DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... The Shroud of Turin

If you know nothing about the Shroud of Turin, give this site a checkout....even if you do know something, check it out, why does it exist after 2,000 years AND make sure you review the carbon dating info....how was the negative image formed and how much of it is imprinted on linen cloth....makes no sense why it exists. Food for thought. https://www.shroud.com/

Wasn't this already carbon dated to like the 7th-9th century AD?

Yeah, but apparently it was in a building that caught fire and the smoke residue screwed up the carbon dating.

I saw something on Nat Geo or the Discovery Channel about it a while back. Pretty fascinating stuff. Lots of scientific information on why it could be real.

Pseudoscience.

Yeah, that mysterious fire made things complicated .... might be Jesus, might be the lizard king.

I think it's was da Vinci personally....

Well he was basically a god among men, genius wise.

da Vinci looked at his aid, saying, "I'm going to show the world what michelangelo should look like, here, hold my ale".

Worth watching. Based on science.

Reminded me of this Far Side comic

The carbon dating issue arose from the fact the threads cut from the shroud were on the edge and were threads used to repair the shroud, not original woven threads that would have damaged the shroud had they been allowed to take them from the interior. The newer threads affected the carbon dating.

There hasn't been, to my knowledge, any use of the already burned portions of the shroud as a source for carbon dating. I'm curious why not but I believe it has to do with the Church tightly maintaining its control. I think already burned (carbonized) sections of the shroud would give a truer picture of its age.

The shroud is an interesting artifact. Scientist can't figure out how it was made. I do know they've found pollen on the shroud that dated to the 1st century, and that pollen was native to the Israel area. Carbon dating has been all over the place.

JMHO, few went to sight, just some jests. Carbon dating was compromised by nuns fixing burn holes using cotton in Middle Ages. Image has 3D properties which shouldn't exist, it's on linen-shouldn't be possible, shows both sides of a crucified man on single linen. A book was written about the Shroud under the Microscope....check the summary out.
Remember, we all live forever....not.

One of the most fascinating aspects of the Shroud is the 3D quality of the image.

Why do people who are atheists have to be so damn disrespectful to those who believe?

They believe it helps strengthen their belief (or lack of). By putting someone else down it helps inflate their own sense of superiority.

Me personally, I'm neither religious or atheist. I suppose you could call me agnostic, but that wouldn't really fit either. I do believe there is somekind of unifying force in this existence. IF that force is personified, I think that entity has left us to our own devices to sort things out.

I have no idea why most atheists have this childish, middle school level view on religion. The human experience is a largely tragic one. Religion often is a source of comfort that gets people through that existence. The atheists will point to religion as a source of atrocity, but I'd point out the fact that secular ideology has massacred more innocent people, and 99.9999% of crimes committed lack a religious motivation.

I can appreciate an atheist like Sam Harris. He believes religion is antiquated and morals and values can be achieved through rational thought. He minimizing suffering and improving well being. He's put some thought in to the subject and isn't simply some cynical jackwad.

I think when you see some of the judgemental posts from "believers", how they try to impose their religious beliefs into law, it's no wonder others lash out towards them.

I'm a believer who feels that freedom of religion also means freedom from religion. Trying to impose my beliefs on the life of others only brings wrath and I see why.

I read an interesting quote the other day. I'm paraphrasing, but it went something like, "All religions are about man's attempt to connect with God, not God's attempt to connect with man because He is with us always."

It went on to say something about all religions have it right in their attempts but none have it right in their "facts". The truth is impossible for us to know.

Interesting take, I thought. Perhaps if more people understood that notion, there would be more religious tolerance.

I think we must face the fact that religion isn't very tolerant of people who don't believe as they do as well. Sometimes it's as simple as, "Life is a two way street".

Unless you're downtown.

It isn't religions that aren't intolerant, it's people within them who can't see beyond the ends of their noses. It's the "mine is better than yours" BS in things like religion, country, state, school, political belief, economical status, etc. that keep us separated. The divides themselves are all manmade. There are no divisive "borders" within spirituality itself.

Ah, but I think you're confusing spirituality with religion. Spirituality is way of being. Religion is an invention of man.

Good stuff guys.

lol, I'm not confusing them, that is exactly my point.

I didn't think I was forcing my beliefs on anyone, sorry if anyone felt forced. I'm a believer, and a member of a major Christian faith....beyond that, I'm just asking folks to check out this relic from the past and make sense of some STARTLING FACTS.

- image has 3D properties and it's on a LINEN cloth- and fits exactly to most read book in world, the Bible.

- explain how it was made- it ain't paint, no special stain- it's in millions of inch in depth, but it is there and shows both sides of a crucified man- how can it exist.

For those who are non-believers, cool, but check it out and ask your brain how can this exist.

