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https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/28/technology/iphones-apple-china-made.htmlA Tiny Screw Shows Why iPhones Won’t Be ‘Assembled in U.S.A.’SAN FRANCISCO — Despite a trade war between the United States and China and past admonishments from President Trump “to start building their damn computers and things in this country,” Apple is unlikely to bring its manufacturing closer to home. A tiny screw illustrates why. In 2012, Apple’s chief executive, Timothy D. Cook, went on prime-time television to announce that Apple would make a Mac computer in the United States. It would be the first Apple product in years to be manufactured by American workers, and the top-of-the-line Mac Pro would come with an unusual inscription: “Assembled in USA.” But when Apple began making the $3,000 computer in Austin, Tex., it struggled to find enough screws, according to three people who worked on the project and spoke on the condition of anonymity because of confidentiality agreements. In China, Apple relied on factories that can produce vast quantities of custom screws on short notice. In Texas, where they say everything is bigger, it turned out the screw suppliers were not. [Apple disabled the iPhone’s Group FaceTime feature to fix a bug that made eavesdropping possible.] Tests of new versions of the computer were hamstrung because a 20-employee machine shop that Apple’s manufacturing contractor was relying on could produce at most 1,000 screws a day. The screw shortage was one of several problems that postponed sales of the computer for months, the people who worked on the project said. By the time the computer was ready for mass production, Apple had ordered screws from China. The challenges in Texas illustrate problems that Apple would face if it tried to move a significant amount of manufacturing out of China. Apple has found that no country — and certainly not the United States — can match China’s combination of scale, skills, infrastructure and cost. Timothy D. Cook, Apple’s chief executive, helped lead the company’s shift to foreign manufacturing in 2004.CreditErica Yoon for The New York Times Image Timothy D. Cook, Apple’s chief executive, helped lead the company’s shift to foreign manufacturing in 2004.CreditErica Yoon for The New York Times [Apple computers were once made in Silicon Valley. It did not go well.] In China, you will also find one of Apple’s most important markets, and over the last month the risks that come with that dependence have become apparent. On Jan. 2, Apple said it would miss earnings expectations for the first time in 16 years, mostly because of slowing iPhone sales in China. On Tuesday, the company is expected to reveal more details about its financial results for the most recent quarter and its forecast for the coming year. The company could face more financial pressure if the Trump administration places tariffs on phones made in China — something the president has threatened to do. Apple has intensified a search for ways to diversify its supply chain, but that hunt has homed in on India and Vietnam, according to an Apple executive who asked not to be named because the executive was not authorized to speak publicly. The company’s executives are increasingly worried that its heavy dependence on China for manufacturing is risky amid the country’s rising political tensions with the United States and unpredictability, this person said. “The skill here is just incredible,” Mr. Cook said at a conference in China in late 2017. Making Apple products requires state-of-the-art machines and lots of people who know how to run them, he said. “In the U.S., you could have a meeting of tooling engineers and I’m not sure we could fill the room,” he said. “In China, you could fill multiple football fields.” Kristin Huguet, an Apple spokeswoman, said the company was “an engine of economic growth in the United States” that spent $60 billion last year with 9,000 American suppliers, helping to support 450,000 jobs. Apple’s Texas manufacturer, Flextronics, did not respond to requests for comment. Mr. Cook helped lead Apple’s shift to foreign manufacturing in 2004, a move that cut costs and provided the enormous scale necessary to produce some of history’s best-selling tech products. Apple contracted much of the work to enormous factories in China, some stretching miles and employing hundreds of thousands of people who assemble, test and package Apple products. That assembly includes parts made around the world — from Norway to the Philippines to Pocatello, Idaho — that are shipped to China. Editors’ Picks In 12 Minutes, Everything Went Wrong The People of Mbomo Tell Their Stories Forget the Suburbs, It’s Country or Bust The final assembly is the most labor-intensive part of building the iPhone, and its location often determines a product’s country of origin for tariffs.CreditKarly Domb Sadof/Associated Press