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J/C - If Wilkes is the secondary savant he is portrayed as he will find a way to utilise Ward et al back there so they are geared to succeed. I’m pretty certain that’s why they interview these guys - for chemistry and fit, schematically and to the roster. I’m on board with the hire based on the Carolina resume. I found this which was interesting - https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-man-v-zone-which-nfl-team-ran-each-the-most-in-2017We played nearly as much zone coverage in 2017 as the Panthers. I think being able to flex between press man and zone will help. We obviously played more zone that season as we didn’t have the horses to run press man as GW liked. That was one of my frustrations with the GW scheme - it’s aggressive but has to have great press corners and a free safety able to play with range. We lost players and immediately looked like a car running minus a cylinder. I’m hoping we have fall back plans, schematically, but I understand why it was like that. It’s a complex scheme and players needed time to become comfortable in it. Final thought - I wonder how long Wilkes will be here. Guy was obviously keen to become a HC and was dealt a rough hand IMHO. Should have just read this first .... wouldn’t have even made my post ... way shorter and made the SAME POINTS ...  FOLKS are making ASSumptions w/o having a CLUE about personal ... LETS GOOOOOOoooooooooo ...
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Us older dawgs don’t deserve it ... *LOL* ... Deputy’s got his panties in a bunch cause he thinks were gonna play 3 safeties in coverage when we only have one that can cover .... according to the posters that know this way better than me we only have 1 Safety that isn’t REALLY BAD in coverage ... and deputy thinks were gonna run 3 safeties out in coverage based off what he did ast year with MUCH DIFFERENT PERSONAL .... Thats just STUPID .... really really STUPID .... THE SKY IS FALLING ... THE SKY IS FALLING ....  .... LETS GOOOOOOooooooooo ....
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I think you have been misinterpreting what some posters have been saying. Please don't try and stymie real football conversation. You don't like all the fighting and personal attack stuff, so why in the hell are you trying to discourage football talk that is devoid of personal attacks? I was eager to post some thoughts on what a couple of posters said and your last two posts has kinda killed my enthusiasm. I just don't understand why people try to discourage talk about football. 
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I was eager to post some thoughts Well I'm eager to read some good football stuff as I enjoy my cup of coffee this morning.. The Hiring of the staff personal is intriguing.... so please add anything to get my morning exciting about this staff coming together.
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Okay. I think the points that Deputy, Niolin, and cfrs brought up were all valid. I don't think anyone is criticizing what we are doing, but rather are speculating on what may occur.
The one thing that I want to make clear before proceeding is that NFL DCs use a variety of fronts and coverages. They aren't married to any one front or any single coverage. Mixing things up is important to help confuse the offense and not shed too much light on their tendencies. I showed a couple of videos of how GW would give the defense a straight Cover 2 look and then the team would play Cover 4. Another had us in one look and then we played one coverage on one side of the field and another on the other side of the field. The message is that we can't make blanket statements that narrow things down too much.
With that said, I want to bring up a few of the points made earlier. I don't have them in front of me and might forget one or two, but here goes.
--Playing 3 safeties. I like the idea. We saw SD have great success w/it last week. I like that it puts more speed on the field. However, when I said I wasn't sure about it in an earlier post, it was because I don't like either Peppers or Kindred in coverage. I feel they would be liabilities. I do think that there will be some down and distance situations where that lineup can be sprinkled in, but I don't think it will one of the primary packages. Of course, I am just speculating and could very well be incorrect.
--Zone coverage was another thing brought up. As I mentioned in the first paragraph, teams who play man also play zone coverage. It's nothing new. Thus, we have experience in zone coverages. I completely understand that Ward is a great press cover guy, but I think he has great vision and instincts. Do you guys remember his first pick against Big Ben. He was covering one dude, read Ben's eyes, came off of his guy and darted in front of the Steeler WR for a pick. Plays like that tell me that he might be pretty damn good in zone coverage. He has great ball skills, good vision, and makes very fast breaks on the ball.
That's it for now because I can't remember the other stuff, but I might add on to this if it is worthy of conversation.
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Nice post to read as my coffee wakes me up and gets me ready to head into work for a few hours.
Reading good posts and peoples thoughts and insights on these hiring's sure gets me excited about everything coming up..from watching the combine to the draft.
