DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... The Shroud of Turin

Sorry Razor, you began with a large misconception. Christ's "words" were written by men beginning some 50 years after his death. The "gospels" have been translated from Aramaic and Greek, the sources of the writings attributed to John in particular are in question. The gospels were passed on by word of mouth for anywhere between 5 to 12 decades before they were committed to writing. There very well could be issues with translations, and in particular meaning.

For example your verse of choice, John 14:6 has many, many translations. (Look them up, I won't do that for you.)

One of the issues is the literal taking of the meaning of the words. Christ never said "Only if you believe in me." But rather was speaking of the concepts of love and forgiveness, of peace and joy. He, the Son of God, is Love, not the perverted form of dogmatic religion you hope to proffer here.



If you misinterpret those scriptures, you'll arrive at wrong conclusions. For example, the scriptures are easily interpreted as: Jesus is Love, the path to the Father is through Love, therefore a path to love is through Jesus. But hardly the only path.



Razor, my friend, you may have missed the point of his teachings concerning acceptance.



No, it is the belief one way is better than the other.



Your problem is you think you know what my problems are. You are being judgmental and your statement is incorrect.



I never said they were all the same, and I'm being neither condescending nor insulting. But I believe you are, sadly.

My point was each religion offers a pathway to enlightenment if followed for that purpose. If used to brandish about as some form of superiority, the purpose has obviously been lost on the believer. Perhaps consider that during your quiet time.



I have told no one to do anything. I have merely shared my beliefs, and offered the opportunity to self reflect. What you or anyone does with that is up to the individual.



Clearly you have problems with many things, not least of which is acceptance of other viewpoints. You also seem to be extremely judgmental and pious, likely due to your anger at being unable to foist your beliefs on others. But I forgive you.

(I believe God has a sense of humor.)



The actual scripture is:

Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall. Proverbs 16:18 (KJV)

Interesting you would (attempt to) select that verse, considering the haughty nature of your post.

Peace & Love, my friend.

Yep. How easy is it to only ridicule those that won't put a fatwa out on your arse, and defend those that could.

I was just reading through this.

I wish to force my beliefs on everyone.

Jesus Christ is the only way!

The only way to the Father, and there are no other religions, only false ones.

Cheers.

( If they would not believe Moses and the prophets, they would not believe, even if one should return from the dead.)

Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, bless them which curse you and pray for them which despitefully use you.

My understanding is my understanding, and there are parts of the Bible that are as clear as day. When Jesus, for example, states that He is The Truth, The Way, and The Life, and the NO MAN comes to the Father except through Him ..... well, to me that's rather clear.

I also think that most people have zero idea what the Bible actually says, because they never read it. They imagine that they know, or they rely upon 1 hour snippets of another's understanding, once a week, or once a month, that they might pay 50% attention to, rather than actually taking time to read their Bible, and pray over what they read. The Bible is the most dust covered best seller of all time, because most sit on shelves in peoples' homes, and never even have the cover opened.

You are right in that I don't have a perfect understanding of every part of the Bible, but I have the large themes down pretty well, and I see and learn more each time I read through. I catch new things all the time. I read my Bible every single day, bar none. I have several commentary Bibles, and a "Bible in a year", along with books of prayers, Bible verses with subject commentary, and so forth. After reading through the Bible 7 times, reading it every single day, and praying for God's guidance, I suspect I have a pretty good idea of the major themes, and the customs that may have influenced certain sections. I'm not claiming to be perfect, but I do have far superior experience with the Word than most Christians do.

I am curious, what do you think Jesus was talking about when He spoke of the narrow gate and the wide gate? What do you think He was talking about when He said to fish for men, and to go and make disciples of all men? There are statements that are as clear as a bell, if we just open out hearts and minds to them.

The only reason I made my somewhat snarky comment about things some people say is because, inevitably, someone brings up Old Testament Law, and why don't we follow Jewish laws and customs .......

