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I was in favor of a young coordinator type to grow into the job, like so many teams are doing these days.
Well, we have one right here, and he's turned the offense completely around. All of a sudden, we have an explosive offense. We have a great relationship between coach and QB. Isn't that what we're looking for?
I am not saying that he's an automatic hire, but he deserves an interview, and the Browns need to see what his plan is for head coach. I bet he's got a very good one.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
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If given the choice between Williams and Kitchens, I would take Kitchens. I think the actual choice will be neither with Kitchens as the OC.
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Man, people are hopping on the Kitchen's train hard.. I like what he's done, but damn.. can we play a defense that isn't at the bottom first. Let's see his gameplan and playcalling against a very good ravens defense. People love flavor of the months, Kitchens is that. If they pick him, I'm all for it because I trust Dorsey, but I don't see it given how much competition there will be for this job, alot better candidates out there
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
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If we go the route of Kitchens or Reilly or some other “up and comer” than so be it. But if we do, they better be able to do the job. By that I mean I don’t want a HC that needs to be surrounded by more experienced people in order to be mentored until they come in to their own. It’s clearly never worked here ( see Shurmur, Chud, Pet). I don’t think that recipe in general is a successful one.
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While I agree with you in principal, the better the supporting cast is on any NFL coaching staff, the better off that team is.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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If we go the route of Kitchens or Reilly or some other “up and comer” than so be it. But if we do, they better be able to do the job. By that I mean I don’t want a HC that needs to be surrounded by more experienced people in order to be mentored until they come in to their own. It’s clearly never worked here ( see Shurmur, Chud, Pet). I don’t think that recipe in general is a successful one. Just because it hasn't worked "here" doesn't it doesn't work. Cleveland has been a cesspool for everything football related, nothing should have worked. Sean McVay hired Wade Phillips. Matt Nagy kept Vic Fangio. Mike Tomlin kept Dick LeBeau. Anthony Lynn hired Ken Whisenhunt.
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Yeah, I'm not sure I get it either. I do far more with Riley. Zero NFL experience, only two years in college in conference that has never looked up the definition of the word "defense". Seems like a steep mountain to climb.
But we've tried big names to no names and nothing has worked. According to that logic, we may be better off with hiring nobody.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Cfrs and Pit,
I agree with what both of you said. We clearly are better with more experience and just because it hasn’t worked yet doesn’t mean it can’t. I just feel like if we hire a guy and have to include the caveat that they need some mentoring/developing still, it feels like we’d be reaching even with the expectation of a big payoff. How frustrating would it be if the team performance takes a hit because the new HC doesn’t quite yet have the organizational skills to run efficient and effective practices? Or the on field effort wasted because of poor clock management?
I know there’s always a learning curve even with an experienced HC coming to a new team. But when Dorsey announces who will be leading this team in 2019, irrespective of their experience, I want them to be able to do it now.
"Hey, I'm a reasonable guy. But I've just experienced some very unreasonable things."
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I think the biggest question that Dorsey needs to ask is how do we keep this momentum going into next year. Such a dangerous time as we are tasting success, we see growth and a young team learning how to win. It's a gamble at this point how we sustain that if we make some changes. Even with Kitchens, retaining him to be the HC, how does that impact the rest of the team, and if he can't handle the duties, what's that look like from Mayfields development standpoint. As others have said, I do not envy Dorsey here. I think the success we are having is the worst scenario he could have asked for because now its not as simple as bringing in a new staff. This staff has produced, how do you replace a staff thats done in 8 games what the last guy couldn't do in 40
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
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I think the two things you mentioned above are pretty basic and will be addressed in any interview.
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According to that logic, we may be better off with hiring nobody.
You know what’s screwed up, seeing as GW is the interim HC, not the official HC, the second half record of this season supports that lol
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I just can’t envision such a scenario working.
Why would Gregg accept a term limit? He is older, sure, but he says he loves coaching and feels young. So, in your mind, you turn around the fortune of the franchise and then you’re given an end date regardless of any success? Why stay for that?
And, if you’re Freddie, why would you delay a promotion you’ve been waiting for? He likes Baker and Cleveland, sure, but it’s not out of the realm of possibility that he’s sufficiently enticed by other opportunities to leave.
One of the more interesting things said about the coaching situation was when Kitchens said that he probably wasn’t Gregg’s first choice for offensive coordinator. These guys have worked with each other for less than twelve months. Getting them to agree to such an unusual coaching arrangement seems very improbable.
