DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus The Wall. An Honest Discussion.

Okay, I'm going to say in opening that I support a border wall. At least in theory. I will explain my reasoning in the conclusion of my post. But it would be nice to look at what we know and what we don't know. What we've been told and the ever evolving story that has taken place since. How much of the discussion has been honest and how much is political rhetoric.

Disclaimer: I know there will be the usual suspects who have no intent on carrying on an actual discussion. They'll do silly things like post memes, say silly things like "answer yes or no", because they don't like actual discussions or addressing facts. But hopefully they can be ignored and we can have an actual discussion.

What Does This Wall Actually Look like?

First we were told the wall would be 30' tall and three feet thick. Made of concrete. Sometimes it was even stretched into being 50' tall. We saw the dog and pony show of contractors presenting their wall sample panels for a photo op. Huge concrete sections that were scrutinized. Now it has turned into a fence made of steel slats. To clarify.... A wall is solid and can't be seen through. A fence has slats and you can see through to the other side.

So does anyone even know if there is a final plan on what it is exactly that Trump intends to build and where this amount of 5.7 billion to build 217 miles of border wall come from?

How Much of the Border does Trump Wish to Build a Wall On?

As of now, the current shut down involves Trump wanting 5.7 billion dollars to build 215 miles of border wall. Where and why? I'm sure there are areas that have a much higher need for a border wall than other areas. It would be nice to know where these areas are and what criteria is being used to define why these areas are targeted.

What we're not being told is.... does Trump plan to build more than this 215 miles of border wall? Will he "be proud" to shut the government down over and over again to continue building more wall? Will this be an ongoing political tool he'll use to continue building the wall in segments?

The Deception.

Trump has issued statements to instill fear and shock into people that are far from honest. He gives the total number of illegals to try to insinuate they're coming across non legal entry points. That is false. Over half of all illegals in our nation came here legally and overstayed their visas.

The D.E.A. themselves openly admit that the majority of drugs that come across our southern border enter our nation through legal points of entry. Paco isn't supplying our nation with a few bricks of heroin in his book bag walking through the desert. But once again Trump tries to sell the border wall by stating the total amount of drugs entering our nation and pretending that Paco is the nation's supplier.

And last but not least, we were told Mexico was going to pay for it. While tens of thousands repeated those chants in campaign rallies across the country, most people with at least an ounce of common sense knew this was an outright lie. Now we're told that Mexico will pay for it through the new NAFTA deal. That too is a lie.

Terrorists Coming through Our Southern Border?

Another pantently false allegation. Many more terrorist suspects are caught attempting to cross our northern border with Canada than our southern border with Mexico. Only six suspected terrorist suspects have attempted to cross our southern border compared to over 40 from the Canadian border. These facts come from U.S. Customs and Border Protection. So it's simply a fear tactic being used.

http://fortune.com/2019/01/07/4000-suspe...eports-customs/

The Threat of A National Emergency and the Possible Consequences

Now I don't know about you, but I've never seen an emergency that "can wait". If my furnace goes out and it's -10 degrees outside, I'm not waiting to fix it. That's an emergency. I'm not going to say, "Well let's give this a month and see how things go".

The president of the United states has a lot of leeway on calling for a national emergency. So IMO I think he can do this. But those calling for it will be opening a door they will most likely regret.

IF Trump goes down that road, what's to say that a Democrat won't do the exact same thing with climate Change? After all, the vast majority of scientists say that climate change will be the end to mankind. ( and no, not the wrestler )

How about healthcare? I mean after all, our own citizens are going uninsured and we currently rank in the mid 30's in healthcare globally.

My point is, be careful what you wish for. Some tools can be used against you when put in the hands of others.

Comprehensive Immigration reform.

This has become the biggest issue with me. I won't go as far as to say that "This is against brown people", but let's look at the big picture here. Trump not only wants the wall, but he's also interfered with applying for political asylum. He's also turned down 20 billion for the wall because he refused to include DACA with the funding of the wall just a year ago.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/arc...ll-daca/551288/

As it stands today, political asylum, a legal process, has been turned into a joke. DACA was destroyed and people can't see anything but "build a wall" or "don't build a wall".