As far as the Pope, well, yes, I have major differences with the Catholic Church, and have even addressed them with Priests throughout the years. None have been able to satisfactorily answer most of them. I'm not going to get into a big Catholic debate, but suffice to say that I will never become a Catholic without major changes to the church. There are major reasons that the church split.

I really don't want to argue .... even though it seems like I am arguing ..... but most of the Bible is pretty darn clear. When the Bible says that sin is death, I believe it. When the Bible says that unrepentant sinners will be cast out of the presence of God at judgement, to suffer the pain and damnation of eternal separation from God, I believe it. These are consistent messages throughout the Bible. I find it hard to believe that any Christian who reads their Bible would, or could, dispute these.

I know you weren't directing your comments to me, but I want to be clear. It's not my intention to seem argumentative either. I would simply ask you to perhaps consider that literal interpretation of Christ's word isn't the only interpretation. That a spiritual interpretation may lead to a greater understanding of actual meaning.

For example, when Jesus says, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." He is referring to choice. We have the choice to love, respect, honor others, be accepting and giving, do good works, and seek spirituality. Without making that choice, we are in essence lost spiritually. He is, after all, the embodiment of these qualities.

Again, when speaking of the gates, he says (according to KJV): "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat." He speaks of a spiritual path, which is difficult, versus an earthly path, which is easy.

When He says, "Come, follow me and I will make you fishers of men." He again is speaking spiritually, that through belief (faith) and example his disciples will be able to show others a spiritual path.

When speaking of death and destruction, consider He may be speaking of spiritual death and destruction, that without spirituality - by living a life rooted in earthly pleasures - there is no ascension. Without a spiritual path, ascension isn't possible. It would be like trying to fly without a plane, or seeing without eyes, you wouldn't have the proper tools.

I'm not attempting to dissuade you from your beliefs or alter your path, or disparage Christ. I am a believer in His Love. And I do understand you are on a path, as we all are. My contention is with the thinking that one way is the only way. The notion itself is divisive and hateful, so I would ask, as a fisher of men, to consider there may be other paths to enlightenment, ascension, heaven, or however you wish to view life after the physical world, to be accepting of that, and to revel in the joy that can bring.

I'll leave you with Romans 14: verses 10-19, and then say no more about it.

10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written: “ ‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.’ ” 12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God. 13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister. 14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean. 15 If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what you know is good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval. 19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification.

Peace and Love, my friend. May your path be blessed.

Moved from the Shroud to Christians, Non-Christians, what bible says- and doesn't say. Ok, I'll put my two cents in.

Love what Gandhi stated, “I’d be a Christian if it were not for the Christians.’ He'd been denied entry to a white, class church in India....opposite of what Christ wants.

Lots of you have studied the Bible for years- which Bible- the KJV isn't the ONLY bible.

I'm a Christian, who works hard a loving everyone- hardest thing I've done is forgive the husband who murdered my sister, but I'm not suppose to judge.

We all use specific verses in "the Bible" for our purposes/goals. The only way,etc,etc.

My bottomline is Jesus Christ is my savior and Lord, he and only he will judge. God is God and we aren't. He can do what he wants to...do I believe other non-Christians will be in heaven. Yes, but I could be wrong. I'm not perfect, nor am I God, he'll figure it out.

Some of the hardest people to love are the ones breaking traffic laws and giving me the finger salute----real bugs me.

Lastly, football is great, especially the Browns, BUT only real important thing is our eternal soul/bodies and our relationship to God.
Peace brothers and sisters.

I completely agree with you! I'm Jewish, and I find it very offensive that Christians really believe that their way is the only right way and the only way to salvation.

It was Jews who taught us this.

Jesus, the Apostles and the first Christians were Jews.

I understand what you are saying, also keep in mind that Jesus Christ was an Orthodox Jew. But it still bothers me that many Christians today think that their way is the only right way.

If you are a religious Jew then you believe the Messiah will come, right?

Well He came and you missed it.

I respect your point of view, but don't believe that the Messiah has come and I missed it. Sorry, don't want to get into an argument here.

