DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Assess Duke's pass pro

I just got access to a Facebook group that is supposedly dedicated to the Browns draft. Some of those guys are suggesting that Duke is a liability in pass protection. They are saying we should trade him and pick up some other guy, Kavontae Turpin. That part is absurd and maybe that absurdity is spilling over into their evaluation of his blocking. Maybe I'm biased.

Of course, Duke doesn't pancake guys but he makes good decisions on who to pick up on blitzes and is not routinely defeated when called on. I realize he's a smaller guy but I don't think he's a glaring liability in pass protection.

Curious how Dawg Talker judge Duke Johnson in pass protection? Agree with me or not, I want to know what you guys think.

Duke's a great pass protector for someone who is 5'9 220 lbs. He's always making the right decision, but sometimes he can get steamrolled. Hoping Chubb can get better in his pass protection and catching. We need to get Duke out in the slot.

I agree. He has "want to" and more often than not Duke succeeds. Yes, Chubb has to get better in pass pro and I think he will. I think Chubb only needs reps as a pass catcher he has the ability.

I agree. I think both of these dudes have a lot of fight in them. It dawned on me after Chubb had that three carry game that he's in the perfect position learning from Duke and a bit from Hyde.

I only judge you for joining a Facespace group for that stuff... the real knowledge is here.

Most backs are a liability in pass protection. For me, thats not that important. If Duke is on the field, he shouldn't be blocking, he should be out there receiving.

I do think that he is in a tough position if he ever wants to step from under the shadow of being a 3rd down back. I'm not very confident that Kitchens is going to commit to Duke, and necessarily try to force him the ball like Hue did. Especially with having Chubb, who proved he can catch out the backfield too.

Just a few stats:
2018, Duke had 0 rushing TDs. 2017 he had 4 rushing TDs.
2018, Duke had 47 receptions on 62 targets. 2017, he had 74 receptions on 93 targets.

I want Kitchens to use Duke more by using more 2 back formations on passing downs. Give Baker more options out of the backfield. Need to use him more like Kamara or Melvin Gordon in the pass game, and set him up to succeed against LB coverage. 1 on 1 coverage, Duke can't be stopped.

Until we use him more, we'll always undervalue him.

LOL, I had that coming. That's why I brought my question here. I've been on the board for about 11 years. I know DawgTalkers are the real deal.

He should be used more like Dion Lewis was used when he has in NE. I think the collaborative style of Kitchens will lend itself to a more creative deployment of Duke in the offense. The beauty of his skillset is that SOMETIMES he can run it even inside and be productive.

In 2017 we had limited weapons. Our 2nd and 3rd receivers were Njoku and DeValve, with 33 and 32 catches. Next was Corwell with 28. Higgins and Ricardo Louis were tied with 27 catches each.

We had little on the outside. Coleman, Britt, Gordon, louis, Williams, Coates, and Leslie ..... none provided much of anything.

In 2018, Duke was the 3rd receiver on the team. He wasn't forgotten. He was behind Landry and Njoku. Callaway, Higgins, and Chubb were next were next.

Baker spreads the ball around a lot. It's not slighting Duke.

I have joined FB groups for fans of both the Browns and OSU. It is highly entertaining to read the sheer idiocy and blindness of those people. Between these groups and the last election, FB has entertainment value out the wazoo.

I was given a 1 week ban on an OSU fan group for stating that OSU did not deserve to be in the playoffs this year because they were pasted by a very average Purdue team. I was given the week off to reflect on whether or not I am a true Buckeye fan.

I joined the group because it was supposed to dedicated to discussing the draft. On DawgTalkers, and this is not a criticism, it doesn't seem like its quite draft season yet. We're still sorting out all of the coaching hires, whether or not Baker will get ROY, etc.

I admit the lightbulbs are dim over there.

To me these stats tell a lot of the story. When duke comes into the game it's almost a dead giveaway he will be used as a receiver. Now if we look at the RB situation that may change depending on the off season moves.

When Hyde was here we had a three headed monster at the RB position. Hyde, Chubb and Duke. In New England they consider that a positive. Once Hyde left that changed. But it seems no matter the coach, no matter the system, every regime that's been here since Duke was drafted in 2015 hasn't really seen him as a major component. Which is why it was puzzling to see the contract he was offered and signed.