This isn't that simple.

Why I Support a Wall

In case anyone missed it, I said that, "I support a wall in theory". I support an immigration reform package that includes a wall. I think common sense is something missed in all of this.

Far less than half the drugs entering our nation is coming through our open borders. But what if we only stop 30% of the drugs crossing our border? Isn't that worth building a wall for?

Over half of the illegal immigrants in our country came into our nation illegally. But isn't stopping 40% of the people coming into our nation illegally worth building a wall for?

I think so. But only if we can come up with a comprehensive immigration policy that makes sense. Something practical rather than the "us vs them" mentality we are seeing now.

While I don't expect it will happen, it would be nice to see this White House use a little honesty and try a little compromise. Present the real facts and big picture of how much wall and where. An answer to DACA and the asylum process to America. They could actually convince the majority of americans if they tried this.

Or they can keep beating the drums of war and cater to their base. To this point, we can see which road they are following.

You want an honest discussion here? Brave!!

I'm not against border security. Not even a little bit. I'm for border security because there is an accountability to where we live and why we live there. I pay taxes to support the system in my neighborhood, and I think those who use the system should pay taxes into it where they are able also. I think much of the FUD used paints a bad picture of people who are upset at Trumps proposal to silence dissent. I am certain there are people who say "open borders for all!" but I do not consider that a mainstream view.

Trump likes the wall because it gets his base riled up. It keeps changing, and adjusting, and he doesn't care what it actually is. 200 miles? 2 miles? who cares. He just wants to speak in front of "a wall" and claim victory. That's not what is ultimately best for our nation. Not a bit. We still have not addressed asylum overloads, or dreamers, or any other significant (and difficult) immigration issues. He just wants a press kit picture for 2020. We should not fall for such showmanship.

I did address comprehensive immigration reform.

Yet I forgot an important point you brought up in my OP.

The idea that Democrats are for open borders is one of the dumbest things that gets said. Illegals crossing the border have declined steadily with increased border protection over the past several years. From over 1,000,000 per year before Obama took office to around 500,000 last year. Obama deported more illegals than any other president.

It's just some stupid rallying cry of the right that means nothing and is pointless. Their methods are different but the goal is the same.

I'll take the 'immoral' argument completely out of it, and still have zero reason to support a wall.

why? because it will not work. Too many people love to look at the small things instead of looking at the big picture: how much will the wall cost in its entirety?

Thats whats so frustrating about this discussion, is the simple short sightedness of it all. Does anybody actually know how much the entire wall will cost? so focused on the 5 billion for just this year, that not enough people are asking for the total cost.

that's like uneducated buyers who come into the dealership asking about the monthly payment instead of the total cost of the vehicle.

i've heard everything from 25 billon to 40 billion. and knowing how the government typically operates, that means the total cost for just the construction of a wall will cost well past 50 bill.

and yet, that still doesn't cover the cost to repair/maintain the wall. that doesn't cover the cost of the surveillance equipment it will take to actually secure the wall. that doesn't cover the cost of the training required for personnel to operate said equipment. that doesn't cover the cost drones and all detection methods to prevent people from easily tunneling over the border.

what else does that also not cover that nobody here has been talking about?

that doesn't cover the cost required if the government actually convince citizens to sell their private property to the government. if they don't agree, then it also doesn't cover the cost of the endless Eminent Domain lawsuits coming the federal government's way. That doesn't cover the cost to relocate the americans who currently reside around the border , because they currently reside on the 'mexican' side:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/border-wall-could-leave-some-americans-mexican-side-n747141

which also means it's gonna be hard to cover the cost to said americans who make their living around the border.