I am not looking to argue either, just telling you how we see it.

There is no malice to others in believing Jesus is the Messiah, it is just a fact of life to us.

Many of us believe when He returns, we will say "He's Back!" and the Jews will proclaim "He's Here!".

We will all end up in the same boat at the end so it is best we try to get along.

I can agree with that! We all need to learn to get along.

Yes, He will show us a spiritual path; a path to forgiveness and eternal joy. You go part way there, then somehow, and for some reason, stop. Yes, we help others to find their way to (faith in) Christ. No, that's not where their journey somehow stops.

It would be like me telling you that I am going to show you the way to get to Walt Disney World in Orlando Florida, and leaving you in Jersey. The path is completely different, and doesn't get you where you want to go. Maybe the boardwalk might be nice ..... but it's not Disney World. It's not where you were trying to go. God doesn't show us "a" path. He shows us THE path, which is through Jesus Christ.

I am not sure what point you were trying to make with the verses from Romans, but it says, in no uncertain terms, that we will all stand before God's judgement. Elsewhere, the Bible also tells us that Christ (who is God the Son) will judge the world. As far as the idea that we somehow judge others by sharing what the Bible says, that's like saying that we stand in judgement of a speeding driver when we warn them of the speed limit. Letting someone know what the Bible says on certain subjects is not judging. If I say to you; "You are doing this wrong, and I am going to see that you go to hell!" ... well, that's judging. If I say; "The Bible warns that sin is deadly, and that the only escape from sin's power and the penalty of eternal damnation is through Jesus Christ", that's not judgement. That is simply stating what the Bible says. One is *my* judgement, and the other is the judgement laid out by the Bible. One is *me* trying to apply the law to punish someone, and the other is simply stating what God has laid out as punishment for those who refuse to accept His way.

God is God. If a person believes that, then they also have to accept that God has the right to judge anyone over anything. God doesn't owe us a thing. However, in His mercy, He has shown us the way to salvation and eternal life through Jesus Christ. If we choose not to accept, He allows us to do so ..... but he doesn't then just say that He somehow didn't mean what He said. We are perfectly free to choose life, or death. We can choose an eternity of joy with God, or we can choose damnation. God has laid out the roadmap, and has shown us the way. We just have to choose to follow it.

I can agree with that! We all need to learn to get along. [/quote]

God Bless you and yours sk8termom.

Yes, and I imagine it is very hurtful as well.

One of the things I find interesting is that Jesus, through His teachings worked very hard to impart wisdom, acceptance, humility, grace, and love to his disciples. Beyond that, He was trying to guide his followers along a spiritual path to enlightenment. Everything he said was in reference to his teachings, vis-à-vis those concepts specifically, a few very simple notions anyone can understand. He very much was not teaching close-minded, exclusionary belief in a religion that hadn't been invented yet. Christ was not a church, he was not a religion, he was, at minimum, an enlightened man shedding light on a cruel world during extremely cruel times. Here we are 2000 years later living in a world filled with hate, judgment, corruption, discord, and anger, with religions being weaponized by a few misguided followers to demean, diminish, exclude and even kill for the sake of righteousness. It would be funny if it weren't so sad, pathetic, and harmful. It's ironic that perversions of His teachings become roadblocks to the path His lessons were meant to illuminate.

I would say it seems you'd like to get to Disneyland but choose to stop in New Jersey.

If the meaning of the Romans verses aren't readily apparent, perhaps read them again.

I believe we've taken our discussion as far as we can. If you believe you are on THE path, I am happy for you. If you believe it is the only path, I disagree with you, but respect your right to believe it. I know you're a good person, on a journey. That's good enough for me.

I sincerely wish you peace, love, good health, happiness & prosperity.

Wow dude. Speechless. The most dumbfounding thing about "religion" is people finding the most creative ways to ignore the path of Jesus. We trust others to interpret and define, and ignore the basic path in a way that suites our needs. It's tragic.

You nailed it, and of all the things we can argue under the roof of "religion", nobody can argue the sad reality of what you just stated.