Me, personally, it's easy- just like asking questions about how our earth exists- if the gasses making up our atmosphere are just a little off, none of us could breath....and please don't mention the big bang...really, why haven't we found any other planets like our own IF it's so easy to all come together from nothing but a big bang.

Don't mean to preach, just asking folks to check out the relic...PS the Sudarium in Oviedo happens, by chance to have exact number of blood stains as burial shroud and same exact blood type....weird how they both just exist. All the best.

Eh...types like Harris, Dawkins, and Maher turn out to be massive Islamophobes. I dunno what draws them to act like that.

Link

Many atheist are Christianophobes. I don't know what draws them to act like that.

Now I am not saying all are, or that most are. I am saying many are.

The light burns!

They aren't Islamaphobes. They are simply honest enough to criticize Islam the way they do other religions. I can see why you would mistake that. It's something most atheists are too cowardly to do in general.

Unfortunately, many Christians are Christianophobes.

They are terrified of anyone having any idea that they are a Christian, and even just speaking about their faith seems to cause them intense discomfort. They never read their Bibles, and sometimes even dispute what the Bible says. They "must" keep their faith to themselves, despite Jesus saying that we are to do the exact opposite. We are to share our faith with others, and plant seeds that God can grow into thriving faith in them as well. This is the whole point of the "Great Commission", and Jesus's instruction that His Disciples "fish for people". Why do so many people today think that these applied only to Jesus's Disciples, and not to them? Now, I don't think that we necessarily have to leave our homes and go to a foreign country to share our faith, but man, we can, and should, do so right outside of our doors.

Jesus spoke of the wide gate and the narrow gate, and I fear that many "secret" Christians will find it impossible to find the narrow gate that leads to life. We each make our own faith decisions, just as God allows us to do, and there are eternal consequences for those decisions. Either we have that faith in Christ that truly believes that He is the Son of God, and the Savior of the world, who died for our sins ...... or we don't. If we truly have that faith, I cannot understand how anyone could, or would want to keep it to himself. It is the most amazing and important thing anyone could ever hear about ..... The Holy God, redeeming His creation by being born into this same life we each live ..... and after having lived a perfect and sin-free life, and preaching the Word of God to all, then sacrificed Himself on the cross, suffering a torturous death, nailed naked to a cross by the road leading into and out of Jerusalem, in front of his mother ..... and being buried in our filth and sins, (which are absolutely repugnant to a Holy God) died. Dead. God the Son was dead, separated from God the Father and God the Holy Spirit, and He was dead for 3 days. This is the sacrifice God made for us. This is what so many Christians seem to be so hesitant to discuss with others. I don't get it. Speaking for myself, this is the most important thing that has ever happened to me. I cannot imagine how it is not for anyone else who claims to be a Christian. I can't imagine how any Christian would even want to keep this to themselves. For a Christian, this is the greatest news of all time ... God, sacrificing Himself, to save US. How can anyone keep that to himself? Why would anyone who believes want to do so, especially when we are taught that Jesus is the only way to salvation, and eternal life?

Very True

See? This right here? This is the type of thinking that creates divides. There is no possible way you could know what God is thinking, or finds repulsive or repugnant. If you believe in Him, you must believe He is the creator of all things. Including "sin". You claim to spread the light or truth, or whatever you wish to call it, but in fact it seems you're simply attempting to spread born again dogma which by its very nature is exclusionary.

I would be more inclined to believe that a just, fair, and loving God puts all of his children in situations to allow them to grow. Perhaps by putting them on a physical plane in a relative world to know and understand concepts like love/hate, warmth/cold, disease/health, happiness/despair, war/peace, and so forth. To learn the lessons necessary to enable His children to move toward a higher plane. I would be more apt to believe that The God recognizes all of his children, no matter how they worship, or whether they do or not. (Remember free will? Was it given merely so mankind can be punished if they make the wrong choices? That seems absurd to me.) And I would also be more apt to believe The One True God would hold no exceptions, nor make special exemptions for any single group of his children. I would further be more inclined to believe that God doesn't care how His children grow, only that they do grow. That we, all of us, have our lessons to learn, and that we chose how to learn them.

These are my beliefs, and they are also my best guesses based on what I've learned through all my years of study, and through my attempts at understanding. But they are only guesses, as I (we) cannot truly know at this point in my (our) existence.

Do I believe everyone on earth who has not accepted Jesus Christ as their personal savior will spend eternity in hell, or be denied a seat at our Father's side? No. Why? Because that would be a ridiculous waste of humanity. And because I believe our Father is not wasteful, nor vindictive, nor segregative, nor hateful. I believe God is Love and Love is all powerful, all forgiving, and all accepting. Do I believe Christ was an avatar, a teacher, and spiritual leader who's teachings have been so corrupted most have no idea what he was actually teaching in the first place? You're damn skippy.

