DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum End of the Season Rookie QB Stats/Comparisons

Nice.

The two surprising ones for me are Allen and Rosen. Allen has been better than expected. I'll take the hit on that and kudos to Dorsey who actually had Mayfield and Allen 1 and 2.

Rosen's inaccuracies are worrisome. I thought he'd be better. He's not in the best of locations, but I don't know that he should be this bad. I told someone jokingly he will be out of the NFL or relagated to back-up within 5 years. I may not be too far off with that joke.

We'll see how they all do in year 2.

Still too early to judge these guys really and truly.

Allen - I think the thing that jumps out is his overall accuracy and then the number of turnovers from a clean pocket. I am still highly skeptical of Allen being more than an inconsistent highlight maker - brilliance followed by face palm moments.

Rosen - I think it's unfair to judge him based on the lack of talent and the woeful OL. Hope he gets a fair shake.... Do I think Baker would do better given the same crapolla sandwich Rosen got? Yes. But that doesn't mean Rosen can't be very good with better around him.

Rosen just needs an OL and some horribly average WR like Darnold has and he will show massive growth next season.

so swish, is Trent filter a great quarterback?? because he has one ring.

Was that really necessary? Swish has numerous guys getting on his case about his comments. He didn't need one more.

There is a gang mentality to this place at times.

He was a good enough QB to get a ring.

And Vers, don’t worry about it. Its not anything new. But I guess I like winners so that’s a problem with the participation trophy crowd.

Oh well. Go baker, go Lamar!

I agree that Rosen will be better with better talent. But Fitz and Kirk are a better top 2 receivers then the other rookies except for Bake and DJ Johnson is up there with Chubbrock. Rosen was undoubtedly saddled with a bad OL and bad scheme that didn't protect him. My point was that Rosen can't lift the talent of his offense by escaping from pressure and turning would be sacks into non-sacks or 1st downs and imho ultimately this inability hurt his production. I believe IF he had the Browns OL he would have been better but the flipside of that coin is that I believe Lamar plugged into that same offense personnel would yield better production.

j/c:

For years, posters were chastised for evaluating a player before they reached the end of their 3rd year. I never agreed that we shouldn't evaluate players along the way, but I do think it's unwise to put long-term summations on these guys.

I think it would be better to just evaluate how they are currently playing and not make definitive statements about any of them as it pertains to the span of their careers.

There is a lot of football left to play.

Agreed and well said.

Very true... just look at the case of Derek Carr or RGIII, Vince Young, etc etc

But its very good to be in this situation...

I can’t be the only one to notice Winston’s bum ass somehow on the top of this list.

Sometimes the numbers are surprising....but im not really surprised by Winston he's not a bad QB just an idiot

Thanks for posting. It's interesting to look at.

With that said, I question a lot of these numbers that are being put out. Not just the charts you showed, but others as well.

For example, what constitutes a pressure? Do they differentiate between immediate pressure when a qb doesn't even have a chance to see the field and when a qb holds the ball too long and eventually gets late pressure after he has had time to survey the coverages and go through multiple projections? I look at those lists and I think of the OLs. Other than Watson, the top guys play behind very good OLs and the bottom guys play behind OLs that either suck, experienced a lot of injuries, or both.

It's one of the many questions I have because a lot of what I see doesn't always match-up w/the stats that are being posted this year.

That would be my rankings as well.

First off , versatile, what concern is it of yours?? We are all grown ups I think. Second, I really don’t care what anyone else says or some stupid so called gang mentality. I say what I think.

And swish, despite the awful auto correct my point still is that you can take a perfectly ordinary qb like dilfer, drop him onto a team with the 2000 ravens defense and he can win a ring, but he is still a perfectly ordinary quarterback. Call me when he gets his invite to the nfl hall of fame. I’ll be waiting.

Or you can take a perfectly ordinary qb like Jim McMahon, drop him on a team with the bears 85 defense and ......voila... a ring.

Lastly swish, since we will be competing directly with Jackson and the ravens for division championships and playoff spots pardon me if I do not join you in wishing much success on Lamar.

I was coming to the defense of another poster who was being ganged-up on. I don't care if you like that or not.