So who knows the total cost of this damn wall. it could end up costing us so much it wouldn't even be worth it anymore.

then on top of that, the pro-wall people honestly think i should be support something that will cost 50 billion + for something that MIGHT work half the time?

think about that. 50 billion + for a wall that MIGHT only solve half the problem. because almost half of the illegal immigrants living in this country came through by legal means, and overstayed their visas/passports. a wall isn't gonna solve that problem.

i support border security. the obama administration deported more illegal immigrants than any other administration, border crossing were down, and he didn't need a 50 billion dollar wall to accomplish it.

why can't Trump accomplish the same thing? is he inadequate?

we need immigration reform. we need innovative border security methods. i'm all for it.

but im not for a wall that won't work.

I still say if we can stop 30% of the drugs crossing our borders and can stop 30% of the illegals crossing our border it's well worth it. I don't have a problem with those who disagree. But in the long run I see it paying for itself.

the only way to stop 30% of the drugs come over from mexico is to stop 30% of the demand coming from American citizens.

good luck with that.

jc

What is to stop people from going around the wall?

I know you addressed immigration reform, I was just repeating it because I felt it beared repeating.

So simple, yet so complicated. I don’t care who pays for it, $5b is of absolutely no consequence to me at the end of the day. I certainly can recognize Trumps lie’s while admitting to myself that I really never cared about Mexico paying for it. I don’t care if we foot the bill, even if Trump is only partly correct and they pay a fraction it’s a huge win.

The only National crisis is on the other side of the border we are discussing. THAT is a national crisis over there in Mexico and while I definitely feel like the neighbor with a 6 bedroom shelter who won’t let anyone in when it’s just me, I don’t view illegal citizens as something I’m willing to just give up on and accept. The government’s job is to protect its citizens and if there is even a little bit of violent crime coming from the border and they can stop it, they should. We shouldn’t not do what’s in our citizen’s best interest because Mexico has had a corrupt government for 100 years.

Just about every single one of the Democratic leaders has been pro wall at some point VERY recent. Too recent to now do a 180 and suddenly it’s immoral and against everything they stand for. Obama, Bush, Clinton all of the most recent presidents have all said the same thing “securing the border”. Now, the one they don’t like is actually doing something about it and it’s such a travesty. Want to point out that he keeps changing it, fine, I never cared about what it actually looked like to begin with, I just want something done.

I am in favor of a wall, a wall will make it much easier for border patrol to do their jobs. I don’t care what it’s made out of, I don’t care what it looks like. Steel slats, ok, Concrete, whatever.

We also have so much drug activity along the canadian border. we don't know how much drugs actually cross because, well, the border is far longer than our border with mexico, and there's way more opportunities to come through the country illegally without getting caught.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/17/us/northern-border-illicit-crossing.html

there are multiple articles on this. i just posted one of them.

Well that depends a lot on how much of it that is planned to be built. It seems we have no idea. Right now we're told it's 5.7 billion for 215 miles of wall, actually fence.

Does he plan to build a wall along the entire border? Part of the border? We have no idea. Just people yelling build it and don't build it.

I mean, how hard is it to go to baja or the gulf side of mexico and get in a boat and float around the wall?

Is the coast guard going to be on permanent duty there?

The more difficult you make it the less people will do it. I'm not sure Paco in his village mid country is going to build a boat.

Obtaining a boat and navigating it is far far more difficult than walking across an imaginary line. I think you are over estimating the education and wherewithal of these people.

The cubans dont really have a problem doing it...

I'm going to shock everyone right now, I say build the wall and build it as big and expensive as the right wants.

Although I think a wall will be useless for illegal immigration there are other more important reasons to build it.

Reason 1: The left should leverage the wall to get DACA and DAPA resolved as well as sweeping immigration reforms that are truly bipartisan. Putting an end to the criminal behavior of separating families and housing children in concentration camps is well worth the price alone.

Reason 2: Everyone has a right to feel safe in their homes. When my kids were little I bought them flashlights to sleep with, checked under their beds and in their closets 100s of times; all to make them feel safe and not scared. This is that for scared bigots with a vote.

If this is done right, the left can use it to do a lot of good and to shame/silence the bigotry that has run rampant since Trump hit the scene.