Image The final assembly is the most labor-intensive part of building the iPhone, and its location often determines a product’s country of origin for tariffs.CreditKarly Domb Sadof/Associated Press The final assembly is the most labor-intensive part of building the iPhone, and its location often determines a product’s country of origin for tariffs. Mr. Cook often bristles at the notion that iPhones are Chinese-made. Apple points out that Corning, at a factory in Kentucky, makes many iPhone screens and that a company in Allen, Tex., makes laser technology for the iPhones’ facial-recognition system. Mr. Cook has also disputed that cheap labor is the reason Apple is still in China. But it doesn’t hurt. The minimum wage in Zhengzhou, China, home of the world’s biggest iPhone factory, is roughly $2.10 an hour, including benefits. Apple said the starting pay for workers assembling its products there was about $3.15 an hour. Compensation for similar jobs in the United States is significantly higher. While it was one of Apple’s most powerful computers, the American-made Mac Pro also turned out to be one of its most expensive. Chinese suppliers shipped their components to Texas. But in some cases, the Texas team needed new parts as designs changed, and engineers who were tasked with designing the computer found themselves calling machine shops in central Texas. That is how they found Stephen Melo, the owner and president of Caldwell Manufacturing in Lockhart. Employees of Flextronics, the company hired by Apple to build the computers, in turn hired Caldwell to make 28,000 screws — though they would have liked more. When Mr. Melo bought Caldwell in 2002, it was capable of the high-volume production Apple needed. But demand for that had dried up as manufacturing moved to China. He said he had replaced the old stamping presses that could mass-produce screws with machines designed for more precise, specialized jobs. Mr. Melo thought it was ironic that Apple, a leader in offshore manufacturing, had come calling with a big order. “It’s hard to invest for that in the U.S. because that stuff is purchased very cheaply overseas,” he said. Workers heading to a Foxconn factory dedicated to iPhones in Zhengzhou, China, in 2015. Such factories can employ hundreds of thousands of people who assemble, test and package Apple products.CreditGilles Sabrie for The New York Times Image Workers heading to a Foxconn factory dedicated to iPhones in Zhengzhou, China, in 2015. Such factories can employ hundreds of thousands of people who assemble, test and package Apple products.CreditGilles Sabrie for The New York Times He made do with his new machines, although he could not make the exact screws Apple wanted. His company delivered 28,000 screws over 22 trips. Mr. Melo often made the one-hour drive himself in his Lexus sedan. A former Apple manager who spoke on the condition of anonymity said the Flextronics team had also been far smaller than what he typically found on similar Apple projects in China. It was unclear exactly why the project was understaffed, the manager said, speculating that it was because American workers were more expensive. The manager said similar Apple jobs in China would include a roomful of people working to ensure that all materials were in place for production. In Texas, it was one worker, who often seemed overwhelmed, the manager said. As a result, materials were regularly out of place or late, contributing to delays. Another frustration with manufacturing in Texas: American workers won’t work around the clock. Chinese factories have shifts working at all hours, if necessary, and workers are sometimes even roused from their sleep to meet production goals. That was not an option in Texas. “China is not just cheap. It’s a place where, because it’s an authoritarian government, you can marshal 100,000 people to work all night for you,” said Susan Helper, an economics professor at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland and the former chief economist at the Commerce Department. “That has become an essential part of the product-rollout strategy.” Ms. Helper said Apple could make more products in the United States if it invested significant time and money and relied more on robotics and specialized engineers instead of large numbers of low-wage line workers. She said government and industry would also need to improve job training and promote the development of a supply-chain infrastructure. But, she added, there is a low chance of all that happening. Apple still assembles Mac Pros at the factory on the outskirts of Austin, in part because it has already invested in complicated and custom machines. But the Mac Pro has been a slow seller, and Apple has not updated it since its introduction in 2013. In December, Apple announced that it would add up to 15,000 workers in Austin, just miles from the Mac Pro plant. None of the new jobs are expected to be in manufacturing.
