I think this will be Sashi Brown's first public comments since he was fired. Should be fun and interesting.
Looking forward to this.
Stephen Dubner of the Freakonomics podcast has said they will be covering this event and asking questions as well, I believe (on the asking questions part).
Warren Sharp will be an interesting speaker as well. He's been a leader in the field of advanced analytics for football, i.e., efficiency, toxicity, situational success, etc...
Weren't you a big Banner fan back in the day? How many job offers did he get after he got fired?
Not really sure what all this has to do with the article though.
I wouldn't say I was a "big Banner fan," but I made a point of saying he deserved a legitimate chance to build the Browns, especially after all the success he had in Philly.
The big difference is that I didn't continue to cry and whine about him long after he was gone.
Sashi was fired. He isn't going to come back and take Dorsey's place. He's gone. Guys like Memphis continue to fight some stupid battle that is irrelevant. Other than feeding one's ego, this topic should should fade away into the abyss.
Edit: I do have a question for you. Are you calling me out for making that post while ignoring all the posts that Memphis, device, and Excel are making in support of Sashi? LOL
I'm not getting pulled into this mess...if you want me to post my thoughts on Sashi, I will, but this isn't the thread for that. All I will say is I believe the plan the analytics team employed did help pull us out of the pit that we were in back in 2015. It wasn't easy to go through at the time but it worked.
Now, go back and read the 1st page, and see who brought up Sashi first, and who was the most antagonistic?
I think this will be Sashi Brown's first public comments since he was fired. Should be fun and interesting.
Looking forward to this.
Stephen Dubner of the Freakonomics podcast has said they will be covering this event and asking questions as well, I believe (on the asking questions part).
Warren Sharp will be an interesting speaker as well. He's been a leader in the field of advanced analytics for football, i.e., efficiency, toxicity, situational success, etc...
Here is last year's panel.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
Browns' analytics department played a significant role in the hiring of Freddie Kitchens
The Browns relied on a large contingent to handle their latest coaching search, a group comprised of ownership/family, football operations and analytics, with that final department playing no small role in the decision to decide between rookie play callers Freddie Kitchens and Kevin Stefanski, sources said.
Despite Browns owner Jimmy Haslam firing much of his previous staffs and reorganizing his front office in various ways over the years, chief strategy officer Paul DePodesta, a longtime baseball executive who spends most of his time in California, and Andrew Berry, vice president of player personnel who was brought in by DePodesta, both played a pivotal role in this decision. They are very highly thought of by Dee Haslam, they played a critical role in vetting candidates, and their studies on the various candidates were also central to the process, sources said.
General manager John Dorsey was the public face of the search, and the point-man for the process, but the Browns team of interviewers included more Haslam family members than football people brought in by Dorsey and much of the group was comprised of individuals who had never been a part of a successful coaching search in the past.
The Browns ultimately chose the model that is all the rage in the NFL these days – a younger offensive coach with at least some experience coaching quarterbacks and calling plays. Kitchens' quality work with rookie quarterback Baker Mayfield since taking over play calling after the firing of coach Hue Jackson and coordinator Todd Haley, and the team's reluctance to lose him to another franchise as their offensive coordinator, carried significant weight in the process. But the analytics side of the building championed his merits as well as those of Stefanski, who took over play calling duties in Minnesota in December after never having done so before.
Stefanski was not considered for other head-coaching opportunities and re-signed with the Vikings as their offensive coordinator after the Browns hired Kitchens. The analytics department in Cleveland – even with former general manager Sashi Brown, who championed their rise, long gone – remains a strong force in that organization with a direct line to ownership, sources said
Also, the above article doesn't say anything about whether Depo and crew landed on Kitchens or like Stefanski more, just that they're an important part in the overall decision-making process. And the model LaCanfora references isn't necessarily analytics. It's the rave of the NFL. Just look how many teams hired young offensive minds. It's the McVey effect.