And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”
— Matthew 22:35-40

And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, “Which commandment is the most important of all?” Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”
— Mark 12:28-31

And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How do you read it?” And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” And he said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live.
— Luke 10:25-28

When he had gone out, Jesus said, “Now is the Son of Man glorified, and God is glorified in him. If God is glorified in him, God will also glorify him in himself, and glorify him at once. Little children, yet a little while I am with you. You will seek me, and just as I said to the Jews, so now I also say to you, ‘Where I am going you cannot come.' A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
— John 13:31-35


As for me folks I love ya all and pray that all of us will be forgiven as not a single one of us deserves to go to heaven.

I would say to you, every single one of us deserves heaven.

Love you too, brother. Peace and good health!

We disagree on that one bro, as I believe not a single one of us deserves to go but it is only by the grace of God that some will, BUT none of us will know while we are still alive.

Love ya to brother.

Perhaps my meaning would be better stated by saying we all deserve the opportunity. Hope you're feeling well these days, my friend.

We don't deserve a thing, but we DO have the opportunity, and that opportunity is through Jesus Christ and his atoning sacrifice on the cross. All it takes is faith, and repentance of sins. People want to over-complicate things, but it really is just that simple.

Unfortunately, as Jesus explained to his disciples:

Matthew 13: 10-15

The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”

11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables:

“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’

I just grabbed my backside. Feels pretty good to me

But yes we all deserve the oppertunity. I do not deserve to go to heaven any more than Ted Bundy does. BUT I pray that I make it in

It's ok if your offended by my beliefs. At least you accept that they are different and not the same.

My Bible teaches me that Jesus is the Messiah. If I don't believe that then I am not a Christian. Period.

As a Jew who doesn't believe Christ was the Messiah then of course you would be offended because you're waiting for someone else to come along and be your Messiah.

One of us is right and one of us is wrong. You can't get around that point. To do so would be to deny our faith and what we believe to it's very core.

That doesn't mean either of us is evil or that we should treat each other poorly. It just means we should accept our religions are different.

It's not a Christian's duty to be liked. It's to be truthful especially to the Word of God.


John 15:19
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

There is this idea that we should all accept what everyone says and give into it to just get along. I think telling people to forget what makes them different and not accepting that they are different is a kind of passive violence because you are not accepting them as they are but as you wish they would be. It never works because it only leads to a deeper hatred and being forced to reject your true self to make others happy.

Instead just accept that those of different religions don't see the world the same way you do and that they never will. By accepting them as they truly are instead of how you want them to be you can finally have mutual respect and understanding while being in complete disagreement.

I am a Christian. That means I accept Christ as my lord and savior and that I believe the only way to enter Heaven is through him. If I don't believe that then I am not a Christian because that is the very definition of what being a Christian is all about.

If that offends you it means my very existence offends you because I am what I am because of my belief in Christ. I'm not going to lie to you to make you feel better or accept me through a lie.

I don't get offended that you don't believe in Christ. I get offended when you say I should abandon what my Bible teaches me just because it makes you uncomfortable. Just accept that my beliefs are different than yours. I believe I am right and you believe your right. Don't waste energy being offended and just let God sort it out in the end. Of course the caveat to that is that if I'm right then you might be in trouble. If your right, well I have still be following God all this time so I should be fine.

Either way, I don't hate any of you just because you have a different belief. It just means we believe differently.

You either believe that the Bible is the word of God or you don't. I can't help you believe in things you don't want to trust. That is between you and God. Never the less, I do believe in the Bible and take it for what it says in good faith.

I might be off since this is just my impression of you from your responses but you very much give me the impression of a former Christian who has gone through something and it shook your faith to the point you started looking for reasons for the Bible to be wrong so that you could justify being angry at God about it. Then to make life easier you started rubbing out and dismissing the parts of it you didn't like and found inconvenient and not resort to a type of spiritualism where you seek to find the common grounds of multiple religions to fill in the parts you didn't like from your previous faith. That way you can come up with a happy medium that you think is what God must have truly meant but just got warped by simple minded men. They weren't evil men in your eyes but just misguided. Therefore your totally justified in throwing out parts of the scripture you just don't like and ignoring what makes parts of it unpleasant to you and to others. I've seen that happen with plenty of people but maybe I'm wrong about you. If so then I apologize.