Getting pumped up to see what players out there, that may be in sight of the new staff and JD to join the team. All this information helps me look at players who may come aboard to fit into the new Staffs plans.
Thanks Vers...
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He'd be a great hire for the OL.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Last edited by GratefulDawg; 01/12/19 11:13 AM.
You know my love will Not Fade Away.........
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I have a statement and a question.
I believe that our DTs get pushed around too much on defense. I really like Ogunjobi, but he is light in the pants and gets pushed around against the run. Coley is not a dominant run stopper and neither is good at eating blockers.
Who would play the Nose? Not sure on this roster, most are penetrating guys, or are supposed to be. I'm sure if necessary, Dorsey could find a guy in FA or the draft. Shelton would probably be able to get back if necessary. I guess I would say there would have to be some change, but I don't think it would have to be a total overhaul. I would say that I expect them to hire someone who can identify the talent we have and run a defense that would suit their skillset. I guess it is just going to be a wait and see kind of thing.
RIP, Jim
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From what I have read is he ran an attack style 4-3 in Carolina. The difference from what Gregg ran here is a lot of zone coverage. I'm hoping that changes because I didn't think we looked nearly as good when we ran zone last year. ^ This. We've been building a man-coverage team, with guys like Denzel that stick to their man and make plays on the ball. I don't mind some zone, particularly when it's used to disguise man, or to change things up depending on down, distance and field position, but a base zone scheme to me means that the WRs are open from the snap. We tend to get eaten alive with short quick passes against our zone, and it has killed us in the past.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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--Playing 3 safeties. I like the idea. We saw SD have great success w/it last week. I like that it puts more speed on the field. However, when I said I wasn't sure about it in an earlier post, it was because I don't like either Peppers or Kindred in coverage. I feel they would be liabilities. I do think that there will be some down and distance situations where that lineup can be sprinkled in, but I don't think it will one of the primary packages. Of course, I am just speculating and could very well be incorrect.
I was thinking similarly...but I'm not as down on Peppers in coverage as you are. I think he got better once he climbed out of the lake...but he still has a long way to go. I think he will continue to improve...it's still "new" to him IMO. I think the problem with the 3 safety thing is the 3rd safety. Kindred looks more like a FS physically but is limited to SS and is not improving in coverage. BBC is a guy I really like...but not THAT close to the LOS. If we do entertain the 3 safety look, I think Kindred will be upgraded...I think TJ Carrie might make a decent SS...he's thick and strong and decent-enough-for-a-SS-type in coverage.
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I'm so glad Wylie is gone. Although, it will be sad no longer seeing what it would look like if a walrus and David Crosby had a love child.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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If we sign Wilkes as our DQ, how does his philosophy differ from Williams? What style of defense does he like to run?
I just want a winner. We need players who can be part of the solution not part of the problem.
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I like the work he did with Bakhtiari. I'm less impressed with his run game coordinating. Hopefully that's more on McCarthy. We've definitely had worse OL coaches.
![[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]](https://i.ibb.co/fkjZc8B/Bull-Dawg-Sig-smaller.jpg) You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
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If we sign Wilkes as our DQ, how does his philosophy differ from Williams? What style of defense does he like to run? He ran an aggressive 4-3 with a fair bit of complexity in mixing the zone coverages and blitzes. Long-term I like it, but may be some struggles early. I'm curious to see how he adjusts things for our personnel.
You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
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j/c:
Sometimes it seems like putting things in tweets somehow makes the statement more true. LOL
Wylie was 27th by this guy's rankings of OL coaches? How so? Cleveland's OL was one of the best OL's in football this year and no one saw that coming.
Wylie is gone and I'm not pining for him, but I hate having my intelligence insulted by pure ignorance.
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Either one of the block-eating run stoppers Dorsey let go in the last offseason?
Since Shelton has been riding the bench I think we can rule him out.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Jamie Meder is available. The Perogi Prince of Parma abides, waiting for our call. Yeah, Shelton riding the bench and Meder on the couch. Why did we let that great talent get away!!!???