You think differ rather have a HoF nod or the ring?

I'm pretty sure he would rather have the SB ring... with all of his 136 yards passing per game, his 76.6 rating, his 12 TDs and 11 INTs, the fact that he couldn't beat out Tony Banks for the starting job until Banks went 5 full games without scoring a TD..

Dilfer is freaking awesome.... but then in the playoffs he REALLY lit it up.. 147 yards per game and 3 TDs.. 3 TDs in FOUR games...

I'm sure his back up enjoys the ring too.

You are leaving some information out. The team was in a huge tailspin under Banks. The team then went 7 and 1 under Dilfer.

I think the change from Banks to Dilfer helped the Rats win the Super Bowl.

With that said, can we get back to the rookie qbs and stop w/mine is bigger than yours?

Well sub par QB play is what it is.

I don't understand all the pontificatation about this subject - but this bit right here is dead nuts on. And to be honest calling Dilfer an ordinary (average) QB is a little on the kind side.

People forget that there is 3 years difference in age between Mayfield and Darnold. That has to account for something. They are both in the NFL, but Baker is further along.

Good point. I just looked up the ages of the five qbs.

Baker is 23. Born on 4/14/95.

Josh Allen is 22. Born on 5/1/96.

Lamar Jackson is next. He is 21. Born on 1/7/97.

Josh Rosen is also 21. Born on 2/10/97.

Sam Darnold is the youngest. He is also 21. Born on 6/5/97.

I don't see maturity and age all that closely related.

You are leaving some information out. The team was in a huge tailspin under Flacco. The team then went 6 and 1 under Jackson.

I think the change from Flacco to Jackson helped the Rats win the Super Bowl.



Is history going to repeat itself...?

Yes, I agree.

Not a chance...

Since all their seasons are now over and I’m avoiding actual writing…

Baker Mayfield:

I’m more confident than ever in the future of the Browns because, in large part, I’m a Baker believer.

I love his combination of accuracy and anticipation, his development as a decision maker, his presence in the pocket, and his relentless pursuit of perfection. Those are key ingredients to great quarterbacking. And his competitiveness, energetic personality lifted this team to new heights. It’s been LeBron-esque in that regard.

Obviously, he had a record-breaking rookie season in only thirteen starts. We all know how well he played. He dropped several dimes this season, he performed in the red zone, etc. If I had to bet, I think he will finish behind Saquon Barkley for AP Offensive Rookie of the Year, but his degree of difficulty was much higher. He came into Cleveland with enormous expectations and exceeded them despite the circumstances.

That said, some areas to address:

1.) Sharper post-snap recognition of muddied coverages.

2.) Better situational awareness.

3.) Reduce freneticism with a collapsing, vulnerable pocket.

Those things aren’t unique to Baker, but I suspect the sour taste of the Ravens game will drive him to improve those aspects of his game, and I expect some his strengths to be even stronger for his sophomore campaign, too.

I’m excited for next season.

Lamar Jackson:

I haven’t seen such polarized discussion of a first-year starter at quarterback since Tim Tebow. My biggest observations on Jackson:

1.) His performance catalyzed Baltimore’s playoff run.

2.) His shortcomings present serious long-term challenges.

3.) His passing ability is more advanced than some argue.

4.) His off-season regimen is more important than his rookie season.

Ultimately, Jackson is a 22-year-old quarterback. He’s shown dynamic playmaking ability, leading to a dominant, multi-dimensional running game. He’s also shown a rash of mechanical issues, leading to scattershot accuracy. Because, at the end of the day, he’s a 22-year-old quarterback. Making declarative statements about his future is a meretricious endeavor.

He’s an elite reactive talent. That much is obvious. But he’s a better passer than Tebow, for example. He is capable of throwing with touch. He can operate within the framework of a passing game, provided consistent mechanics. But, way too often, his mechanics are wildly inconsistent. His base drifts, narrows, and widens from snap-to-snap. That limits his accuracy and arm strength, especially on drive throws and outside the hashes. He also needs to become a more comfortable passer under pressure.