I'm not angry when other don't believe like I do. I know it's very hard to understand tone from text but I honestly don't have any anger at all about it.

I do believe my Bible though. I have trust in it. Accepting the forgives from Jesus IS the only path to salvation if your a Christian.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 14:6
"I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me"

John 10:28
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

I mean I don't see where Jesus could possibly be more clear on the matter. You either believe him or you don't. I believe him which is why I call myself a Christian. This upsets people who are not Christian but it is what it is. Asking me not to believe in the teachings of Christ is asking me to stop being a Christian. I chose Christ.

I believe it's possible many things in the Bible are inspired by God. I also believe many things in the Bible are colored by the men writing the books in the Bible. I know we won't agree on this, and that's okay.



Correct.



As is your right.



Yeah, that's not the case at all. I was raised Lutheran, was baptized, and do have a background in Christianity. Nothing earth-shattering happened in my life to shake my faith, or turn me against Christianity, and I don't search for reasons for the Bible to be wrong. In fact, I very much enjoyed reading it cover to cover, and enjoy many of its insights and teachings when I consult it.

Also, I've maintained a very strong and personal connection with God since I was a small child. This relationship predates my Christian teachings and has stayed with me my entire life. (He and I have had our issues, but I've never lost my faith in Him.) When I felt abandoned at certain points in my life, I discovered it was me who had turned away (for whatever reason).

I discovered over time that Christianity didn't hold all the answers for me, and that the "My religion is better than yours" - propagated by men and women, even within Christianity itself ie; Catholicism -vs- Lutheranism -vs- Methodist -vs- Orthodoxy, and so on and so forth - was basic nonsense perpetuated through misguided interpretation.

Within my personal version of faith, I outgrew that simplistic, divisive, Sunday school version of any type of dogmatic teachings that state "Our way is the only way." The more I saw of the world, the more I found this to be true. I don't expect you to accept this, you are incapable based on what you're telling me regarding your faith, I merely state it to set the record straight. I applaud and have love for Christ, and Christians, and respect the faith. As I do for other faiths. So, please understand, my issue isn't with Christianity per se; the religion, and all religions, as institutions are innocent of the perversions of faith perpetuated by man. Again, I don't expect you to accept or understand this, it's simply my view.



Good. I believe you.



That's good too, and I am genuinely happy for you.



I will not dispute that, as this is probably the best way I have seen the notion stated because it leaves open the idea that other faiths have their path as well.



I don't have an issue with the verses or the message, and I do believe Christ, the Son of God and son of man, as God, and the Holy Spirit died, was crucified and rose again to offer a way to redemption and forgiveness beyond the Old Testament way of strictly following the commandments or offering sacrifice. My issue is with the often misinterpretations of their meanings.

Now, I'm not going to try to convince you of anything, so please don't take it that way. I'm simply offering something to think about. Consider this possible interpretation: God gave His Son, who is God, so that those who believe in Him (God) shall have everlasting life.

It's very simple really. God manifested himself on earth so you could see by example who He is, how He acts, and learn what He expects. Through His examples of love, acceptance, repentance, and forgiveness He was showing His disciples, followers, and the world the path: If you find God, you find grace.

He never once says "The only way is through Christianity or through the Christian Church. He says the way is through Him (God), at the time he was speaking it was through His embodiment in Christ. If you believe in the Holy Trinity, they are all one. So, in effect, they way isn't through Christ the man, or through Christianity the religion, but through God the Father no matter what the religion or path you take to find Him.