The article is referencing a more macro element to the Browns that you overlooked....and that is how much ownership is leaning on that department for several things, not just players/scouting. But coaching, development, training. Perhaps even the business side of things like sales processes, marketing etc.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
That information was in articles. I'll quote parts of three articles and provide the links to all three to save space.
Quote:
Per a league source, the choice may come down to an internal battle of wills, with the football guys (led by John Dorsey) pulling one way and the analytics guys (led by Paul DePodesta) pulling the other.
The problem is that both Dorsey and DePodesta report independently to owner Jimmy Haslam. The reality is that quarterback Baker Mayfield could break the tie, and his input definitely matters.
“What I was told of what was going on in Cleveland was a tug-o-war between the football people, led by John Dorsey, and the analytics people, led by Paul DePodesta, who is still there, who still has a direct report to Jimmy Haslam, owner of the team, and still has a lot of influence,” Florio said on his national television show.
“Dorsey wanted Freddie Kitchens, and DePodesta wanted Vikings offensive coordinator Kevin Stefanski. And at one point, it was leaning Stefanski, but you know who broke the tie, baby? The guy who has come in and really taken everything under his power and control in Cleveland. Baker Mayfield wanted Kitchens. Baker Mayfield gets Kitchens.”
This last one is from Seth Wickersham's epic article about Haslam's leadership w/the Browns.
Quote:
"That ends today," Kitchens says.
He speaks fast in a gentle Southern accent. He comes off real and deep and earnest. The pain of having watched his dad grind at a tire factory and be laid off set the foundation for his own belief in hard work, he says as his eyes seem to turn wet and glassy. He knows he wasn't a fashionable choice, but he was Dorsey's choice, just as the Mayfield pick was Dorsey's pick. For once, Haslam didn't parade in friends to watch last year's draft. It was a scout's draft. The analytics team had limited influence. Dorsey was skeptical of their helpfulness when he first got the job. He told an associate that he didn't need "f---ing nerds" to tell him how to evaluate players. He's since warmed up, sources say. Today, Dorsey not only got his preferred coach but also his preferred structure. Kitchens will report to Dorsey, forcing collaboration and eliminating the appeals court to Haslam. Nobody knows if it will matter, given how Haslam operates. But for one day, at least, it feels good to be a Brown. As Dorsey privately told an associate: "I flexed my muscles and got what I wanted."
Yeah, the fact that Dorsey had to overhaul almost the entire secondary, the QB room and the RB position has nothing to do with where we are today. I mean anybody could have done that, right?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Yeah, the fact that Dorsey had to overhaul almost the entire secondary, the QB room and the RB position has nothing to do with where we are today. I mean anybody could have done that, right?
No one is arguing what Dorsey did with adding good players like Mayfield, Chubb, Ward, and Randall.
You are debating yourself on that front.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
According to some pretty much an overhaul of the skill positions and a three fifths roster turnover wasn't a critical part of winning. Have you been reading the thread?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
That information was in articles. I'll quote parts of three articles and provide the links to all three to save space.
Quote:
Per a league source, the choice may come down to an internal battle of wills, with the football guys (led by John Dorsey) pulling one way and the analytics guys (led by Paul DePodesta) pulling the other.
The problem is that both Dorsey and DePodesta report independently to owner Jimmy Haslam. The reality is that quarterback Baker Mayfield could break the tie, and his input definitely matters.
Alright. There were in articles as well as twitter posts. The above one doesn't definitively say what was what. "The choice may come down..." This is opininon.
Quote:
“What I was told of what was going on in Cleveland was a tug-o-war between the football people, led by John Dorsey, and the analytics people, led by Paul DePodesta, who is still there, who still has a direct report to Jimmy Haslam, owner of the team, and still has a lot of influence,” Florio said on his national television show.
