DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The Browns got better when they learned to behave, economically speaking

That's how I feel: thought he deserved a third season, it didn't work out and subsequent events told me he probably wasn't up to it.
I don't wish him ill will.

J/C - Well that was 10 minutes I won't get back.....refs should just lock these threads as soon as they start sprouting arms and legs. The thread started with a really good piece then just went downhill. Just MHO because it deters folk from wanting to post. I know I avoid certain threads because of it. I'm not siding with anyone. This is the football forum. Smack goes elsewhere, I believe.

EDIT: I acknowledge the irony in my non-football post.

I feel the same way. Sorry if I irritated you. That wasn't my intent, though reading back I can see this morning how it probably did.

When I get in these moods it's best to take a time out. I'll come back for any big news and some of the draft build up, but in this dead season it's probably best to leave because as we can see, thread after thread, it usually turns south after a few pages. It's to easy to get caught in the muck. The football talk turns in to political talk, even if the political talk is about Browns politics.

Later

What you don't see is that you always used Sashi to defend Hue, now until you stop doing that and acknowledge that Hue was the worst HC on the NFL history on his own merit, all your excuses are going to be that, just excuses.

And off course all the guys who were here defending Hue and insulting all others who were able to see the OBVIOUS, want this threads closed, and probably all their posts erased. I would be ashamed also if I ever stated that Hue was a great coach...

Once again, this thread was started to discuss DePodesta and analytics on this team. You, Pit, and Diam deliberately turned it into a Sashi debate (which is fine, clearly I'll have that). The very same morning this thread was started, Diam went on some single-malt diatribe about Sashi before anyone brought him up. Pit then followed along because, well, that's what Pit does well....follow. Then on a topic unrelated to the Browns (the Dolphins' hire) you bring up Sashi Brown.

First, look at yourself and then go PM to your two beerholders about bringing up Sashi before you knock anyone else.

What did I miss? Sorry I'm late fellas. As a devout devotee I set aside a little bit of my morning for praise and worship of Sashi Brown. On Friday nights I engage in a little self flagellation as well to atone for all the times I may have felt an inkling of doubt.

St. Sashi Brown of Berea, Martyr of Clevelandom, was sacrificed so that some of us can glimpse the Reclamation of Proud Browns football before we die, and so that the younger generation who have only known suffering all their lives can be Rewarded and Vindicated.

And yes, he did it for you unbelievers as well.

Of course Sashi will not appear again in the NFL. He has fulfilled his Destiny. He TRANSCENDS!!. For what an empty existence were he to return with us mere mortals.

These are my convictions. These are my beliefs. Woe to those who challenge my Faith without being dually armed in theirs.



*cough cough* Devil wonders if the incense was a bit much.... *cough cough*

Once again you jump in the middle of something just to try to start crap with me. Hey, you're the one claiming a third string RB should be paid almost 3 mil. and then you have the gal to put down things I say?

Get a grip.

Sashi was good at tearing things apart. Any demolition crew can do that. What they can't do is engineer, design and build a new structure.

No, but they do maximize their resources to produce more capital. Getting a pick for taking on Osweiler's deal, unheard of in the NFL prior to Sashi. It's a big basketball move, so it's not like he created any new way, but he did introduce it into football. We've had rebuilds in the past, and none of them were able to acquire the draft capital that Sashi did. And obviously he didn't plan it to go so well, like netting the 4th pick in the NFL draft from the Texans. But he did manage to get a lot more resources than the people who preceded him.

I also think guys like Farmer and Heckert, to an extent, were far more cruel in their rebuild, because they actually had talent. They used an excuse of not having a QB, to buy more time, and then destroying great teams, in an attempt to buy more time to find a QB. I'm glad that Sashi stayed the course, avoided taking a QB and instead rounded out our talent on the skill positions. It shouldn't be a controversial take that inspires pages of bickering and pot shots.

So you're glad that Sashi used the exact same method you're hanging on the necks of Heckert and Farmer of not drafting a QB? Sashi let a lot of talent go too. I often don't blame the GM or "acting GM" as being at fault for all the players that leave. I'm not going to blame Sashi for it either. A lot of times teams are willing to overpay for players and I don't see it as being smart to get into a bidding war for every player just to keep them on the roster.

But for anyone claiming he didn't tear down the talent we had rather than build on it I believe is seriously misguided.