Many of the lessons about finding Him are through the rejection of the physical and the acceptance of the spiritual. These lessons are repeated over and over and over in verses like:

"Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride in possessions—is not from the Father but is from the world. And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever." - 1 John 2:15-17

"But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death." - James 1:14-15

“No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money." - Matthew 6:24

"You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God." - James 4:4

And so on and so forth. There are around a hundred verses dedicated to this principle alone. Think he's trying to tell us something? The lesson is simple. Take a spiritual path, find God, be safe. Don't lock your love and spirit up in the physical; money, sex, drugs, pride, politics, false judgement, hate, prejudice, and so forth. The beauty is, as one takes on a more spiritual path, those other things are harder to love. (It's quite lovely how that works.)



Again interpreted as: God is the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to God but through God.

Makes perfect sense to me.



Meaning: And God gives unto them eternal life and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of God's hand.



I agree. Yet so many get it wrong, trying to exclude 2/3 of the world population. Does that make sense to you coming from your loving God?



I believe I've made it clear where my beliefs lie.



You are free to call yourself whatever you want.



I have never asked that, nor would I. You simply misunderstand my intent. For that, I apologize. The fault is mine, as I have failed to be clear.

Thanks for the conversation, Razor. I found it most enjoyable and uplifting. I wish you all the best, and wish you a wonderful and peaceful journey as you continue on your path.

I have to say that it does seem odd that an all knowing, all loving God has decided that if your heart is right, your intentions are good and you simply chose the wrong religion in his eyes, that you'll burn in hell forever.

Person; "But God, I followed a teaching that my human mind and heart thought were right. I was good to everyone and helped those less fortunate than myself. I was a good father and husband. Doesn't that count for anything? Had I have known that religion X was the right one, I would have belonged to that religion."

God; "Too bad. You made the wrong choice. Now burn in hell forever."

Yeah, I'm not buying that. There's a second resurrection for a reason.

I dont believe in Hell. Or Satan.

The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist.

YES, I wasn't trying to denounce anyone posting this Shroud mystery. I'm asking non-believers to check the Shroud out-
How does it exist, how does it match perfectly the Gospel narrative....my take is Jews, Muslims, atheists, etc- have nothing like this----it can't exist but does. Jesus Christ came to world to do his father's bidding, gave his life to reconcile the world to father ONCE forever.

Why does it exist, he's giving all us a chance to find him.

He is love, everything....God bless all of you.

IF you go to the Shroud site, and watch one thing, find the professional photographer- a Jew, and check out what he's been doing since his experience photographing the Shroud.
Peace.

It has to be some great work there. A rarity!

Shroud of Turin Used to Create 3D Copy of Jesus...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4RBXVs70_g

Religion is the work of narrow-minded men and not the voice of God.

I wouldn't label them as narrow-minded. They simply seek meaning in their lives. Being happy in the fact I don't believe there is a meaning to my life, if there was I'd question how an omnipotent being could screw up this badly.

So, you believe in Big Bang theory/ or some such...you believe our earth, and its atmosphere- which if it's off couple percentage points in mix of gases wouldn't sustain the abundant life on it, you believe NOTHING specific caused your trillions of cells to come together and form YOU. That's all random. You're one of those who look at Shroud and dismiss it because the cotton fibers were from 15th century....yet dismiss the ONLY three denominational photo to exist...the flora matches exactly the path of Shroud thru history and is mainly made of stuff that exists ONLY near Jerusalem. The scourge makes are consistent with biblical accounts, blood exists from a scourged man, and its identical to head covering in Spain.
JMHO, God allowed his son to die ONCE to reconcile the world to him again. Read up on the miracles from Lourdes....this is all a hoax...you live and die and nothing else matters. I suggest you do some additional heart searching. Man didn't invent religion- God chose to make man and Jesus Christ will judge each person's heart. Many so called religious people have already condemned any non-Christian. I'm not one of them. God, Jesus judges, and he knows all and will make a just decision. Hope all find true peace. All the best.

There are no atheists in foxholes

Wow, what a bump.

The shroud is still pseudoscience.

LOL...that be the truth, pal, that be the truth.

Especially when things are blowing up around you.