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Sound like someone didn't do their homework on suppliers before they started production. How do you not see this coming if need 2000 screws a day to meet your production demand, but the vendor you hire can only produce 1000.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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The part that should stand out to you is:
The challenges in Texas illustrate problems that Apple would face if it tried to move a significant amount of manufacturing out of China. Apple has found that no country — and certainly not the United States — can match China’s combination of scale, skills, infrastructure and cost.
“The skill here is just incredible,” Mr. Cook said at a conference in China in late 2017. Making Apple products requires state-of-the-art machines and lots of people who know how to run them, he said.
“In the U.S., you could have a meeting of tooling engineers and I’m not sure we could fill the room,” he said. “In China, you could fill multiple football fields.”
While the United States get dumber and dumber, the Chinese get smarter and smarter, they are producing engineers. They have manufacturing capabilities we could only dream of.
In 10 years they WILL be the top Super Power in the world simply because they will be able to mass out produce everyone in the world(they already out produce us)...you don't need the latest and great tech to win, we won WW2 with planes 4 generations behind the Germans and Japanese, we beat them by out producing them in mass scale, and thats exactly what China will do us militarily in the next few decades.
We have become a nation of consumers, China has become a nation of creators and producers..the Chinese ARE the sleeping dragon the US was in the 1940's...and just like USA was in the 1940's they are hungry and driven, we have sat on our laurels and gotten lazy.
In the USA if you fail out of school or college, or get pregnant and have a kid in high school, you get welfare and a health card..if you fail out of school or get a kid knocked up in China you starve to death...either you succeed in China or you starve...just like it was in the USA in the early 1900's which is why we grew to be so powerful, because we were driven and had to.
yup. bout sums it up.
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Yet people get mad when Dems push for higher education standards.
We’re dumb, and continue to get dumb by the year. But hey, the wall is what’s most important.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Yet people get mad when Dems push for higher education standards.
We’re dumb, and continue to get dumb by the year. But hey, the wall is what’s most important. Yer go'damn right it is. If it wasn't for the Mexicans coming over and taking our jobs and raping our women, we'd probably be able to make that computer twice as fast as those cheap chinamen
Wise words spoken by sages From SkyTel to BlackBerry pagers
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Not saying that isn't accurate,,, I wouldn't really know.
But this I do know, the reason no Iphone will be built here is cost.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
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I think it's a combination of both. People think they can find a savior in some politician whom they believe can start convincing the world they should be paying more for less.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Yet people get mad when Dems push for higher education standards. This has NOTHING to do with education standards.. (it also has nothing to do with the fact that Dems are doing NOTHING to try to increase them)... It has much more to do with the fact that a couple quick Google searches leads me to believe that the median salary for a machinist in China equates to about $16K/year... We think 16 year old kids working part-time at McDonalds should make more than that.. how in the hell are we going to get actual skilled professionals to work for that? We’re dumb, and continue to get dumb by the year. But hey, the wall is what’s most important. First, this problem has been going on for decades and has nothing to do with any wall.. Dems have done nothing to fix it when they had the chance.. and they have had many chances. They are much more concerned with getting rid of things like "Valedictorian" because seeing achievement celebrated makes other kids feel bad. And, I'll just add this, the majority of local school boards who actually have the most impact on education, are dominated by left leaning folks, especially in and around any urban area.
yebat' Putin
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I disagree. Dems try for higher standards while republicans stay wanting to do nothing and keep the income inequality worse.
We do a crap job of getting kids/students into fields that matter, and make it worse by refusing to address education cost while not doing anything to raise real standards in grade school.
Nothing you say right now will change the fact that we suck at math and science compared to other developed countries, and we need to change that.
Apple will use whatever excuse they can to justify having their products built in China. But the overall issue itself is still very valid: China seems to have way more qualified people in those type of fields than America does, regardless on how much they get paid compared to us.