Maybe that was a part of the plan. If tearing a team down and making it devoid of overall talent was his goal, he certainly accomplished it.

Once again, you are making things up. I didn't make this about Sashi right away. I made a comment about us "exploiting" Philly.

And I think most people who are aware of your constant agenda knew exactly why you started this thread. You do it on almost every thread.

No, they did not employ the same exact method. For one, Sashi traded down at a higher rate than Farmer or Heckert. Farmer drafted back ups in the first round, Heckert bent to Holmgren, but could nail 95% of his picks. Banner and Lombardi also did stupid things. Heckert got the worst deal out of all of them. Also the plan was completely different during Lombardi, Farmer and Heckert then it was with Sashi. The other guys had major talent around the team, but couldn't find a QB to save their jobs. Hell, we had the best line in football, and could've retained them. We had a great secondary. And what do we have to show for it? Nothing. Sashi got one pro bowler, a few picks and laid the foundation for a guy like John to do a wonderful job. And I think he has done a great job at completely turning our team around.

So you're saying without finding and hiring the right person, (Dorsey) to use all of the resources at our disposal, we'd still have nothing?

If so I certainly agree.

And you do realize that a year AFTER Dorsey was hired, we once again have 10 picks in the draft, right? Seems like it must not be as difficult to do as some seem to indicate it is.

How many extra in the first and second round? Or even the third?

I believe the answer is one.

Referencing the total number of picks in a draft is nice but if they're more towards the back-end than the beginning, well.....I think you get the point.

The point you fail to address is that Dorsey can trade those picks for actual players as he's done in the past. Not waste them on overvalued draft picks that don't pan out.

And I'm not suggesting punting first-rounders each year. Based on the timeline of a plan, the players you like, what's available, and the trades offered dictates a lot of things.

But again, saying we have 10 picks this year means nothing when comparing to the extra picks we had in past years. And even before the last regime, as well. It's night and day.

Early round picks are overvalued?? Ok.

Good thing we didn't get Ward, Chubb, Peppers, Njoku as a result of those extra, overvalued draft picks.

You may wish to see what he turns those picks into before we open this can of worms. I'm more concerned about the results gained by the picks than the picks themselves.

Likely neither of you are 'cute', so let's stick to football...

Name one NFL team that pays a RB whose third on the depth chart 3 mil. I know, you can't.

In fairness, name one NFL team that has a Duke Johnson as their #3.

In 2020, we will have Nick Chubb at a salary of $1.2M. If we RFA tag Hunt, that's about $4 million. With Duke at $3 million, that's about $8 million combined in our RB room. That's doable, especially with Baker still on his rookie deal.

The 2019 cap is expected to be $187+ million. 2020 will almost certainly be higher. It makes no sense to deplete depth, unless we get a great deal. (or unless they really like Hilliard, or another RB they add in the meantime)

It's great to have options at the position, and players who can run, catch, and block.

For clarification, Duke will have a cap hit of $4.85M in 2020, but your overall point remains that the salaries are manageable in 2020.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cleveland-browns/duke-johnson-16801/

Yet let's look at it for real here. Even John Dorsey wouldn't commit to Duke.

John Dorsey: Duke Johnson not expendable “yet”

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/02/11/john-dorsey-says-duke-johnson-not-expendable-yet/

Then we can look at the fact that Freddie used Duke even less than Duke was being used before. And that was without Hunt on the roster. How much less will Duke be used when Hunt is active? Duke was signed to his contract as the secondary RB. With Hunt here he will no longer be the secondary RB, he will be option #3.

Between hunt at 4 mil, add in Chubb and Duke at 4.85, that will be over 9mil at the RB position. I don't see paying option #3 at the position even more than Hunt who is a much better RB and a better pass catcher.

You would be paying option #3 at the RB position more than one of your feature backs. I see nothing realistic about that.

I said the salaries would be manageable.

I was simply giving my reasoning as to why I don't think it would be practical. You can manage it, but who pays the third option at a position more than those who play ahead of them?

I think Dorsey said it best when he said, Duke Johnson not expendable “yet”.

We'll have to see how things transpire with Hunt.