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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From what I have read is he ran an attack style 4-3 in Carolina. The difference from what Gregg ran here is a lot of zone coverage. I'm hoping that changes because I didn't think we looked nearly as good when we ran zone last year. ^ This. We've been building a man-coverage team, with guys like Denzel that stick to their man and make plays on the ball. I don't mind some zone, particularly when it's used to disguise man, or to change things up depending on down, distance and field position, but a base zone scheme to me means that the WRs are open from the snap. We tend to get eaten alive with short quick passes against our zone, and it has killed us in the past. I will just have to repeat what I've seen others post which makes a ton of sense. Did he have the personnel to play man at that time? Just look at us in 2017. Our secondary was putrid. We were often times playing 10 yards off the WR's. We simply didn't have the personnel to run the D we wanted to run. Sometimes I think we judge what a coach wants to run based on what he was forced to run due to his personnel limitations. Just think, had Gregg Williams been fired at the end of last year and people were basing the type of D he ran on what his D looked like in 2017, people would swear he ran a soft D with his DB's playing 10 yards off the WR's. And we both know nothing could be further from the truth.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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The only way could be if the overvalued the Tackles at the start of the season. The OL improved by leaps and bounds as the year progressed. We were 19th in sacks allowed, but improved dramatically once Kitchens started calling plays. We were 11th in yards/rush, and 11th in rushing TD. That sure sounds like it should be a better rating than 27th for the coach. 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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j/c...
I know just the end of this thread but...
1. A lot of the talk by posters on who plays where in 3-4 base D is just speculation game playing stuff doesn't mean they want that D. btw Larry would be a 3-4 DE 
2. Wilks is good for Kitchens as he is experienced and capable of putting together a D without too much time and attention by Kitchens.
3. The fact we are looking and possibly have hired an OL coache without first hiring the OC pretty much tells you its an O Asst type of coach to help Kitchens with the day to day details for practices...but its Kitchens Offense. Sort of a Maurice Carthon type in Dallas back in the day.
4. Official notice of Kitchens as our HC, great. Looking to go full steam ahead.
5. I seriously doubt Dorsey would go out and get somebody he traded or let go recently. He'll get some other Fatty for NT...lol 
So we probably got our DC soon all his assts. will follow. ST coach. of course we better not be getting rallies cause of his gay comment 6 years ago...well at least he's not hosting the Oscars...lol
We probably got our OL coach which is an important hire.
I liked Wilie he needed an asst OL coach to do the running around for him as he obviously didn't do any running around but I thought he had goood philosophies on OL play.
Still to be hired is the OC although that is more stand in than take command guy considering we got his OL, QB coach hires already probably his most important influences...so basically we got our OC and his name is Kitchens.
Lets Roll baby!
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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If we sign Wilkes as our DQ, how does his philosophy differ from Williams? What style of defense does he like to run? He ran an aggressive 4-3 with a fair bit of complexity in mixing the zone coverages and blitzes. Long-term I like it, but may be some struggles early. I'm curious to see how he adjusts things for our personnel. I'm liking the idea of Wilkes. Sticking with basing our roster on the 4-3 and staying aggressive is exactly what I was hoping to see. As for the Zone vs Man thing... we're going to do both as has been stated. For those saying that he is a Zone guy while pointing at a sample size of one season as DC with Carolina, I would first ask three questions: who did he have in his secondary that season, what teams did he face, and who was healthy/injured during times of running lots of zone? Those factors greatly influence how you end up playing a given game far more than simple philosophical leanings.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Maybe this is common knowledge, but I wasn't aware that Sean McVay employs a clock management specialist to advise him, in-game, about game tempo decisions and calling timeouts. For the 2019 season, he hired a guy named Jed Fisch from UCLA's coaching staff and gave him the title "Senior Offensive Consultant", after experiencing problems with time management in his first year. http://footballscoop.com/news/sean-mcvay...ve-coordinator/This might be a good idea for Kitchens to consider, especially if he intends to hold on to play-calling responsibilities.
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From what I understand, and I haven’t watched a ton of his defenses, Wilks is a big believer in bringing pressure with a healthy mix of zone coverages behind that. Seems the defense will retain an aggressive identity that fits most of its personnel. Bit disappointed that Ward will transition away from a press-man corner, but zone-heavy schemes can still produce impactful corners.