I’ll deal with liberals worrying about valedictorians over you conservatives still whining about coal mines all day everyday. We won’t be seeing eye to eye on this issue.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Yet people get mad when Dems push for higher education standards. This has NOTHING to do with education standards.. (it also has nothing to do with the fact that Dems are doing NOTHING to try to increase them)... It has much more to do with the fact that a couple quick Google searches leads me to believe that the median salary for a machinist in China equates to about $16K/year... We think 16 year old kids working part-time at McDonalds should make more than that.. how in the hell are we going to get actual skilled professionals to work for that? I read this article when is came out in the NYT a couple of days ago and it's clear that China is better positioned for manufacturing jobs in large part due to workers making $2.10/hr or as Apple stated, $3.15/hr including benefits. Agreed, this particular example is not an education problem with the U.S.. It's quite clear in reading the article and pointed out in the article, this particular manufacturer was not equipped to produce the screw, unsurprisingly, given the amount of manufacturing that has moved overseas..... When Mr. Melo bought Caldwell in 2002, it was capable of the high-volume production Apple needed. But demand for that had dried up as manufacturing moved to China. He said he had replaced the old stamping presses that could mass-produce screws with machines designed for more precise, specialized jobs.
Mr. Melo thought it was ironic that Apple, a leader in offshore manufacturing, had come calling with a big order. “It’s hard to invest for that in the U.S. because that stuff is purchased very cheaply overseas,” he said.
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I believe you are neglecting to consider the fact that it's the GOP who advocates transferring funds from public education in the form of vouchers to charter schools and other private schools in order to drain resources from public education. That many GOP ran states have gutted a lot of funding away from public education.
While you may be right that neither party has a true plan to fix public education, it's not hard to see which party continually undermines it.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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On a somewhat related note with regards to the costs of labor in the U.S., Foxconn is backtracking on a deal to build a manufacturing plant in Wisconsin after having stated it would built a $10B facility and add 13,000 manufacturing jobs. From today's article in the NYT.... The statement followed a Reuters report quoting Louis Woo, a special assistant to Foxconn’s chairman, Terry Gou, as saying that the costs of manufacturing screens for televisions and other consumer products are too high in the United States.
“In terms of TV, we have no place in the U.S.,” Mr. Woo told Reuters. “We can’t compete.”
Foxconn is a supplier to Apple and other tech giants. It was lured to Wisconsin in 2017 after former Gov. Scott Walker and state lawmakers agreed to more than $4 billion in tax credits and other inducements over a 15-year period. Those subsidies amounted to $15,000 to $19,000 per job annually, for a plant that the company said would employ as many as 13,000 workers in Mount Pleasant, near Racine.
The prospective shift by Foxconn was met with dismay. “This news is devastating for the taxpayers of Wisconsin,” said Assemblyman Gordon Hintz, the Democratic minority leader. “We were promised manufacturing jobs. We were promised state-of-the-art LCD production. We were promised a game-changing economic opportunity for our state.” https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/30/busin...pgtype=Homepage
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I believe you are neglecting to consider the fact that it's the GOP who advocates transferring funds from public education in the form of vouchers to charter schools and other private schools in order to drain resources from public education. That many GOP ran states have gutted a lot of funding away from public education. I believe you are neglecting to consider that the United States spends on average, $12,000 per pupil per year (the absolute worst state in the US for spending is Utah, which spends almost $7,000 per pupil per year).... while China spends less than $2,500 per pupil per year... If you think the US's poor results are a direct result of inadequate investment or diverting funds to charter schools, you are barking up the wrong tree.
yebat' Putin
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So how exactly is draining public education of funding being helpful in any way?
China spends far less on teachers, books, electronics ans supplies than the U.S.
It's funny how the same people that can explain to you that China pays much less, makes and does things far cheaper than we here in the U.S. does, then think it's a fair comparison to measure the cost of education there, to here.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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It’s absolutely inadequate investing if it’s not being used properly.