I think Hunt would be the one to go, not Duke. Either way it's a moot point since it won't happen until 2019. If Hunt is suspended, it looks to be a 10 game suspension, 8 game suspension or a 5 game suspension (with 5 games last year being part of 5 served). The problem is that the NFL trade deadline is in week 8. So, the chances that we'll have Hunt in time to trade Duke are slim. What remains to be seen is what will Hunt will command in restricted free agency and how we'll use Duke Johnson. Paying a backup RB 4 mil is stupid, but not bad for a WR who part time plays RB. Maybe teams won't be stigmatized by Hunt since he signed in Cleveland and is getting the majority of the blowback.

I don't think anyone is leaving this year. Hunt is cheap and there's no reason to push the envelope.

But Dorsey has direct ties to Hunt from drafting him and signed him to the Browns roster. I have no doubt he'll try to sign Hunt long term. Going into 2020 Duke will be on the last year of his contract. With 4.8 mil due to him, you can get an upgrade in Hunt on a long term deal.

Who knows whether we'll be able to keep Hunt or not. But one thing you can be sure of, Dorsey likes him, Dorsey drafted him and Dorsey will try to keep him.

I find it crazy that people refuse to give any credit to Sashi for building a strong foundation on to which a good team could be built.

It was stated that the first 2 years would be hard on the fan base. That we would cut salary and accrue draft capital. THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED.


Were the Browns fortunate to land Dorsey? Damn right they were.
But if anyone thinks Sashi's departure and the availability of Dorsey were independent of each other, I think you are wrong.

I can not believe Haslem saw how important somebody like John Dorsey would be to this franchise. I have a feeling somebody in the inner NFL highly pushed for Haslem to reach for Dorsey. Luckily for us there was a mutual interest. BUt…. if somebody thinks for a second that Dorsey would take over the reigns of this franchise without the draft capital and the unprecedented cap space that Sashi left him is not being fair to say the least.

In order for this ball to get rolling to where we are now a lot of things had to happen.
1. The Browns losing. This resulted in top draft placement where great talent could be drafted.

2. Trading down to accumulate draft picks. Wentz, Watson to name a couple of players we passed with the future in mind.

3. Cap space. ability to sign Landry after acquiring him. Signing Bitonio, Collins, Shoebert and hopefully some of our own FA's this off season.

4. Dorsey capitalizing on the Draft capital and having one of the better drafts ever.
This resulted in having a good Head Coach & a franchise QB. I think we finally got them.
Hue Jackson just could not get it done. He proved to be a bigger issue and it was obvious by the way the team performed after the change.

Good things are happening for the Browns. 1-32 was very hard on this fan base. But we should all be able to look at the facts and the results and understand Sashi was a key component in laying the foundation of this team.
He missed on some picks, absolutely. I believe he is not in the same league as far as talent scouting goes compared to Dorsey. But he did draft Shoebert, Higgins, Garrett, Njoku, Peppers, Ogujobi, & Kizer (who resulted in the acquisition of Randall).

Although the book is still out on Njoku & Peppers They showed they can be play makers in this league and that although they were reaches with where they were drafted they might end up being great picks when it is all said and done.

Because the Browns lost during Sahi's tenure and he is not in the leaqgue currently. One can not say Sashi's time with the Browns was a failure. It was a necessity to be played out the way it was designed. We should also be thankful Hue was as bad as he was because we may have missed out on some cant miss talent had we won 2-5 more games in those two years.
Go Browns!!!!!!!!

I think last year might be a poor assessment of what Kitchens would do with Duke. He may have used Duke less, but he seemed to increase his snap counts as his tenure aged...

Duke's snap counts under Kitchens:

Game #9: 35
Game #10: 17
Game #11: 18
Game #12: 20
Game #13: 18
Game #14: 26
Game #15: 32
Game #16: 37


Avg snap counts Pre-Kitchens: 31
Avg snap counts w/Kitchens: 25

Not that large of a disparity. Compare to 2017 season with Hue and his snap counts were 35 on avg per game.

It's entirely plausible that it was Haley's playbook used all season and Duke's usage could be attributed to Haley rather than Kitchens...

And having a player like Hunt will only reduce it further. Most likely much further.

I think the most interesting thing this off-season is how will the playbook change. Monken likes to air it out, deep and on the outside, Freddie seems like he prefers a balanced attack, and I'm not talking Mike Leach's "balance". Our strongest position is RB. And Hue and Haley left a lot to be desired for in both play calling and play design. I'm hoping for a few 3 rb sets, myself, but I can't wait to see it.

He's averaging 5.4 touches per game.