Reason 3: As long as you make it look like a consolation prize and not a win for Trump by getting lots of good things done; you will help to heal the divide and put a 2020+ GOP campaign issue to bed now and forever.

BUT just building the wall, caving in to Trump's childish behavior and demands, or not getting much greater value for the lefts' agenda is a BIG FAT NO to the wall, period.

You don't even need to get to open water ... "The Wall" isn't a continuous preventative barrier intended for 1954 miles of the border ..... it is for a portion of the border. Those intent on illegal crossing will simply find a different location to cross ..... and of course, that's making the huge and incorrect assumption that a wall will stop the crossings.

$5 Billion to build something that won't work ... no wonder Trump's all for it.

Naivety at it's finest.

Yep you are right. You can't shame those people.

It's two pronged - you can't shame Trump or his base. And the Dems have historically been inept at trying to mix it up with a bully like Trump.

Give me a drone and a kilo and I'll deliver the kilo over the wall whenever I want to.

Walls create a prison to those who build them.

what if Mexico builds steps on their side of the wall?

A wall/fence should only exist where traditional surveillance and patrols are not possible or to intermittent to be effective.

A wall should perform several functions.
1) slow down border crossing (impossible to stop it completely)
2) provide patrol a method of seeing through or over the wall.

Personally I think placing infrared and motion cameras that alert patrols, and using drones would be more effective.

Why not dig our own "Panama Canal" so it can be used as resource and as a border?

They'll have calves the size of watermelons when they get here.
And 30 ft ropes.

[Steve King shoutout]

Nobody could possibly know at this point. As you pointed out, there have been many ideas thrown around that there is actually no way to know today.



So many things have been said. Pacific to Gulf has been mentioned but that doesn't actually seem possible with some of the terrain along the border. Also, we will have a hell of a time trying to get the land from the locals down there. There are already rumblings of a fight for land to build on.

That Pacific to Gulf was reduced at one point to some pin pointed areas. I'm not honestly sure where they are. This is part of the deception thing.



Oh brother, the lies and deception surrounding the need for a wall is astounding. What is the truth. Trump says one thing, stats say something else, border security had a website up that disagrees with Trump then not long ago, it came down for no reason that I can tell.

In my eyes, this is what needs to be verified before we talk about any budget for the wall. To make an intelligent decision, we gotta know and understand the real threat.



Misinformation may be coming from both sides on this. Kinda goes back to we need to know and understand the threat before jumping all in.

If it's true that only 6 came in, then yeah, spending upwards of $30 billion is dumb. I question that amount but still, it's the data we have to work with.



Again, I go back to verifying the extent of the threat. I can't in all honesty look and listen to what Trump tells me the threat is, he's so prone to lying or exaggerating the facts that I think his words should be tossed out completely.

Having said that, if it's as he says, then a problem exists and needs to be addressed. And maybe a wall is the answer. But I just can't tell without facts.



Honestly, I'm not sure I trust Congress enough to think they'll come up with something that is totally workable.

But yeah, we need a plan in place and implemented. But again, FIRST, we gotta know the truth about the level of the problem..

The simple fact that Trump turned down $20 billion last year for the Wall while it was attached to DACA tells me that he's listening to some bad actors within his inner circle. And to me it seems more racist than it ever should be from a POTUS.

I remember him sitting in the cabinet room, telling those in attendance to bring him something and he'll sign it... Then he wouldn't. For my money, this is all about pandering to his base and has no real basis in fact.

Thus my reason to not believe a word he says.

(quote]
Why I (you) Support a Wall[/quote] had to adjust it.. sorry

I am absolutely sure that we could use more barriers of some sort. Certain of it. What I'm not certain of is where those walls need to be.

But this whole thing about wanting a wall, making up fake stories of why we need a wall, this all will come back to haunt us.

This is 100% political BS in my view.

If Trump shows me the exact wall, Exact Location, Exact Cost (or estimates)and verify the need in those locations, I could be convinced. I'm open to it.

One thing I'm absolutely sure of, Both parties have the best interest of border security in their hearts. All this name calling by a child in the white house will not help.