I mean damn dude this is basic common sense here. Using your own analogy in the other thread that you have yet to respond back to, you can invest into an exterminator and their plan all you want, but if you don’t invest into the RIGHT exterminator with the right plan, then you’re just throwing money away because the funds aren’t being used correctly.
How old are you again? Good god this is basic right here.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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We won’t be seeing eye to eye on this issue. That doesn't mean we can't discuss it like adults... who knows, maybe somebody's opinion will be swayed just a little bit. I disagree. Dems try for higher standards while republicans stay wanting to do nothing and keep the income inequality worse. Maybe if you told me what you mean by "higher standards" and/or what some of those standards are, I could better understand. We do a crap job of getting kids/students into fields that matter, and make it worse by refusing to address education cost while not doing anything to raise real standards in grade school. We do a crap job on a lot of things.. literally, it's a huge list... but let me start here... We do a crap job of getting kids EXCITED about education (or the future in general).. they don't see the point. Look at the narrative that every kid 12-18 who is paying attention gets every day... your education system sucks, college is so expensive what's the point, there are no jobs with decent pay, if you get sick you are probably going to die or go broke because healthcare is so bad, what decent jobs there are are being taken over by machines or Mexicans, races hate each other, genders hate each other, nobody trusts the government but is still hellbent on getting "their guy" elected, corporations are all out for themselves and will screw me the first chance they get... Seriously, they hear everyday on the news, in their community, probably from their parents, how effed up the public schools are... then we tell them to go to their effed up public school and give it their all so they can be successful.. it's a COMPLETELY contradictory message.. and they get it.
yebat' Putin
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The problem is that most of that message they're receiving is true.
The best way to motivate them is to tell them that through education they can help change that system.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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The problem with education is not the standards it's the culture. When parent's care about their kids education and most of the other parents do too then the kids do well. It takes parents holding their kids accountable and driving them to succeed instead of just checking in to see if their kid has homework and then never verifying with the teacher later on to see if the kid lied. Because kids NEVER lie about having homework right?!
Some areas do have funding issues but over all if you have a desk, books, and a teacher then you can learn just fine IF YOU WANT TO. The hard part is making the kids WANT TO LEARN and do what it takes TO LEARN. I mean a teacher can only do so much when a kid is hell bent on not wanting to be there.
Asia has a culture of Confucius where they view school and learning as being just as important as breathing so parents are on their kids from morning to night pounding it in that they need to study hard. They send them to private schools AFTER regular school lets out and THEN they hire private tutors on top of that. That's even if they are poor. They will stay poor to make sure their kids get a good education if that is what it takes. So money spent on kids education from one to the other is also hard to calculate since asians spend so much money outside and on top of the public school setting.
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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we have to tell them that because right now there isn't another choice. so yea, its either give it your all in public school to get to the next level or likely become nothing. thats American culture in a nutshell is it not? sink or swim, no in between. thats the culture thats been created since before i was born, hell maybe even before you were born as well.
this country specifically is a contradiction. you're absolutely right about what the kids see and hear everyday, and maybe that should be a big ass shiny light bulb telling you that this is the reason young people are moving to more socialist based ideas and policies, cause they're watching *****IN GENERAL**** how european countries are operating and they want it to be like that as well.
andi don't blame them one bit. i mean hell DC, did you see the news?
despite the US only accounting for 5% of the worlds population, we consume 80% of opioids and prescription drugs.
#1 in drug use #1 in prison population #1 in warfare
we're #1 in everything that NOBODY wants to be #1 in.
but how come the richest country on the planet isn't #1 in infrastructure? #1 in education the MAJORITY? #1 in healthcare? #1 in overall health? #1 in happiness?