“Dorsey wanted Freddie Kitchens, and DePodesta wanted Vikings offensive coordinator Kevin Stefanski. And at one point, it was leaning Stefanski, but you know who broke the tie, baby? The guy who has come in and really taken everything under his power and control in Cleveland. Baker Mayfield wanted Kitchens. Baker Mayfield gets Kitchens.”
This portion does certainly allude to a difference of opinion based on Florio's sources.
This last one is from Seth Wickersham's epic article about Haslam's leadership w/the Browns.
Quote:
"That ends today," Kitchens says.
He speaks fast in a gentle Southern accent. He comes off real and deep and earnest. The pain of having watched his dad grind at a tire factory and be laid off set the foundation for his own belief in hard work, he says as his eyes seem to turn wet and glassy. He knows he wasn't a fashionable choice, but he was Dorsey's choice, just as the Mayfield pick was Dorsey's pick. For once, Haslam didn't parade in friends to watch last year's draft. It was a scout's draft. The analytics team had limited influence. Dorsey was skeptical of their helpfulness when he first got the job. He told an associate that he didn't need "f---ing nerds" to tell him how to evaluate players. He's since warmed up, sources say. Today, Dorsey not only got his preferred coach but also his preferred structure. Kitchens will report to Dorsey, forcing collaboration and eliminating the appeals court to Haslam. Nobody knows if it will matter, given how Haslam operates. But for one day, at least, it feels good to be a Brown. As Dorsey privately told an associate: "I flexed my muscles and got what I wanted."
This mentions nothing about who wanted what from the analtyics department.
So, in total, we have one article from LaCanfora which doesn't definitively suggest anything outside of the important role the department has in the decision-making process, and two excerpts from you which doesn't add much color about what anayltics wanted and one which is referencing what each side wanted based on what Florio's source told him. I think I have that right.
That said, if ultimately DePo & Co. wanted Stefanski and Dorsey wanted Kitchens, then the correct path was taken, IMO. Because with Kitchens reporting to Dorsey, it should have been Dorsey's ultimate call. That would have been akin to the entire FO wanting to work with Doug Sean McDermott and we utimately hire Hue Jackson.
Last edited by MemphisBrownie; 02/07/1911:37 AM.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
The three-fifth roster turnover as it relates to the team's immediate success is what some people don't agree with when so much of that turover is full of backups, ST players, players who barely saw the field, players brought on that didn't perform as well as the people they replaced in some situations, and players added then subsequently cut a month later.
Adding a franchise QB with players like Ward, Randall, & Chubb (which Dorsey deserves all the credit for selecting/trading for), alongside firing Hue (also to Dorsey's credit) were the biggest reasons for the turnaround, not this nebulous 30 number and all the players included in it you keep trying to push.
Did you watch how much better this team was with Mayfield instead of Taylor? Did you watch how much better this team was with Williams instead of Jackson?
If both Taylor and Hue remained as a starter and HC respectively, this team's record in 2018 sucks and you're here today talking about how there aren't enough "real players", "Dorsey has such a hard job rebuilding" instead of "It's the 60% turnover rate, I tell ya!"
You reference facts....well, the facts are right there in front of you.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
Was trying to stay away but just couldn't after reading that short statement.
1. And yet we read that Mr. Dorsey found himself in a very enviable position.
2. We had Talent. Edge Rusher...two book ends in Ogbah and Garret. OL we had the Interior. TE we had Njoku and Devalve.
Dont get me wrong no where near the talent needed yet but a smattering of good young players. Some possible great ones if they progress correctly.
3. We had the Number 1 and #4 pick in the draft along with #33 and 35.
4. We had an amazing amount of Cap Space to get some needs and strong veteran talent.
So again, unless I miss interpreted what you came out and said. that we were a complete mess when he left. But how could that be when we were told not just by Cleveland Press but all over that the situation is Cleveland was a win win situation to get.
We were a team mess in talent in those 2 seasons as we did a total rebuild never seen before. Most rebuilds we had in the past were not a "TOTAL" all out rebuild.