His arrogance is enough to choke a horse... His lies leave me exhausted because I feel compelled to fact check everything the man says.

Turning Right against Left and Left against Right will not get this done.

The only way to do this is with bipartisan support and Trump has all but made that impossible.

As for Drugs entering the country, Thus far, the reports that the drugs are mostly coming in through normal ports of entry between countries, through tunnels, via submarine, via plane and via boat going to ports in other locations like New Orleans (using fishing vessels and such)as an example. How does a wall help that.

So, again, what needs to be done is search out the Truth.. The truth will tell us where we need to focus our attention and $$$.

Trump wants us to blindly give him $5.7 Billion with out saying specifically what he intends to spend it on. I'd never do that. I would do that for any president. Not even one I liked.. I'd not give that even a thought..

And I certainly wouldn't provide that money without bipartisan oversight.

Especially when dealing with a guy like Trump. But again, even if I liked him, I'd still not do it without bipartisan oversight.

He thinks it's always US vs THEM. It doesn't have to be, it just has to be truth and honesty. Something this president wouldn't know anything about if it smacked him in the face.

It is actually easier to build a 2000 mile wall than it is to fix immigration / visa.

There would be the 70 percent solution, not the 30 percent one that Pit mentioned.

"And I certainly wouldn't provide that money without bipartisan oversight."

How can that happen when Nancy won't meet with the President to discuss the issue?

How are people not furious that Bush, Clinton and Obama told us of the problem...and did nothing? How can anyone take Chuck and Nancy seriously when they BOTH are on record as stating that there is a huge problem and after they voted for a barrier that never happened?

Now...Trump is a monster for actually doing what he said he would do...and what Clinton, Obama, Nancy and Chuck ALL agreed needed to be addressed. Oh yeah...that's right...I forgot...he's a lying racist and now Russian agent.

Hammer out a deal and create a solution. That evil vile Trump guy is sitting behind his desk waiting for someone to hammer out a deal...something more tangible than Nancy's pledge for $1.

Build a barrier...develop a process to monitor and control areas with and without a barrier...address the opioid epidemic...address the DACA issue...fix the visa and chain-migration issue. It's their darned job and has got nothing but lip service until now. The resistance is not about the issue and is all about stopping Trump...even when he's trying to do what the resistance is on record as wanting. It's ridiculous.

Nancy has met with him each time he's asked her too...you are thinking of the other day when Trump asked some new young Democrats to come to the White House to ostensibly discuss the Budget and Wall etc. They all rejected his invitation for exactly what it was, an attempt to intimidate some young/new congressmen.

When Nancy and Chuck agreed that there was a problem, there was a probem.. did you notice that immigration is at a 46 year low? Did you not get the memo? It's been on all the networks including Fox.

You can't hammer out a deal with a child in the white house. He tells his boys what he'll agree to, they provide it, his minions on Fox and Lush Rimbaugh tell him not to do it, and then, like a child he backs off.

You can't make a deal with a liar

As I said, I'm ok with building a barrier/wall/fence, whatever you wanna call it, if I knew what the real truth was. I could be convinced. But you will never convince me it's needed until you tell me the truth.

Trumps own admin has departments which tell a different story than the Liar in Chief. Who's telling the truth.

I think the reason you can't get the truth out of trump is because if that were to happen, it would be clear that his request is dumber than a box of rocks.

And if you think $5.6 Billion is the end, think again, that's just the start.

And don't forget, he turned down $20 billion for a wall or whatever just last year, when DACA was attached to it.

He's a racist of the highest order.. He's Hitler in a $10,000 suit and monster long tie.

Ok. So you don't believe what Trump is saying about the Wall/barrier and you need more proof that it is necessary. Fair enough. (Even tho Chuck and Nancy previously voted for a barrier.)

Nancy offered up $1. I'd call that the opposite of bargaining in good faith. I don't hear Nancy or Chuck saying they are willing to negotiate. It's their way or no way. Trump says he's willing to make a deal. Who is the problem here?