I’ve said it before: If you’re hiring Williams, you’re not hiring Williams and Kitchens for the long term. You’re only hiring Williams with the (reasonable) assumption Kitchens will remain offensive coordinator for 2019. In effect, you’re choosing continuity for one year because anything beyond that is far from guaranteed. And there’s nothing the Browns can do to keep him here if he wants a head-coaching job.
Personally, I’m incredibly impressed with Kitchens, and I’ll be severely disappointed if he’s not granted an interview. If I’m Dorsey, I want to hear his thoughts on improving the offense, his plans for a possible coaching staff, etc.
Because, right now, I think I favor Kitchens over Williams.
I agree. Freddie isn't going to stall his career on a promise and Gregg isn't going to agree with a end date. The best bet to keep both is to promote Freddie to HC, make Gregg associate, and raise him 1.5 a year in pay and mentor Fred. Gregg has a lot more experience. Pay him to pass it off and tell Freddie he needs to listen. I think both know where it stands and will be able to do that. Both have to give. " I am the head coach, but you are my coach,....I am your coach, but you are the head coach"
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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How does that work in practice though?
GW is the head coach now. He gives the speeches. He gets the players motivated. He sets the stage. The players have responded to him.
Now you're asking the players to still have him in the room off to the side while Freddie does the talking? What if Freddie isn't as good at delivering the message or getting the players motivated? The players are going to start looking toward triple G.
I just think it has the potential to backfire. I just don't see how that works in reality.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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I guarantee that if they interview Kitchen, he's not going to say "Let's keep the whole staff together", because if you do that, then why not just keep Williams as head coach. He's going to have a plan, with available coaches, or coaches who might be able to be pried loose .... and maybe some on the current staff .... (after all, he was one of those when Arians took over in Arizona) but I would suspect that the most likely to be retained under a Kitchen leadership would be Henry and/or Wylie ... and a new defensive staff would be on the way in.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Kitchens might get a ton of OC interviews if the Browns don't lock him up, but I doubt he gets any HC interviews other than maybe the Browns.
Of the teams that interview him for HC, I would doubt any of those teams would have an opening that would look anywhere near as good as the Browns job.
I like Kitchens but, I view him a lot like people viewed Jim Bob Cooter a few years ago. I'b be real worried another team would snatch him for an OC job, but I'm not sweating another team making a HC offer.
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I like Kitchens but, I view him a lot like people viewed Jim Bob Cooter a few years ago. I'b be real worried another team would snatch him for an OC job, but I'm not sweating another team making a HC offer. Is this the same Jim Bob that has the Lions Offense pretty much at the bottom ? Sure hope Kitchens doesn't end up like O'l Jim Bob...That's a frightful view.
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Kitchens might get a ton of OC interviews if the Browns don't lock him up, but I doubt he gets any HC interviews other than maybe the Browns.
Of the teams that interview him for HC, I would doubt any of those teams would have an opening that would look anywhere near as good as the Browns job.
I like Kitchens but, I view him a lot like people viewed Jim Bob Cooter a few years ago. I'b be real worried another team would snatch him for an OC job, but I'm not sweating another team making a HC offer. I have absolutely no idea what will happen, but this makes sense to me.
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I don't disagree. It could create a split.
It doesn't have to, but it could.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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With what Williams said has done here, I wouldn't be surprised in the least if HE and not Kitchens is a HC somewhere next year. I think many are overlooking him as not being Dorsey's guy. Who says that what he's done doesn't make him Dorsey's guy?
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
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What your guys thoughts about the locker room? Lets be honest, this is the first time a lot of these guys are winning football games, some the only time in in the pros.
Do you not think these players want GW and Freddie? What happens if a new regime comes in, and they don't see the new regime as legitimate as GW and Freddie? That could create a problem if we go with a coach who is not proven.
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With what Williams said has done here, I wouldn't be surprised in the least if HE and not Kitchens is a HC somewhere next year. I think many are overlooking him as not being Dorsey's guy. Who says that what he's done doesn't make him Dorsey's guy? Bountygate makes him unhirable at that position imio
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He did his time and has been respectable since, I doubt that's still dogs him in the inner circles of NFL coaches.
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With what Williams said has done here, I wouldn't be surprised in the least if HE and not Kitchens is a HC somewhere next year. I think many are overlooking him as not being Dorsey's guy. Who says that what he's done doesn't make him Dorsey's guy? Bountygate makes him unhirable at that position imio i don't believe that for a second. Payton came back and Williams was reinstated. Only ones still talking about it is this board. Williams will be a HC somewhere
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
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What your guys thoughts about the locker room? Lets be honest, this is the first time a lot of these guys are winning football games, some the only time in in the pros.
Do you not think these players want GW and Freddie? What happens if a new regime comes in, and they don't see the new regime as legitimate as GW and Freddie? That could create a problem if we go with a coach who is not proven. this x2, this staff as constructed (sans amos) gives us our best chance to keep momentum. They've found that delicate mix of discipline, competence, and esprit de corps with this staff. People keep giving Kitchens all the credit like Williams isn't doing anything. I don't think kitchens would be successfull as a HC right now, but I do think this staff could be successful next year. Its obvious the players like what this staff is doing and is responding, win sunday and imo it becomes almost impossible to change it.
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
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Williams has been a big part of this, no doubt. He has brought discipline back to the organization. I've read that the team is practicing harder and at a faster pace. One of the players says they are actually practicing specific situations now, such as the 2 minute drill. https://sports.yahoo.com/williams-building-strong-case-browns-next-head-coach-225935513--nfl.html''We just practice real-game situations competitively now instead of having the game be the first time that situation arises,'' Peppers said. ''Let's say it's a two-minute drive, instead of the game being that first time our offense goes into two-minute mode, we do it in practice - competitive. We're the ultimate competitors, so we all want to win that period, both offensively and defensively. I think that's been the main thing that he's brought that helps us win.'' Effective practices, accountability, and competition. A few positives that Gregg Williams brings. 
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Honestly, I see that quote more as further indictment of Hue and Haley vs praise of Williams.
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Sorry I haven't been on here much. Work and the little guy keep me really busy.
I'm with some in that I don't see how Kitchens is ready for a HC gig. He definitely seems pointed in that direction, though. Get Arians in here to complete the transformation and to season Kitchens some more. Convince (i.e. throw money at) Williams to stick around as DC. Make it clear that Kitchens will step in at HC once Arians is done (which will prolly be sooner rather than later). Watch how Kitchens puts together his staff, and hope everything sticks together for a couple years.
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With what Williams said has done here, I wouldn't be surprised in the least if HE and not Kitchens is a HC somewhere next year. I think many are overlooking him as not being Dorsey's guy. Who says that what he's done doesn't make him Dorsey's guy? Bountygate makes him unhirable at that position imio i don't believe that for a second. Payton came back and Williams was reinstated. Only ones still talking about it is this board. Williams will be a HC somewhere Sean Payton had a Super Bowl to his name. Would he have stayed if he were Pat Schurmur? I don't think so, but we'll never know for sure. What I do know is that there are a lot of potential head coaches who don't have a major red flag. Maybe I'm looking at coaching hires as more of a PR move than anything, but when you hire a guy you don't want everyone to be talking about his controversies.
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With what Williams said has done here, I wouldn't be surprised in the least if HE and not Kitchens is a HC somewhere next year. I think many are overlooking him as not being Dorsey's guy. Who says that what he's done doesn't make him Dorsey's guy? Williams won’t even get an interview. Most teams around the league view him as a joke (11 job offers). His only chance to be a head coach again is in Cleveland.
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Honestly, I see that quote more as further indictment of Hue and Haley vs praise of Williams. There is a lot of truth to that. I don't understand how a professional football team could not practice something as basic and important as the 2 minute drill. Adding that back in is obvious. That said, the praise of Williams is real. The way I look at it is the logistics of running a practice with an NFL team is actually quite complex. There are a lot of players, a lot of moving parts, tons of situations and packages to work on, etc. Some players are injured or otherwise limited; things come up. I've watched practices in Berea in the past and have been completely dumbfounded at how much standing around there was. Players not improving because they run a couple drills and then loaf around for the next 15 minutes. It was hard to watch. For the record, these were in the past (many years ago) but it wouldn't surprise me if something roughly similar was going on. Any Dawgs have any info on this?
Last edited by Haus; 12/28/18 11:01 AM.
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fwiw I want Freddie Kitchens as the Head Coach and Gregg as the Assistant Head Coach/Defensive Coordinator.
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fwiw I want Freddie Kitchens as the Head Coach and Gregg as the Assistant Head Coach/Defensive Coordinator. I’ll take Kitchens as HC and someone else at defensive coordinator. As others have said, I think it might cause problems to have both in the building but in different roles.
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I just cant see Jimmy and Dee hiring someone not named Greg or Freddie. They went to Greg and asked him to pilot the sinking ship down the stretch and he did that. They asked Freddie to guide their young QB and lead this offense that was a total disaster and he did just that.
Dorsey probably has his top dawg candidate but he has to come into an interview and tell John, Jimmy and Dee that he has a plan to do what Freddie is already doing with being innovative, gaining the trust of this superstar young QB. He has to explain how he is going to maintain the discipline that Greg Williams has already instilled. He has to sell ownership on how he can build team chemistry when we haven't seen a team with this kind of chemistry since bottlegate.
I think Freddie can be the loveable HC, the innovator the communicator and Greg can be the disciplinarian, the old school guy that can instill the competitive nature along with the team discipline. Pay Freddie maybe 1 dollar more than Greg. You are hiring a true partnership.
AS Tony Grossi recently pointed out, the HC and the GM both report to Jimmy Haslam and you gotta wonder how this will play into the decision. I am just really worried that we come into camp next year with a shiny new toy at HC and the team doesn't respect and respond to him. We have a new offense that Baker has to learn and we get a struggling 2nd year QB and those around him lose confidence.
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Good points. It reminds me of one of your posts where you mentioned how much the offense as a whole has improved, not just Baker. The O-line is giving more time, the receivers are making better catches.
It's a hard sell to bring in new coaches when the ones you have are doing exactly what you had hoped. Why not just stick with the guys you already have then?
The team should go get a resounding win in Baltimore and kick them out of the playoffs, and make this decision really easy for the front office at the same time.
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Also. MR. Haslam should let John Dorsey make the coaching decisions. He's our GM that's what you hired him for and he has been very good so far. Leave it up to him. I'm still trying to figure out why people are even assuming otherwise?
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Power structure in Cleveland is that both GM and HC report to Jimmy Haslam. HC does not report to GM. The GM will head the search but he will bring in his top candidates and he will lead the interview with Jimmy sitting in. At the end of the day John will make his list of who is my first who is my 2nd and who is my 3rd but have no doubts who is making the final call.
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It's a great topic for speculation and opinion.
For me I am at peace. I have not been this way since forever.
We are going into the draft with no really pressing needs. Improvements? Of course.
We have a ton of cap space. We can lock up keepers and go get key adds.
The old stuff about a coaches death sentence and free agents not wanting to play here: Gone.
We are a good team now. And we will get better both with new talent and the maturing of young talent.
Now we still have this decision looming. I am confident in Dorsey. He will go through his process. He will bring in his list. He will weigh all that was stated. He will select what he feels is the right guy. Hopefully Haslam accepts his choice. I mean why would he not?
So I am all good. This will be a long wait till next season. But once it begins we are in for a ride.
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Kitchens might get a ton of OC interviews if the Browns don't lock him up, but I doubt he gets any HC interviews other than maybe the Browns.
Of the teams that interview him for HC, I would doubt any of those teams would have an opening that would look anywhere near as good as the Browns job.
I like Kitchens but, I view him a lot like people viewed Jim Bob Cooter a few years ago. I'b be real worried another team would snatch him for an OC job, but I'm not sweating another team making a HC offer. Is Kitchens under contract for next year? If he is, he can't even interview for positions other than HC. He just signed early this year. Do position coaches typically get multiple year deals? I would think so but that info isn't readily available that I can find.
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J/C
With what Williams said has done here, I wouldn't be surprised in the least if HE and not Kitchens is a HC somewhere next year. I think many are overlooking him as not being Dorsey's guy. Who says that what he's done doesn't make him Dorsey's guy? Bountygate makes him unhirable at that position imio i don't believe that for a second. Payton came back and Williams was reinstated. Only ones still talking about it is this board. Williams will be a HC somewhere Sean Payton had a Super Bowl to his name. Would he have stayed if he were Pat Schurmur? I don't think so, but we'll never know for sure. What I do know is that there are a lot of potential head coaches who don't have a major red flag. Maybe I'm looking at coaching hires as more of a PR move than anything, but when you hire a guy you don't want everyone to be talking about his controversies. Greg was the DC for that super bowl. Also was DC for the titans super bowl team. GW is quite accomplished in his own right. SP was suspended too for knowledge and cover up..to me thats just as bad as executing it, thats a partnership..sorry can't play dumb if you're the HC, you are just as culpable. That being said...noone is talking about it anymore and I seriously doubt anyone would hold that against him.. It may have in the past, but with the lack of quality HC in the league and what's he's done here, someone will look at him
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,556
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,556 |
For me the one thing I worry about if we lose Greg Williams is this teams cocky/confident attitude. They have taken on the personality of their HC. They are aggressive and really do not give a damn about anyone else.
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