We don’t know that ... what was his personal with the Panthers ... what was his personal with the Cards .... your ASSuming an awful lot based on one year as a DC and 1 yer as a HC ... Would LOVE for someone to find the stats on how much zone he actually played in Zona with Peterson before we start just making BLANKET STATEMENTS about how he’s going to UTILIZE OUR TALENT ... Thats a PRETTY BIG ASSumption to be making ... Yesterday U guys were all worried we were gonna hire a 3 - 4 guy ... that made NO SENSE ... and what did we do ... went out and got not only a 4 - 3 guy but ones that KNOWN TO BRING THE HEAT ... sound familiar? ... Now ya’all are JUMPING THE GUN WORRYING about weather were gonna play zone or man when we have NO CLUE how he will utilize what we have here ... Deputy was WRONG about a 3 - 4 D and now he’s got his panties in a bunch over the fact Zona used 3 safeties when he has NO CLUE what there personal was ... he thinks the DUDES A MORON and if gonna play THE SAME SCHEMES REGARDLESS OF TALENT ... Just look at our D in 17 ... Williams brough the heat but he didnt hve the personal to PLAY HIS PRESS MAN ... crap our DB’s were 15 yards off the LOS and Pepp was playing in the lake ... with Ward and Randall and Mitchell and a 2nd year Peppers .... DIFFERENT PERSONAL it was an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT SCHEME in the back ... Ya’all are ASSuming an awful lot ... If DUDES GOT A BRAIN he’s gonna adapt his cover schemes to the PERSONAL WE HAVE not what he did in Zona or Carolina ... Interested to see how he uses Peppers. Frankly, I’d rather utilize Peppers as a sub-package linebacker than watch him struggle to cover the deep areas of the field again. Hope they believe Boddy-Calhoun can play alongside Randall. Otherwise, I hope they target a second safety in free agency or the draft.
Why would u want Peppers off the field ... i’m No expert ... but he was a STRENGTH for us lay the end of last year ... this is not my area of expertise but I know he at least had a few FLASH PLAYS a game ... SMART COACHES utilize there TALENT and don’t take there PLAYMAKERS OFF THE FIELD ... Maybe dude will switch to zone (its not like we’ll never play man) ... right now NONE OF US HAS A CLUE ... unless your well versed on his talent at his last two stops ... I keep telling u guys we have COMPETANT PEOPLE running the show ... and bringing in people that WON’T UTILIZE OUR TALENT is DUMB .... and we should all be THRILLED that the words DUMB and BROWNS are no longer synanums ... LETS GOOOOOOOOooooooooooo ... THIS IS DIFFERENT and ya’all NEED TO START ACCEPTING IT .... LETS GOOOOOOOoooooooooooo ... A few things: 1.) I was speculating based on his association with other coaches that are known for favoring zone coverage and the percentage of times he called zone coverage as a play-caller. I even used words like seem, suspect, etc. Most discussion will be speculation between now and August. But your point about Carolina’s secondary is valid. I can understand why they played zone for 70% of snaps because they didn’t have corners with press-man skill sets. But, as you alluded to, Arizona did (Peterson) and Wilks’ defense dropped him into zone coverage more than ever before. Per Pro Football Focus, the same supplier of the 2017 statistic: Peterson has been deadly as a matchup man corner, but now he’s replicating that prowess playing far more zone coverage than ever before. He’s allowed seven catches on 14 targets, with only two of those catches resulting in a first down and five resulting in coverage stops. Will Wilks utilize Ward, Mitchell, Carrie in more man situations? Maybe. Maybe zone usage drops from 70% to 60%. But there are a number of indicators that suggest we will be a predominantly zone defense in 2018. Which is fine. It suits other aspects of our personnel. 2.) I said Ward can still be an impact player even if he does transition away from heavy man responsibilities. I think Wilks will put him in positions to break on the ball, route from depth and disrupt the passing game in a different way, and Vers later gave a great example of his ball skills in zone. 3.) I want Peppers on the field. I do not want Peppers playing in split-safety positions. That’s how we used him in 2017. I want him alongside Schobert, closer to the line of scrimmage in obvious passing situations. Like how we used him in 2018.
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Maybe this is common knowledge, but I wasn't aware that Sean McVay employs a clock management specialist to advise him, in-game, about game tempo decisions and calling timeouts. For the 2019 season, he hired a guy named Jed Fisch from UCLA's coaching staff and gave him the title "Senior Offensive Consultant", after experiencing problems with time management in his first year. http://footballscoop.com/news/sean-mcvay...ve-coordinator/This might be a good idea for Kitchens to consider, especially if he intends to hold on to play-calling responsibilities. The Browns hired an analyst to assist coaches with game management and special projects. His name is Dave Giuliani. And, as far as I know, he's still employed by the organization. Link: http://www.espn.com/blog/cleveland/post/...im-at-all-times
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You know my love will Not Fade Away.........