If anything the Mess was over with Pit. Dorsey found himself in a GM's dream situation.
Some very good players but not yet close to a team. A Gold mine of draft picks in one of the strongest drafts out there.
Money up the gazoo...just like that commercial...lol
It was no where close to being a MESS.
There was a mess in leadership starting with Hue Jackson. That was pretty evident. We did have the business end taken care of. Also in a new age of analytics upon us we had the KING of Analytics in our corner.
So I fail to see this MESS you state was there.
If I'm wrong please show me the error of my ways. Don't forget its ok for you to state that you possibly were incorrect and miss spoke...Everyone does from time to time.
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
Yeah, rebuilding the WR unit, the secondary and the RB's had nothing to do with it.
And lest we forget, even as terrible as Hue was, he won twice as many games in half of a season as HC with Dorsety's roster as he did in his first two full seasons with Sashi's roster. And don't forget to throw in a tie. Unless of course your claim is that Baker was studding out in his first few starts with Haley running the O.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Hey I spelled it out for you.. Its pretty Black and White.
Shooting spitball in response is not making you look smarter...lol
done with this discussion. I don't think you have a leg to stand on. It is what it is, its not all just a matter of opinion there are actual facts there to prove a point. All you have to do is go back on memory...All were stating what a General Managers Dream situation we were handing Dorsey. Not a soul is trying to say he didn't do an OUTSTANDING Job with the tools given him... I don't even know what point you are trying to make???
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
Interesting, because a previous article claimed that the analytics guys wanted Stefanski and Dorsey wanted Kitchens, w/Dorsey eventually winning.
I remember that.
Perhaps there wasn't a struggle. Perhaps Depo said it was narrowed down to 2 clear options. Perhaps Stefanski was rated slightly higher.
With all that has gone on for a few years, it is custom when writing about the Browns to inject some sort of power struggle.
As I have said before, Depo isn't doing this to form the list of players we are taking. It is about identifying players we might want to consider...consider players we might want to take or to pass. It is also a way to act as another cross check for Dorsey...does his guy match the numbers so to speak...especially on players where Dorsey might have some reservations even if he likes them.
It's just a different take on scouting. The scouts see these guys in practice and games. They talk to them. Depo doesn't do that, but he compares them to other players on a results basis. I don't claim to know what all goes in to his magic box, but I would assume that much is crossing various metrics to other players to give them a grade just as scouts grade players..
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
It's certainly another tool in the tool belt for Dorsey to help base his decisions on.
I agree, since I have been saying that for a while.
There isn't some power struggle between Depo and Dorsey. Depo doesn't want to somehow take over. He wants to do his thing out in California because it really doesn't matter where he does the bulk of his work. He isn't stepping on toes if he ranks someone higher than Dorsey. He knows it is hard to input many intangibles that have to be decided by 1 on 1 contact with the players. He just shows up in Berea to show what he has, explain the why's or why not's, and that's it.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
I really have no idea what you are trying to do. I'm not saying that it in a mean way, but you are confusing the hell out of me.
I have said almost nothing about Sashi in this thread. I brought up that he hasn't landed a job w/any other other team. I made that as a general statement and was not talking to you. In fact, I am not aware of you even posting on this thread before then.
You replied to me and brought up me being a big fan of Banner or something like that. I replied honestly and indicated that I don't bring Banner up. I don't pine for him to receive credit or be brought back.
You then replied back to me and said you didn't want to get pulled into this mess w/Sashi. See, I don't get that. You asked me a question out of the blue and I answered it and then you say you don't want to get pulled into this mess and you would give your thoughts on Sashi in another thread. Uhmmmm........I didn't ask for your thoughts on Sashi. I don't even care to hear them. This entire Sashi/Hue junk is just that. Both are gone.
The last post you made was something about going back to page one to see who started it. I am not going to even attempt to answer that one because it will just start another barrage of the same old tired back and forth.