Dems are trash but atleast they are trying to change the narrative and overall culture. i rather roll with them than be with republicans who just call any sort of change unAmerican. thats for damn sure.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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The problem is that most of that message they're receiving is true. No, most of it is NOT true. We have plenty of students who go through public education and do fantastic.. because they care, somebody has influenced them enough to care... There are a TON of decent paying jobs out there, especially right now.. Get a decent job, generally you get decent healthcare, that's a pretty straightforward formula... Most of the race/gender disputes are those at either end of the spectrum screaming at each other.. I don't know anybody in my personal life who has any real issues with either... but nobody shoves a camera in their face or video tapes them generally being nice to other people.. College doesn't have to be unreasonably expensive.. go to a community college first, go to a local college where you can live at home, do things on-line.... do you want the education (which can be reasonably priced) or the experience of living in a dorm and getting wasted at televised football games (which is expensive)? It's up to you.. Do you want to spend $50K a year on an education to be a secondary school teacher with a starting salary of $38k/year? That's just idiotic... but people do it. The best way to motivate them is to tell them that through education they can help change that system. In theory but I doubt it. Telling a 15 year old that if they work hard in school they can be one peon trying to change the massive system 10-15 years from now isn't a realistic goal that they would shoot for.. they need things more immediate. They need praise for good behavior and consequences for bad behavior almost daily.. they need short term goals and short term reasons why what they are doing is important. Problem is we now have a system that doesn't praise them enough because that makes other kids feel bad... and it doesn't show them real consequences because that makes THEM feel bad... American kids are as smart as any kids in the world, I guarantee it... problem is we can't give them a reasonable answer to the question of WHY this is important that resonates with them.
yebat' Putin
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we have to tell them that because right now there isn't another choice. so yea, its either give it your all in public school to get to the next level or likely become nothing. thats American culture in a nutshell is it not? sink or swim, no in between. thats the culture thats been created since before i was born, hell maybe even before you were born as well.
this country specifically is a contradiction. you're absolutely right about what the kids see and hear everyday, and maybe that should be a big ass shiny light bulb telling you that this is the reason young people are moving to more socialist based ideas and policies, cause they're watching *****IN GENERAL**** how european countries are operating and they want it to be like that as well.
andi don't blame them one bit. i mean hell DC, did you see the news?
despite the US only accounting for 5% of the worlds population, we consume 80% of opioids and prescription drugs.
#1 in drug use #1 in prison population #1 in warfare
we're #1 in everything that NOBODY wants to be #1 in.
but how come the richest country on the planet isn't #1 in infrastructure? #1 in education the MAJORITY? #1 in healthcare? #1 in overall health? #1 in happiness?
Dems are trash but atleast they are trying to change the narrative and overall culture. i rather roll with them than be with republicans who just call any sort of change unAmerican. thats for damn sure. I think the problem lies in that people expect perfect results from the government even though they will never get them. I think Socialism is fine for social issues but really bad on economies. So I think it's best to mix socialism and capitalism together and get the best of both worlds. I admit there is no easy way to do that but I think it's worth thinking about.
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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Colleges are big business, you are a number, cattle to be herded. Federally backed student loans have exacerbated this problem. There is ZERO risk on for the college to bring in 10’s of thousands of students and give them free money to not go to class. The Students “rate” the teachers, so if you give out deserved “F’s” you get poorly rated and potentially removed. They offer you nothing, the counselors are overwhelmed, and once you’re graduated you don’t exist.
They will gleefully allow you to head down a 12 year doctorate program only to not give one [censored] about you once you’re done writing those checks. It much like our government is a corrupt morally bereft system.
I saw this tweet yesterday that explains it pretty well.
Last edited by BpG; 01/30/19 05:02 PM.
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Telling a child growing up to help make a positive change for mankind and the citizens of his own nation is the greatest goal you can instill in a child.
Often times it's the frustrated and down trodden in this world that grow up to be the greatest motivators of change. I never want them to miss that message.
Our college students are being used to make big business succeed. Anyone who puts education before business knows that anything above the prime interest rate being inflicted on students for education isn't about education at all. They're using them when they are young to line their pockets later.