At this point I think Chubb is already the better blocker and as much as fans hate to admit it, there's something about Duke that everyone since 2015 sees in him, or doesn't see in him as the case may be, that causes his playing time to be limited.

I simply don't believe it's coincidence that every coach who's been here has come to the same conclusion on him, even Freddie to this point.

What's the name of the draft group?

Cleveland Browns Draft Talk.

J/C
Several posters have made observations about his general role in the offense. I have no problem with getting that along with the specific evaluation I was seeking from my question about his pass pro.

All good stuff. I must say in terms of his overall role in the Browns offense he's been misused and underused so far in his career. I don't put that on him. I think he is an above average RB/WR, whatever, whose full toolkit has not been taken advantage of. In part that has been constrained by the lack of talent at the QB position and the fact that other offensive pieces have been lackluster until recently. He is a complementary player he is not a feature back. Even with that, there has been a significant absence of offensive creativity that has made him seem pedestrian. I think we now have a chance to see him deployed in a way that will elevate his production.

I see a lot of posters stuck on this concept of him being underused. But I must ask again, is it your contention that every coach that's been here from 2015 on is simply missing something? And that would include Freddie the last half of the 2018 season. Or do you think it could just be the fans overvaluing one of our players.

I just can't believe that every coach that's been here sees one thing and we see something else.

2 3 years ago Duke got alot of targets cause lets be honest the offense had nothing going for it.
Kessler and Kizer were the kings of checkdown.alas Duke gets alot of targets but very few scores.
now in 2019 hes been passed up in the terms of talent on the offense..hes not the man anymore.
Perriman Njoku and Calloway have progressed.
Duke is a tweener. hes fast thats about it.
hes not quick he cant make guys miss in space

My purpose is not to convince you of my judgment of Duke. That seems futile, not just with you but on the board in general. People become invested, including me, in the way they see things, so be it.

With that out of the way, here's my response. Simply because a set of circumstances conspires to blunt a player's progress or production doesn't necessarily mean the players talent or lack of talent is the root cause. In 2015 we had JFF and then McGown as the QBs. We often played from behind which affected the balance of the offense. As I recall we also forced fed the ball to Crowell.

In 2016 we had a combination of Griffin, Kessler, and McGown at the QB position with Jackson as the defacto OC. We won a single game and found no answers for consistent offensive production. A complimentary running back (Duke) would not solve that problem. I would characterize his usage that season in this way. When all of the other offensive options were exhausted on a game-by-game basis, then we would go to Duke. He is not a savior, he is a complementary piece for a varied offense that can execute. We didn't have that in a 1-15 season.

Then in 2017, we go 0 for 16. We had #7 who was usually on the verge of collapse in all of his starts. We continue to feed Crowell the rock. Its still Jackson's offense and he still remains predictable. Again, when things look dismal and some gesture of change was needed, that's when we saw Duke.

In 2018, Haley arrives. He is so inflexible and unimaginative he won't even play Chubb when he flashes. So there is virtually no hope that Duke will be viewed as an assett. When Kitchens take over the offense we start to see some imaginative integration of Johnson in the offense.

That's where we are.

It's not unlike how Peppers was slammed because he wasn't used properly. When that changed he looked like a valuable piece of the defense.

Not a big sample size from what I recall. He is primarily in there to receive not block.

My point was not to question Duke's talent. Actually if you look at his production, he was used more in 2017 than in 2018. Constant pressure requires an outlet man and he was used that way. It seems that Hue used his skill set more often and better than Haley. Whether that was by design or necessity I can't say.

My only point, and actual question is what has every HC and OC seen in Duke that cause them not to use him more? I don't have that answer but surely it must mean they see and know something we don't.

I think he is very good at it, getting on the right guy and standing him up. He is not afraid to stick his nose in and tries. At his size, he is not probably first choice for being a blitz killer, but he has guts. When we have people holding the ball too long or allowing multiple guys in, he can only do so much, and I think he usually stands his ground. Delaying getting the ball out can make every blocker look bad. I think he is fine, and it is smarter to use him outside to catch balls in the open.

Chubb has the build we want for this more.

First time I've ever seen someone say this about Duke.

All I know is that when called upon, Duke does his job.