Am I trying to convince you that I'm right and your wrong? No I am not. This is a forum, we're simply two (fallible) people expressing our opinions. You're a grown man. Believe what you will. Just don't pretend to have special insight into the mind of God. I applaud your faith in Him. However, faith by its nature is unprovable, thus, so too is His thinking.

Having stated all that, I wish you peace, love, and enlightenment as you continue your journey.

I know what God is thinking, because the Bible is inerrant, and inspired by God Himself.

I am a Christian, thus I believe in the Bible. There is no reasonable explanation for believing in Jesus Christ, except for the Word of God showing us the way. If I believe in the Word of God, then I believe in its entirety, not just in small pieces I can pick out.

Now some people will now pull out Old Testament statutes and laws as examples of how we fail, but in doing so they expose their own misunderstanding of the Bible.

As far as what God wants from us; He wants us to choose Him. He allows us to decide, but if we do choose Him, He expects us to follow Him.

Many people create their own god, who does what they feel he should do .... but that does not make him God. That's my understanding of things, and it is actually wanted against in the Bible.

But you must admit, when comparing the Old Testament to the New Testament, God really mellowed out after he had a kid.

I don't believe you. But I find it interesting you think you do.



Perhaps inspired, but written by fallible men with agendas and their own set of beliefs.

And yes, I have read it. I find it to be an interesting history with lovely and inspirational life lessons and teachings that we all can learn from.



Again, you think you know what He wants, but you don't really. You may believe you do, but you couldn't possibly. But let's assume you're right. There are many ways to choose Him beyond Christianity. I find it a completely ridiculous notion that God would exclude 2/3 of the planet's population. Especially considering all the loving, faithful, good people within that two thirds.

God thinks it's a hilarious notion that some of the faithful within Christianity (and other religions), believe they have the only key to the gates of Heaven. That somehow, they've gained an exclusive VIP pass by perverting the teachings of one of His servants. God is angry that some of His followers are so elitist and exclusionary.

See, I know what God thinks too.



Exactly. It's only your understanding. Which, by your very human nature, is limited in scope, and potentially faulty.

Peace be with you, my friend.

The bible may be inerrant, but your interpretation of it, however, is not. I find it odd that many Christians are quick to dismiss the Pope in the Catholic church, because no one man can be "infallible" when it comes to understanding God and the lessons taught in the Bible and church. Yet they are so quick to declare their own understanding of the Bible as infallible.

Well I dismiss the Pope because of the terrible pattern of pedophilia in the catholic church and how little they've done to correct it, helped to cover it up and make those responsible be accountable.

Well Cal the entire Christian faith is based is based on Jesus himself telling us he is the only path to salvation.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jesus IS the only path of salvation according to our Scriptures. We are not Jews or Muslims or anything else. We are people who try our best to follow the teaching of Christ himself. Jewish and Muslim faiths deny the salvation that Christ offers them. That is what is divisive.

Your problem is that you think that is wrong. Religions are not all the same or some broad subject you can just brush off and they all mean the same things. They are very different by nature and your being condescending and insulting to each one by thinking they are the same. Telling Christians NOT to believe that Christ is their salvation and just accept the teachings of any old religion is denying them their faith completely.

I have no problems with those who are lost doing their own thing. There will always be more people lost to God than those who are on the right path because the right path is not an easy one. You don't deserve it and you can't earn it. You have to submit to it of your own free will. Those with too much pride in how great they think they are will never understand. They are too full of themselves to let the Holy Spirit have room to enter their heart.

Thus pride comes before a fall.

You do understand there are big differences between Catholicism and Protestants right?

Protestants view the Catholic church as having been corrupted by power hungry priests who place politics and power as too high a priority. They don't view the faith as evil or it's followers as evil. I mean for all our differences we do still believe in the salvation of Christ. Another big difference is that Protestants don't believe you need the forgiveness of the church, the priests, or the Pope but just a simple relationship with God himself.

Catholics believe the Pope if the voice of heaven on earth. They believe once you are lost to sin that you need one of "their" priest to pray for you on their behalf. It's the Church's authority to forgive you. They give you ways to work for and earn your forgiveness based on what a priest decides is your punishment after you confess to him. It's a useful religion for those who love Christ but have trouble forgiving themselves. Thus they have rich patrons who are told if they give greatly to the church God will forgive them. Some people need that act of being punished to feel better.

They are very different religious belief systems but they share that common core belief that salvation was bought my the willing sacrifice of Jesus and the public sign of obedience by becoming baptised.

You shouldn't expect Protestants to have any value of what the Pope says anymore than any other normal person.