All of that improves with a firm, steady base. Right now, he doesn’t have that. So, if I’m the Ravens, I’m connecting him with a private quarterback coach that can teach him techniques without compromising his explosiveness and improvisation within the pocket. Someone like Quincy Avery, who has worked with Deshaun Watson and Patrick Mahomes.

This off-season is critical for his future. The longer mechanical issues linger, the tougher correcting those issues becomes. He needs an off-season of intensive development for long-term success; however, translating something from the practice field to the game field is easier said than done because everything changes when cornerbacks are stuck to targets and defensive linemen are trying to level you. It requires A LOT of lonely work from January to July.

Disclaimer: I watched fewer games of the following three, so lighter thoughts.

Josh Rosen:

I talked about Mayfield’s degree of difficulty, but Rosen experienced a truly horrendous situation. Except for a few players, the Cardinals lack replacement-level talent on offense. And they paired their barren roster with the barren creativity of Mike McCoy.

For the Cardinals’ sake, I hope Rosen is a talented, tough kid. For the cream of the crop, I’m a believer in the value of experience. Seeing the speed of the NFL game for yourself, practice-after-practice and week-after-week, and acclimating with time. In general, I believe those guys benefit more from playing than shitting. But, man, you can ruin the more marginal cases by exposing him to that kind of shelling.

If one of these quarterbacks deserves an incomplete grade, it’s Rosen. He was asked to development in crisis from the first snap of his rookie season to his last.

Sam Darnold:

Still doubt Darnold as an elite prospect. He’s younger than Mayfield, so I don’t expect him to be as seasoned, but I expect more consistency and competence in the face of pressure. Darnold can sling it when provided with a clean opportunity. But clean opportunities are much rarer in the NFL than college.

That said, he got better as the season progressed, which your primary goals for rookies.

I get a bit of a Ryan Fitzpatrick vibe from Darnold, though.

Josh Allen:

I’ll admit that I had a hard time envisioning a path for success for Allen in the NFL.

After his rookie season, I’m still skeptical on the long-term success, but as another poster intimated, he’s got more of a Cam Newton skill set than I thought. Think Cam is a much better passer, but Allen is an intriguing piece of clay to mold. Now they must surround him with weapons.

If the Bills were sold on Allen in January, I would be interested in hearing why McDermott didn’t hire Chud and/or Ken Dorsey to guide his development. Familiarity with both coaches and they have experience with the skill set.

Man, you are a breath of fresh air around here.

You're football post inspired me. I'll take a shot at this.

Baker: Had the best year by far of any of the rookie qbs.

What I Liked:

--Leadership. Has an infectious personality that gets others to buy in.

--Plays w/confidence and swag.

--Can be extremely accurate.

--Has a plus arm.

--Moves well in the pocket. Can elude and shrug-off tacklers.

--Really improved at making pre-snap reads.

Where He Can Improve:

--Footwork on some throws. He can get his feet out of whack at times. These are the passes where he typically loses accuracy. Balls tend to be thrown high or wide. He has good feet. Now, it's a matter of discipline and muscle memory.

--Struggles a bit w/post-snap reads. He's great if that first read is open, but holds the ball too long if it isn't.

--Work on the maturity.


Concerns:

--Our OL was awesome. But, I wonder how Baker will respond to quick pressure? I saw some things I did not like against the Chargers, Steelers, and at the end of the Raven game. Tends to get get off his platform and plays a bit harried in those situations. He's not always going to have such great protection.

I'll be back later for my takes on the other guys.

I also think Baker was the best rookie QB, by far. To say I was pleasantly surprised would be an understatement.

There is one other thing i noticed about his game that I would like to see him improve. I have not really seen it mentioned, so maybe I am imagining it, maybe it is not as big of a deal as I think. Not that I see it as catastrophic.

There were times where Baker had a guy wide open 10-12 yards down field but he chose to go deep, to a guy who was not open. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it did not. Somewhat of a gunslinger mentality, but sometimes 12 yards is OK.

I was directly responding to your quote on age.

And while you're right that they're all young, we've seen a very distinct different amount of poise and maturity levels from rookie QB's.

i hope to the moon the Cardinals don't do Rosen like that...