Again...I can't understand why people are not absolutely furious that Chuck and Nancy are pulling this stunt. They are on record as voting for a barrier. What changed? Their play is simply to deny Trump...not to do the peoples' work.

As far as the "Crisis" ... totally false narrative.

https://www.npr.org/2018/06/22/622246815/unauthorized-immigration-in-three-graphs

I don't put any stock in Politifact. I appreciate the effort...but they are no different than any other opinion website. IMO

My issue is that there is no negotiating going on...with one side not willing to engage in a serious conversation. It's their job to reach some accord. Three past Presidents have told us publicly that there is a problem...no one did anything substantial to correct the problem.

Now it's miraculously no longer a problem?

So when the next POTUS is in power - and wants free education for all and to put in place significant gun control legislation ... it is the job of the GOP to negotiate with them.

OK. I don't think that is likely to happen ... and putting such expectations on either party is wrong IMO ... just my take but I think Trump is making this an issue when it does not need to be one. This is on Trump 90%.

How can I believe what Trump says.. I mean, the idiot lies like every day.

And again, when did Nancy and Chuck vote for a wall?

Nancy didn't offer up $1. She was asked a question by a reporter, what dollar would you offer up, she made a joke out of it and said yeah, $1. Try taking things in context.

Nancy and Chuck have gone to the white house several times to attempt to get a deal, they actually thought they had a deal few times only to have Trump backed out at the last second. That's the kinda thing he was known for doing in business and I guess it works there where he has total control of the purse strings, it doesn't work that way in government. Never has, never will.

Don't tell me that Trump wants a deal, if he did, he could have it any time.

Don't tell me that McConnell wants anything other than what Trump allows him to have, he can end this by allowing a vote. I forget the number of senators he needs for a veto override, but I bet he'd have them.

So don't go down the road telling me this is on the Dems.. They've tried... Trump keeps moving the goal posts..

Trump was once quoted as saying, if there is a shutdown, it's on the President. This time, he said he'd take the mantel on the shutdown.. now the twinky in the white house is saying it's all on the Dems.. It was NEVER on the dems.

Republicans had 2 years with complete control of Congress and the White House. They could have done this a long time ago... They didn't.

Put blame where it belongs... directly on Trump and McConnell.. I don't even blame the republican Senate, they aren't being given an opportunity to vote to fix it thanks to the Turtle.

You keep saying that Chuck and Nancy voted for the wall.... Not so fast.

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter...-wall-position/

Oh,, I just noticed that someone else pointed this out to you, and you blew it off as being strictly opinion. oh well.

So can you tell us how the vote on 700 miles of fencing in 2006 was booed by Trump as a waste of time but I guess now it's ok..

There are so many holes in the argument that "first they wanted the wall and now they don't" that it's not even funny anymore..

If the next President is elected with a campaign promise for free education and gun control legislation then the entire Congress and Senate should consider the measures. That would be what the people voted for. You've presented a hypothetical.

Trump was elected President and his campaign included a wall. That would be what the people voted for. This is a reality.

I believe Politifact as much as you'd believe Fox News. I actually read and research BOTH sources.

It would appear that Trump campaigned that the border needs a better barrier - one would therefore assume that he believes the 2006 wall was not sufficient. It is reasonable that the needs may be different today than they were 13 years ago.

It appears that you don't think there is an issue at the southern border. As I've researched the issue, I believe that there IS an issue at the southern border. I was hoping there would be some good debate about whether there is truly an issue. Oh well.

I learn more from this than I do Politifact:

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/gen-anth...egal-immigrants

Well in the hypothetical I posed - the GOP would simply never discuss it. Period. Ever.

In Trump's case ... he voted for a zero cost wall. Mexico will pay for the wall. So there is no need to shut down the government to get payment for the wall which MX is paying for.

Ummm - that article is "shallow" at best.

The Wall won't work any better than the drones and other high tech stuff.

The article takes a absolute - "Technology can't stop all the crossings" ... but neither will a Wall - so the two are equally inadequate for providing an absolute answer.