But hey, putting business ahead of education is the American way, right?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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i agree with the mix.
the disconnect is the mix itself. from my perspective, and a growing amount of others in my generation and younger, are seeing a heavy imbalance to the right. Dems are trying to push it back to the middle by offering up more liberal policies, and thats being viewed from conservatives as it being pushed to the far left, when its actually just moving it back to the middle.
all these stupid ass tax cuts, deregulation and lack of emphasis on education and infrastructure is making a lot of people highly impatient with the direction of the country.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Both sides suck and can kiss my entire ASS.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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It is and it should. I think the real question is where does the balance between socialism and capitalism mix? Most rational people realize that corporate money and purely business interests shouldn't be the ruling faction of our nation. It's where that balance between the two belong that's the real issue.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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exactly. and giving the wealthy/businesses 1.5 trill in tax cuts and not demanding anything in return isn't exactly striking making the imbalance better.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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I have no idea why anyone expected otherwise.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Telling a child growing up to help make a positive change for mankind and the citizens of his own nation is the greatest goal you can instill in a child. I'm not disagreeing with you.. but if it's a goal that large and it's 10-15 years away, it's hard for a child to focus on a goal like that.. you have to provide milestone goals and objectives along the way to get to the big goal... Once again, I think we are on the same side but still arguing about it.
yebat' Putin
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exactly. and giving the wealthy/businesses 1.5 trill in tax cuts and not demanding anything in return isn't exactly striking making the imbalance better. See, I don't disagree with you. And you made a subtle distinction in there.. the "wealthy/businesses"... I'm much MORE in favor of giving businesses tax cuts and much LESS in favor of giving wealthy individuals tax cuts. It's a distinction that I don't think enough people make.. If you have a guy who owns a very successful restaurant and makes a lot of money, allowing him to keep as much as possible increases the chances he will expand, open other restaurants, etc which is all good for the economy... The CEO of GE, who makes upwards of $20 million a year... allowing him to keep more and more of that does almost NOTHING for the economy. He isn't reinvesting in GE to grow the business, he just sits on most of it, he already has the homes, cars, boats, or whatever consumer spending could grow the economy.
yebat' Putin
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I only believe in giving businesses tax cuts that do not receive any corporate welfare. As an example, Walmart.
If their employees are being subsidized with American tax dollars they don't deserve a tax cut. Now I think small businesses with less than 5 employees amy be an exception to this. But even then I'm not so sure about it.
I can't see a company like Walmart, having one family making billions annually, getting tax cuts while American taxpayers are subsidizing their employees.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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here's the thing: look at the examples you used.
we went from a guy who owns a restaurant to a CEO. the guy who owns a restaurant can be reasonable assumed to be a small business owner. i've stated before i support tax cuts for small businesses.
look at the example you DIDN'T use. you mentioned the CEO of GE, but not GE itself. now, i don't have a problem with the CEO of GE balling out. the issue is him balling out because he decided to cut the american workforce and move manufacturing to mexico, while simutaeously demanding that his multi BILLION dollar publicly traded corporation receives even more tax cuts, despite the fact that they paid pretty much nothing in taxes to begin with.
you're gonna have a tough time convincing me that multi billion dollar profiting companies need tax cuts.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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we went from a guy who owns a restaurant to a CEO. the guy who owns a restaurant can be reasonable assumed to be a small business owner. i've stated before i support tax cuts for small businesses. Awesome. One point where we agree. you mentioned the CEO of GE, but not GE itself. now, i don't have a problem with the CEO of GE balling out. Me either but when he is using every tax loop hole in the books to eventually pay a lower % than you and me, then that's a big problem. look at the example you DIDN'T use. ..... the issue is him balling out because he decided to cut the american workforce and move manufacturing to mexico, while simutaeously demanding that his multi BILLION dollar publicly traded corporation receives even more tax cuts, despite the fact that they paid pretty much nothing in taxes to begin with.