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Thanks for supplying the info on Peterson and the fact they played more zone ... wonder what % it was and if it increased or decreased throughout he course of the year ...and i wonder what our % was .... Can anyone dog that up? ... U have to mix it up either way .. i’m not worried at all .. appearantly having faith in our current FO and HC isn’t talking football to some ..  ... I LOVE the direction of this team ... and if we hire Wilks .. it’ll just CONFIRM my belief that we have COMPETANT people running the show and won’t do STUPID THINGS ... It sure is NICE FOR A CHANGE ... we have an ACTUAL FOOTBALL ORG. .... Willie against the rats and there wishbone offense ... 3 safeties makes sense ... why in the world would u ever want to play 3 safeties on passing downs unless your 3rd safety’s it one hell of a cover guy and your 3rd and 4th corners STINK ... They guys i respect on here say we TWO THAT CAN’T COVER .... why would we ever want to use 3 of them when u have Ward, Mitchell and last year (no clue how long there signed for) Gaines and Carrie .. Makes no sense to me ... but i’ll rely on the guys that know more than me ... LETS GOOOOOOoooooooooo ...
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I would assume most want Peppers to line up as a linebacker.
So, with current personnel, a defensive line of Avery, Ogbah, Ogubjobi, and Garrett.
A second level of Schobert and Peppers, where Peppers replaces Collins and/or Kirksey.
A secondary of Ward, Mitchell, Carrie, Randall, and Boddy-Calhoun.
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U talking base or passing situations?
I would take Gaines over Carrie or bbc ... is Gaines or Carrie FA’s?
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U talking base or passing situations? Base is passing situations.
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I would assume most want Peppers to line up as a linebacker.
So, with current personnel, a defensive line of Avery, Ogbah, Ogubjobi, and Garrett.
A second level of Schobert and Peppers, where Peppers replaces Collins and/or Kirksey.
A secondary of Ward, Mitchell, Carrie, Randall, and Boddy-Calhoun. This seems reasonable, except I think Coley is instead of Ogbah, Kirksey is in instead of Peppers, and Peppers is instead of Carrie with BBC replacing him. It's obvious, but we're going to need someone to play inside on the line with Ogunjobi. Ogbah is strictly a backup to me. Another safety would be great too.
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6 db’s is not the base ... u can play peppers as a lber but that dont make him a lber ...
If we line up hat way on 1st down were gonna get run all over ...
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6 db’s is not the base ... u can play peppers as a lber but that dont make him a lber ...
If we line up hat way on 1st down were gonna get run all over ... Depends on who you are playing. The base, to me, is whatever a team is in the most. Peppers is a true hybrid. Sometimes he is a linebacker, sometimes he is a safety.
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Sorry, obvious passing downs. Putting as many pass rushers and as much speed onto the field as possible. That defense would get gashed otherwise.
And I believe Gaines is a free agent.
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OP
Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 |
Sorry, obvious passing downs. Putting as many pass rushers and as much speed onto the field as possible. That defense would get gashed otherwise.
And I believe Gaines is a free agent. If that's the case, then the alignment you gave is the best given the current personnel.
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Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 9,305
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 9,305 |
j/c:
Sometimes it seems like putting things in tweets somehow makes the statement more true. LOL
Wylie was 27th by this guy's rankings of OL coaches? How so? Cleveland's OL was one of the best OL's in football this year and no one saw that coming.
Wylie is gone and I'm not pining for him, but I hate having my intelligence insulted by pure ignorance. If you click the link in the tweet to go to the rankings, it seems to be that it is kind of a lifetime achievement type ranking. It looks like a bad year offsets a good year, while a bunch of slightly above average years would be additive and inflate a ranking. Also appears to be more results based than coaching based. Strictly based on sacks and TFLs given up by teams he was coach of, not talent available or improvement.
You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188 |
Thanks ... appreciate the clarification and the chat ... Enjoy ... LETS GOOOOOOOoooooooooooo ... I’m really PUMPED about his football team ... can u tell ... *L* ... LETS GOOOOOOooooooooooooooo ... .
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 878
All Pro
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All Pro
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 878 |
A-moe-ba!!
A-moe-ba!!
A-moe-ba!!
No amoeba, no peace!!
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