this very board had no idea who the answer would be at the LT position and now, it was a bad thing that the coaching staff tried to figure it out? lmao In case you missed it, it took three players at the position to figure it out and we do have an OL coach as well. I know, I know, all of that falls on hue.

And exactly what did he do or say in those offensive meetings to "insert himself"? Take over those meetings? Try to dictate the offensive play calling? Inquiring minds want to know. lol See, vague rambling that really doesn't tell you anything can be twisted in a way that people can take what they want from them and make up what it means.

Hue certainly blew his opportunity when given the talent. But even Dorsey felt he deserved that opportunity. And Hue certainly had his faults. We're a better team now that he's gone.

But at the same time, this isn't a fairy tale and there is no Big Bad Wolf.

We are certainly a better team without hue than we were with Hue. I guess trying to imagine that everything that was wrong with this team suddenly disappeared with Hue and that he was at fault for everything that happened while he was here. And unicorns really do exist.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. Even my (slight?) hyperbole/exaggeration about letting all the receivers out of practice went over your head.

Sooner or later we're going to have to get over this Hue stuff.


I agree, Dorsey felt he deserved that opportunity (or at least said so publicly, not like he had any choice because he wouldn't have gotten the job had he made it known otherwise) and Hue lasted all of 8 games with Dorsey here.

We're a better team now that Hue's gone, as you say. Heck, even Vers has been saying that recently, which makes it all the more astonishing why you guys go so far out of your way to defend the guy.


Anyway, whatever. What do you think of the recent DVOA rankings I posted?

I really don't defend him. I just think piling on with no real evidence for a lot of what he gets blamed for is silly. I'm just as dumbfounded by people who wish to just make up crap to blame him for so I guess we're pretty much on even footing there. It's especially dumbfounding by someone who says "We need to let this go".

I love where the Browns are right now and hope to see even more improvement in the future. With such a young team it's only going to get better.

Everything I said above I either referenced in this thread or have in the past. Water under the bridge.

Agreed about where the Browns are right now and hoping to see more improvement in the future. With such a young team, it should only get better!

...

WOW .... ya .... were the ones that won’t let Hue go ...

How can u say that with a straight face? ...

U guys rip him in EVERY THREAD ....

OL - moron started harrison

Bake - kept him locked up in his basement ..

Chubb - wouldn’t give him the ball or let him play (IGNORING Hue had zero to with the O ... ) ... wonder if he shared a room with Bakein Hue’s basement or had his own ... *LOL* ...

Njoku - hue was the reason for ALL THE DROPS ...

And yet somehow u wonder why we defend him .... WOW .... just .... WOW ....

BRUTAL DAWG ... JUST BRUTAL ...

Best part .. I NEVER ONCE SAID HE WAS EVEN AN OK COACH ... only said he DESERVED A CHANCE with a REAL ROSTER ....

He had 8 games with a REAL NFL ROSTER ... (no QB last year rendered the rest of the talent on the team useless ... ) ... now i will render my FIRST and FINAL verdict on Hue as a HC ....

DON’T LET THE DOOR HIT U IN THE ASS ...

End of the day bro ... QUIT BRINGING HIM UP IN EVERY SINGLE THREAD and there will be NO NEED TO DEFEND HIM ...

Just like sashi ... HE’S GONE ...

How about we all GROW UP and behave like adults instead of CRYING OVER SPILT MILK!!!

Thanks for sharing. Interesting to note that despite various parties telling us our D sucks, it ranks #14 in DVOA. The special team numbers mirror what our eyes tell us though.

I think we are on the cusp of something tangible and special with this core of players and the familiarity with schemes will only help that maturation.

Yeah, some of the wins look better when you consider where the teams were at the time.

Interestingly enough, the last five wins we had were against teams with 6-9 records (this includes the Bengals twice.)

Keep in mind that *how* you win can also tell you something about the quality of a team. The Browns won a few of these games rather convincingly, moreso than the final score would indicate. Both Bengals games come to mind.

People think the D sucks because they get too caught up in yards given up, not accounting for the number of plays the defense has been on the field, the score of the game or game situation, and so on.

It also doesn't take into account for example the famed Greg Williams aggressiveness.. sometimes conceding big plays (yardage) for the ability to create a turnover. Well as the NFL continues to evolve into an offense-driven league, those yards mean less and the possessions more..

That echoes my own (uneducated) views. I’d rather we play to create the turnovers because good teams can turn possession into points. Ideally, we can stymie and suffocate an offense much like we did in NO. If we stick with one of the Williams’, a CB or 2 is going to help achieve that. Our worst games on D have been with Ward and / or Mitchell out and Schobert out. You neee the parts to run any machine optimally.

And I would like to clarify something I said earlier. When I said "making things up" I fell into the hyperbole that has seemed to dictate the discussion overall. The word I should have used to more correctly describe it is extrapolate. Sometimes when different people see the same thing they arrive at a different conclusion.

I try to share some of my thoughts on coaching and general team philosophy where it's appropriate. For example, some overriding themes you might notice:

- Sound, disciplined team (minimize penalties, execute the assignments you're supposed to, etc.)

- Physical, aggressive team with an attitude. Ideally this wouldn't interfere with the above, but if you have to get a penalty, I'd rather it be because a player went a little too hard for the ball rather than some stupid cheap shot after the whistle.

- Effective practices, train players to get better. This varies massively from team to team and accounts for a lot of why some teams "draft better" than others. I'm not trying to discount the importance of drafting, but putting players in a position where they can succeed, coaching them up, and demanding excellence goes a long way!

- Some tactical considerations like going for it by default on 4th and short. Similar observations like if you're down by 8, score a touchdown and are down by 2 pending a try, go for 2. Some of the geniuses in the league see it differently.

- A focus on the overall culture of the team. Locker room stuff if you will. Remember that you're building a team, not just collecting talent. You don't want a guy who is constantly doing things the wrong way, irking everybody around him. You want a group of guys who will practice and play hard for themselves and each other. In this way, the sum is greater than the parts.

I don't remember this quote and I watched every episode.

Can someone link that for us?

Never mind. I just looked it up. It was fake quote by ProFootballTalk. Here is article about it.

https://larrybrownsports.com/football/twitter-reacts-fake-quote-qb-controversy/459806

Interesting. I, like Peter King, didn't get the joke either. Serves me right for putting more trust into PFT than I should have.

That looks like a Florio tweet. True Browns hater.

I will say that I think that was a dumb joke and not even remotely funny.

I'll put this here because I didn't want to start a new topic... It appears some (or someone is) are thinking that NFL is turning the way of the NBA and Baker will be looking for a new team in 6 years and that team is the Patriots. This is based on the notion we will have continued dysfunction.

I've seen bits and pieces of the Super Bowl commercial with Brady and Mayfield (as a torch passing type thing) and it seems some are linking the two.

To me, I think Baker is in it for the long haul. Unless we do something stupid (which isn't out of the realm of possibilities), he's going to be here for the duration. The dysfunction ended April 26, 2018.



I suppose you can only imagine who would say these things, but it's the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard... talk about looking for clicks...


Link

I can see a scenario, possibly some day, in say five, six years where Florio's head somehow finds its way out of his ass.