you're gonna have a tough time convincing me that multi billion dollar profiting companies need tax cuts. See, another spot where we agree. I'm just stuck on what to do about it. There are a lot of moving parts to these decisions like US wages vs other country wages, there is the fact that GE sells products all over the world so it stands to reason they would make products all over the world.. In a perfect world, we would use the tax code to reward companies who keep jobs here and pay higher wages... and punish companies who voluntarily take jobs overseas and/or pay substandard wages... I'm just not sure how you do that.
yebat' Putin
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performance based tax rates. complex but could *start* to address the problem. i wouldnt know exactly how to go about it but a few ideas:
- % of your workforce being american/legal immigrants gives you a lower tax rate. - your annual gross profit/labor force which determines whether or not you're considered a small business gives you a lower rate - % of your plants being based in america gives you a lower tax rate. - level of export/import ratio gives you a lower/higher tax rate.
so for example, in theory it would go like this, at least for the big corporations:
the corporations that have a very high % of their plants and workforce based in the US, as well as buying more domestic commodities and exporting more than they import will give them the lowest rate.
the corporations that outsource their labor, have plants outside of america, and import their products into the country more than they export out will have the highest tax rates.
obviously thats a completely vague and rough idea, and i have no idea if it would work, nevermind fly with the american people, but its an idea nonetheless.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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A big part of the problem is that the current tax codes are so complex, and need to be simplified, remove as many loopholes as you can.
Make personal income extremely simple. Flat tax on earnings levels? Fewer deductible expenses. No credits, or credits only for lowest income brackets.
I agree with Swish's performance based taxes
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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It's a rough idea but I think it's on the right track. Obviously corporations are going to whine about having to track this additional information.. but so be it.
I was thinking about a ratio along the lines of what you are describing. If 60% of your sales/profits come from the US, then 60% of your production should be done in the US.. then if that is higher or lower, your tax rate goes up or down, depending...
Previously you said you don't care if the CEO of GE balls out with his earnings and in general, neither do I... but here is the problem with that..
Keeping GE as the example, even though a lot of the big corporations are like this, his salary is $3-4 million per year but his total compensation package can be upwards of $20 million. (Bezos is probably the worst, I think his salary is about $90k)
this means that 75-80% of his PERSONAL income is based on incentives, usually in the form of stock or options but something based on company performance.. in theory a package where he makes more if the company makes more seems like a pretty fair deal...
But if his personal income is largely tied to the stock price going up, then his only motivation is to drive profit and drive the stock price up... best way to do that is to make your product as cheaply as possible either outside the US or by keeping wages as low as possible. By cutting whatever ecology corners you can get away with. By rushing inferior products to market, etc... There is absolutely zero incentive for a CEO to "do the right thing" by the employees or the customers. They are motivated to pay the employees not a penny more than it takes to keep them from quitting.
Some of my friends on the right believe that is exactly how a free market should work.. I happen to believe a multi-billion dollar corporation has a greater responsibility than that..
yebat' Putin
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Yea, my business is in process of being acquired by a much larger company, and my understanding is that salary will make up just a portion of the total comp package. Incentive plan will be a large role as well as RSU's where a large portion of your compensation is tied into a stock vesting schedule. Engineers at companies like the one that I'm being acquired at, it's not uncommon for your RSU's to make up 40-50% of your overall income.
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Yet people get mad when Dems push for higher education standards.
We’re dumb, and continue to get dumb by the year. But hey, the wall is what’s most important. Yer go'damn right it is. If it wasn't for the Mexicans coming over and taking our jobs and raping our women, we'd probably be able to make that computer twice as fast as those cheap chinamen  This is HOF worthy. 
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.
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Both sides suck and can kiss my entire ASS. The typical response when you can no longer defend your side.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.
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Both sides suck and can kiss my entire ASS. The typical response when you can no longer defend your side. The typical response when you have aligned yourself with a side.
yebat' Putin
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