Hope you have a nice day and perhaps we can have a football conversation at some point on another thread.
I think analytics have a place in football. A fairly significant place. I believe in using every tool that is available to you and analytics is one of those tools.
To be clear, I consider it a "tool" rather than a mantra. The problem is that relying strictly on analytics to the degree we wanted to use it has never resulted in championships.
The only other thing I want to add is to make a comment about Joe Banner. Dude was probably the Godfather of analytics, yet the same people who love Sashi hated Banner.
Banner hired Sashi. He started the entire thing when he was in Philly and brought it to Cleveland. According to Wickersham's article, Sashi went to Haslam and made a pitch to return to the things that Banner had started a few years earlier.
In my perfect world, I think it would be great if you could somehow get a football guy like Dorsey and an analytics/business guy like Banner to work hand-in-hand w/the football guy having the ultimate say while having a ton of respect for what the analytics guy has to offer.
Hasnt that been the same way it's always been, though? But now we have a new name for it.
In any sport, people scout , they evaluate, look at stats and measurables, learn about the person, make their selections and after that, they hope they got it right.
I think analytics have a place in football. A fairly significant place. I believe in using every tool that is available to you and analytics is one of those tools.
To be clear, I consider it a "tool" rather than a mantra. The problem is that relying strictly on analytics to the degree we wanted to use it has never resulted in championships.
The only other thing I want to add is to make a comment about Joe Banner. Dude was probably the Godfather of analytics, yet the same people who love Sashi hated Banner.
Banner hired Sashi. He started the entire thing when he was in Philly and brought it to Cleveland. According to Wickersham's article, Sashi went to Haslam and made a pitch to return to the things that Banner had started a few years earlier.
In my perfect world, I think it would be great if you could somehow get a football guy like Dorsey and an analytics/business guy like Banner to work hand-in-hand w/the football guy having the ultimate say while having a ton of respect for what the analytics guy has to offer.
I think we are now developing that. Dorsey listens to Depo and Depo understands if Dorsey goes another way. There may have been, or may be, times where Depo changes Dorseys mind on a player.
I think top picks is pretty easy for both sides except at QB. It's starting in maybe round 3 where analytics is of it's biggest value. Helping to sort out all the players who bunch up on the traditional grading scale in the mid to late rounds. That is where you probably see players pop out the most..either to the good or bad side of things.
Good thing we nailed it at QB last year with both Dorsey and Depo in agreement that Baker was the guy we needed to pick.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
I think analytics have a place in football. A fairly significant place. I believe in using every tool that is available to you and analytics is one of those tools.
To be clear, I consider it a "tool" rather than a mantra. The problem is that relying strictly on analytics to the degree we wanted to use it has never resulted in championships.
The only other thing I want to add is to make a comment about Joe Banner. Dude was probably the Godfather of analytics, yet the same people who love Sashi hated Banner.
Banner hired Sashi. He started the entire thing when he was in Philly and brought it to Cleveland. According to Wickersham's article, Sashi went to Haslam and made a pitch to return to the things that Banner had started a few years earlier.
In my perfect world, I think it would be great if you could somehow get a football guy like Dorsey and an analytics/business guy like Banner to work hand-in-hand w/the football guy having the ultimate say while having a ton of respect for what the analytics guy has to offer.
Nobody loved Sashi... I actually thing he behaved like a gentleman after he got sacked.
Most of us, at the least the ones who were right, hated HUE, that's a whole different thing.
I actually think that Sashi and Dorsey could be both on the same team. Sashi is really good numbers and business side, Dorsey is good on the Football side,both of them seam to have really good characters.
Now, KEY to the transformation was FIRING HUE and Hiring DORSEY, those are the two most significant actions taken, IMHO.
My hero this year was Haley, who got Hue fired and gave us a running game and an offense that was scoring 21 point in average.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
That's a really good take on things.
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg)