DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum NBA Continued

I'm watching the Lakers and musing about LeBron, MJ, Kobe, etc.

I know that LeBron is catching a lot of grief from the Millenials because he gets on his guys and thinks he is better than other players. What about Kobe? What about MJ? Were they great teammates? LMAO

They were far worse than LeBron when it comes to being selfish, demanding, and critical of their teammates.

Shaq recently said that LeBron's teammates are being asked to do what the hell they are supposed to do by LeBron.

The problem is that this new generation is so freaking emotionally soft that they can't deal w/criticism. The Lakers are soft. LeBron is not.

j/c...

Rajon Rondo hates his team (reminds me of Dwayne Bowe during the National Anthem).

Lakers are a disaster.....

LeBron better give us Space Jam 2 and an album for missing the playoffs like this.

I'm wondering if he did us a favor. The Cavs have a chance to rebuild and go young again. While the Lakers are on the hook for $35-$40M a year to not reach the playoffs.

I can't even blame Lebron, as Magic and company really did him no favors in creating the team around him. It's like they expected the rest of the league to just cave to them and give them lopsided trades for superstars ... and had no plan B.

I also think they expected other superstars to come running to LA to play with Lebron, and that just didn't happen.

Yes, we absolutely needed the time apart. It'll be so fun watching him play with Zion in a few years in the wine and gold.

Yet. Give them an offseason first.

It's year one, but I didn't make the thread to start another bashing of LeBron. I was in fact defending him. People are getting on his case because he has been upset w/some of his teammates. MJ, Kobe, Bird, etc were much harsher on their teammates than LBJ has been.

They're too damn sensitive. He is the great one. They are not. I think players should know their roles on the court.

I think LeBron is the second greatest player of all-time.

I think having LeBron on your team comes with a lot of good.

I think having LeBron on your team comes with some bad too.

I heard a great description of a LeBron team...you don't play with LeBron, you play for him.

Watching the Lakers this is evident. Watching the Lakers is painful. LeBron is such a force of nature that you have to run his offense. His offense is a slow, methodical, plodding offense where he expects the rest of the team to move without the ball, set screens, and cut to the basket with all of that designed to get LeBron an assist by hitting a cutter or shooter while he stands at the top of the key dribbling and waiting for this to all unfold. And if he feels like it, he might play some defense, but at this stage of his career his defense is poor. Smaller, quicker players are starting to seek LeBron out on switches so they can go by him rather easily.

You have some young guys that play hard that need a veteran presence to set the right example. I don't think LeBron is doing that. At least not by his words to the media. I don't think the rest of the team enjoys playing with LeBron.

This will be the biggest off-season for LA in 10 years. Without another type A joining the team, you might see a repeat of this year next year as well. LA fans will be screaming to trade LeBron at that point.

still won't happen. If i'm a superstar, and I want to play in LA..I'm playing for the Clips right now. Lebron just creates a bad environment. His effort this year on defense has been nothing short of comical. He's needing more of these "pockets" of rest during the game. He kills any offense you try to run. With that team, they should be running teams. Not this half court garbage. If you're going to run that, you better have shooters for lebron to kick to, he has none. Then you basically publicly try to trade 3/4 of the team. This team will be blown up and rebuilt this offseason.

Lebron is on the Mount Rushmore of NBA greats, I don't think that's up for debate, unless your first name is Skip (...who I don't mind, he's just an MJ honk and he tends to chop other stars down to keep MJ as a god-like figure).

Anyway, passing MJ is amazing. Sure it's in year 16 and MJ only played 15 years, but Lebron isn't a bulk-scoring SG either. His assist and rebounds numbers are through the roof, meaning, he's doing a lot more on the court than MJ ever did. Maybe that's unfair to say it that way, being a SG versus the point forward, their roles on the court are different and of course, their skill set is different too.

Each player from the past has blemishes on their resume too. MJ couldn't get the Wizards to the playoffs, he had to take a 2-year vacation because of gamblin...baseball and he also lost a lot more in the early rounds of the playoffs than Lebron. As for Kobe, he missed the playoffs the year after he forced Shaq out of LA and followed it up with two first round exits until they gave him all the pieces (that Pau trade is still rigged as hell).

Point being, all three were great in their own way. It's easier to compare Kobe and MJ because they played the same position and were shot-heavy ballhogs (I think Kobe was a bigger ballhog).

To beat a dead horse, I still think Lebron made a poor decision going to LA. Houston and Philly were better places to win. By the time LA can put the right team around Lebron, it'll be year 3 and I don't think Lebron will be "Lebron" then.


Right, this could just keep getting worse if Boston somehow gets AD and all the other free agents don't come running to help him. It would mean his 4-year contract in LA would guarantee him to fight for an 8-seed only to get his teeth kicked in the first round. We're really going to see what Lebron's peerw think of playing with him this offseason. Maybe he'd have the same problem had he stayed in Cleveland, but going to a pre-built team like Houston or Philly, he'd be fighting for a title.

It was late and I had some beverages, so I probably wasn't clear. I didn't really make the thread to start another round of bashing/defending LeBron.

Instead, I meant it to be more about today's players. My point is that guys like MJ, Kobe, Bird, etc were way more critical of their teammates and they all demanded a lot from their teammates. No one got on their case for being a bad teammate or selfish.

Players back then knew their roles. Today's players seem more pampered and unwilling to accept secondary roles. People can talk about how bad LeBron is for a team, yet he has won three titles and been to the Finals something like 8 times. LOL......yeah, he ruins teams.

Oh well.........moving on.

AD will go to the Lakers. There's a big reason why the Celtics only have one big FA signing in two decades, and his name is Gordon.

You hit the nail on the head dude.

Great talent sees no reason to play with LeBron. The upside isn't promised, because he can't beat the Warriors. They downside is YOU take the blame when he doesn't. And the whole time you play basketball his way.

Marginal talent can't get the job done. People blame LBJ for the "arms race" in the NBA, but the truth is - that's what it takes to beat him... a superstar alliance.

Now he's sitting in LA waiting for the next superstar to sign on and there's a lot of talk that it simply will not happen. Slim possibility of a championship not worth taking a backseat and being blamed when it doesn't work out.

You must have had several beverages if you think the original intent of a thread has any relevance to where it goes.

You don't become one of the best by wanting to play with the best. You get there from wanting to beat the best. That has always made it hard for him to recruit players. Especially at this point in time where the youngest, most talented guys only know LeBron and Kobe as the best the modern day NBA has to offer. I'm a little bit older than most of them, but as a kid I remember wanting to either be like Mike or to beat Mike, but never did I ever want to play with him. The same could be said with LeBron.

Yeah. Vers, I would have followed along more with your original post but the thread title is "NBA Continued", not "What's wrong with the youth of the NBA today?".

gone are the days of top players wanting to join with Lebron IMO. Davis, Irving, Durant, Leonard, etc will stear clear of LA ... JMO

Your post nails it. Lebron is quite possibly the best player to ever play, but he has some pretty big downside too. We've brought this up for years now.

Playing "for" him is a good way of putting it. I feel like he's always wanted his teams to do the "hard" work during 80% of games. He was all about conserving his energy for times when it really mattered. Ideally, he'd be happy jogging up the court, tossing 10 assists a game to teammates making cuts, scoring an easy 25 points from quick pick and shoot plays, and getting 3 or so highlight dunks when they got a fast break going and he took it out of first gear. I think that's why he's thrown so many coaches under the bus. He doesn't want to run movement sets where he's gassed after a couple of minutes. But he also wants everything run through him, so he can quietly rack up his stats as well. He wants to have his cake and eat it too.

Honestly though, I get it. You can't go 110% all the time. He's saves it for when it matters, and that's why he's been in the Finals so often and looks great doing so. But that's really got to wear thin on his teammates. He wants them to go 100% the rest of the time, so that he can save his own body, and then when hero time comes up, he steps up and takes all the glory. That's why superstars likely don't want to play with him anymore. They're forced to take a backseat when in matters. Sure he'll "allow" them to rack up stats when he's trying to take it easy, but if the game's on the line, he's pushing himself back into the picture.

And now he's getting to the point where age is catching up to him. His only hope is to convince a guy like AD that he really is going let him be the focal point, and he'll be the one to take that backseat. I just don't know that he'll actually do that.

This sort of sums up why I hated the Lebron move to the Lakers. The fans there will never appreciate him:

https://www.latimes.com/sports/lakers/la-sp-lebron-james-lakers-20190306-story.html

On a night when Lakers fans should celebrate LeBron James’ feat, it feels awfully gloomy
By BILL PLASCHKE

On a night when Lakers fans should celebrate LeBron James’ feat, it feels awfully gloomy

They cheered him, but only after booing him.

They stood, but not all of them, and not immediately, and not for long.

He surely heard them, but never acknowledged them.

LeBron James passed Michael Jordan to move into fourth place on the NBA’s all-time scoring list Wednesday night, leaping over the legend in a monumental accomplishment that felt like an enormous dud.

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Epitomizing this embarrassment of a season, the history-rich Lakers couldn’t even enjoy making history.

It wasn’t the franchise’s fault. The Lakers did everything they could to make it a special moment. The NBA wouldn’t let them stop the game immediately, so at the first stoppage of play after James’ layup against the Denver Nuggets with 5 minutes 38 seconds to play in the second quarter gave him 32,294 points — two more than Jordan — an attempted celebration ensued.

The scoreboard displayed a video. Lawrence Tanter boomed an announcement. The timeout gave everyone time to soak it in.

But nobody soaked. Everyone just sort of stared. James sat on the bench with a towel over his eyes, seemingly in tears, three seats between him and anyone else, starkly alone. The fans stood and cheered, but it was mostly politely, and somewhat uncertainly, as if they were applauding an impromptu speech given by a distant uncle at an acquaintance’s wedding.

James was never given the game ball. The fans were never given any indication that James even knew they were there. Once play resumed, any thoughts of the milestone disappeared while a sullen truth was once again revealed.

Even six months into his first season as a Laker, James isn’t yet a Laker. The fans don’t consider him family. His team doesn’t consider him their leader. His lack of physical and emotional investment in the basketball portion of his great Los Angeles adventure is paying the sad dividends of a man who, on the court, appears very much distant and alone.

This truth was obvious Wednesday not only in the weird environment, but on that colorful scoreboard, where nearly all of his highlights were accomplished in the uniforms of the Cleveland Cavaliers and Miami Heat.

His records are not Lakers records. His greatness is not yet Lakers greatness. He may have scored more points than Jordan, but he is going to fail to lead his first Lakers team even into the playoffs, and that’s all that matters to this town.

He has been a big hit in Hollywood, but the Lakers aren’t Hollywood, they are Olympic and Figueroa. Their fan base is not this town’s glitz, they are its heart, and that heart has rarely been more hurting than it has been at the end of a season that began with such optimism and is ending with such gloom.

This night, which concluded with the Lakers losing for the 14th time in 19 games in a 115-99 defeat to the Nuggets, began with fans booing James as he missed four first-quarter free throws. He missed them without a make, equaling the worst free-throwing shooting in one quarter in his career.

The only surprise about the booing was that it was not a surprise. James was individually booed for the first time Monday in a Lakers loss to the Clippers. He surely will be booed again. While his stat line remains strong, his failure to play defense, make free throws and display any sort of leadership has drawn the public’s ire.

It was several years before most fans dared boo Shaquille O’Neal or Kobe Bryant, but they will not cut James the same slack. From his initial decision to forgo an introductory news conference last summer to his Culver City prank pizza tweet to his pregame announcements of movie releases in the middle of playoff pushes, he has never really reached out to the fans, and now they are holding him accountable for the Lakers’ failure.

On probably the most unusual milestone night in Lakers history, so much felt different, so much was lost.

This passing of Jordan should have been another brick in the foundation of a local debate that James is the greatest player ever. Instead, because James scored less than 5% of his points as a Laker, it’s a debate that works better in Cleveland. In fact, considering James’ lack of impact here, it would have made more sense if James had passed Jordan while still in Cleveland.

James is also now, quite reasonably, three more seasons from becoming the league’s all-time leading scorer. But even with this monumental history looming, Lakers fans are focused on a different, more uncomfortable milestone.

At his current rate, James will easily pass Bryant next season for third place on the all-time list — with 32,311 points, he’s 1,332 points behind, and he has averaged 2,042 points in the previous three seasons.

On the night he passes Bryant, if the Lakers are still struggling, can you imagine how conflicted fans will be? If it happens in Staples Center, Bryant would show up and who do you think would get the most cheers? At this rate, James should probably plan on doing it on the road. Interestingly, the NBA allowed the game to be stopped when Bryant passed Jordan in 2014 in Minneapolis.

Maybe the saddest part of Wednesday is that this really meant a lot to James, and he wasn’t able to share it with anybody.

Before the game, he tweeted, “Can’t even front. This is going to be UNREAL!! Wow man.”

Then, before entering the game, he wrote Jordan’s name on his shoes.

After scoring the Jordan-jumping points, James’ feelings were on display when he sat on the bench hiding his eyes in that towel.

“It was very emotional, very emotional, lot of things going on inside me at that point in time,” James said. “At the same time, I didn’t want to show what was going on behind that towel.”

You could hear that same emotion afterward when he talked about modeling his career after Jordan.

“For a kid from Akron, Ohio, that needed inspiration and needed some type of positive influence, MJ was the guy for me,” James said. “I watched him from afar, I wanted to be like MJ. … I wanted people to look at me at some point like MJ. It’s crazy, to be honest, it’s beyond crazy.”

On a night when James’ career point total surpassed Jordan’s, it felt as if Lakers history was made by a visiting player without a team, and that is indeed beyond crazy.

Yeah, my title is misleading. Anyway, I'll have a discussion w/myself. LOL

LeBron is taking a lot of grief for being hard on players, but again, guys like MJ, Kobe, Bird, etc were much harder and more selfish than LeBron. And it isn't even close.

Jordan Clarkson talked about how much more positive LeBron is than Kobe. He talked about how LeBron is more encouraging and Kobe was more about ridiculing you and calling you out.

I think what a lot of people are missing is that the other players have to be willing to sacrifice a lot when they beside a true superstar.

The trouble is that most of the young players have been held on pedestals since they were very young. Both my son and daughter played AAU BB starting at a very young age. These kids get a ton of attention and everyone is telling the top guys how great they are. They come into the league used to being coddled and getting their way.

In order to play well as a team, you need guys who are willing to sacrifice for the betterment of the greater purpose. People hated on TT the last several years, but he served an important function on a team that featured high volume guys like LeBron, Kyrie, and Love.

I'll add a personal example. I could score when I was in high school, but I didn't score much because we had some guys who really needed the ball to be effective and to be happy...if you know what I mean. LOL. I was good w/it because I wanted to win and I really didn't shoot much unless it was towards the end of a close game. It would have been cool to score more, but winning and being a good teammate was more important to me. We had a few other true role players. One guy was kinda slow, but he was a maniac on the boards and played great physical defense. He never freaking shot.

I'm just saying that when you play w/a guy like MJ, Kobe, or LeBron.........you gotta not only know your role, but you best embrace it. We are witnessing the wreck of what is transpiring in LA and until the last couple of nights, we have saw what a mess Boston has been w/the return of Kyrie and to a lesser extent...Gordon Hayward. Not enough basketballs for y'all.

I personally think this is a more complete and objective view at things rather than just putting all the blame on LeBron.

Good article by Bill Plascke.

Joe Posnanski wrote a piece on LeBron and L.A. as well on the night he passed MJ on the scoring list.

LeBron’s golden moments aren’t so golden away from Cleveland

Bullets Forever: “An Ode Dirk Nowitzki.”

Washington Post: “Dirk Nowitzki deserves every cheer even if he’s not certain this is goodbye.”

Dallas Mavericks: “The usually rough Brooklyn crowd showed its soft side in paying tribute to Dirk Nowitzki.”

ESPN: “Obviously awesome.” Dirk Nowitzki, Dwayne Wade Honored.

Houston Chronicle: “Thanks for all those memories, Dirk Nowitzki.”

Fort Worth Star-Telegram: “Kevin Durant salutes Dirk: ‘He was unguardable.’”

So, I’m sure you’ve seen the footage of LeBron James scoring the basket that pushed him past Michael Jordan on the all-time scoring list.

This was supposedly a big deal. In sports, we use moments like this — 3,000 hits, 500 homers, passing John Unitas or Gordie Howe or Michael Jordan on some sort of career list — to celebrate the player and the game and ourselves, especially ourselves, for what we’ve been lucky enough to see. This LeBron-Michael crossroads was a big enough event that my phone alerted me: “LeBron Nears MJ in Points: See if he passes Jordan in career scoring.”

LeBron James has been a pivotal sports figure in my life.

So I checked in.

And it was — I’m not exaggerating here — one of the glummest and most miserable moments I’ve ever seen in sports. He scored the bucket that passed Air Jordan. Nobody cared. NOBODY cared. The L.A. fans didn’t care. The players on the court didn’t care. There wasn’t enough energy in the place to toast bread.

You know what the saddest part of all was? The way the announcer paused to let the sound of the crowd tell the story — the way Vin Scully did after Henry Aaron passed Babe Ruth on the homer list or after Kirk Gibson hit that insane home run in the 1988 World Series — and there was no sound. Just a little muttering. It was quieter than the mall on a Tuesday afternoon.

No, check that: You know what the saddest part of all was? The spotlight. A spotlight raced around the arena in what I can only imagine was an effort to get everyone all excited, but instead, it looked like some kids trying to scare each other with a flashlight under a blanket.

No, check that: You know what the saddest part of all was?

It didn’t have to be this way.

This is not to question LeBron James’ decision to leave Cleveland for Los Angeles. The man has been impossibly great, and he gets to do what he wants to do. He wanted the challenge, the City of Stars lights, the money and fame and legacy that comes with being a Laker. Who among us wouldn’t?

This is only to say that it’s hard for athletes, even the most self-aware athletes, to truly understand that the end is coming … and what that means.

I think about Albert Pujols. He was the best player in baseball for a decade in St. Louis. He was beloved to the point of sainthood. And when it was time for him to cash in for his big contract, well, he was already beginning to decline. I’m sure he didn’t think that — and obviously the Angels didn’t think that — but it was clear to anyone willing to be clear-eyed. He was turning 32 and coming off a fine season but his worst as a major-leaguer. It was going to be downhill.

The Angels offered him the most money, and, again, who among us wouldn’t take the most money.

But now, he plays nightly in front of fans who have no affinity for him whatsoever. He’s never been a great player for the Angels, rarely even been a good one. For the past three years, he’s been a well-below average player. He’s making a fortune, and his team is mediocre-to-bad (even though they have the best player in the game in Mike Trout), and every milestone Pujols hits — 3,000 hits, 500 homers, 600 homers, maybe even 700 homers someday — is celebrated mechanically, without exclamation points.

It would have been so different in St. Louis. He still would have declined, and there would have been those who complained about, no doubt. But there would have been so much good feeling, so many sweet memories …

How many millions is that worth? I’m not saying I know the answer — it’s different for everybody, no doubt. I’m just asking the question.

Above, I listed off a few headlines from the last few weeks about Dallas Mavericks icon Dirk Nowitzki. He hasn’t been much more than a replacement level player in three years, hasn’t been a GREAT player in at least five seasons, maybe seven.

But oh do they love him in Dallas (and, by extension, everywhere else). All the goodwill he built up, all the amazing memories he sparked, all the joy he created, it’s palpable every time Dirk steps on the floor. As my buddy Mike Schur texted me, “Every time Dirk hits a shot, the Dallas media writes 16,000 words about his legacy.”

What is that worth?

You know what that moment of LeBron James passing Michael Jordan would have been like in Cleveland. The roof would have come off. Tears would have spilled. People would have rushed the floor. It would have been one of the most emotional sporting moments of 2019.

And, of course, it wasn’t like that in L.A. Nobody’s blaming the fans or anyone else, this is just the way it is. Why SHOULD any of them care about LeBron James? He’s never done anything for that fan base. They’ve seen him play, obviously, but they’ve never SEEN him, with their hearts, with a championship on the line, with their stomachs fluttering and their prayers in the air. He’s just a great player who took the money, came to town and disappointed everyone.

When he scored the Michael bucket, the Lakers were getting pummeled by Denver 55-39. Why in the world would a Lakers fan cheer that?

Time goes on … and maybe LeBron James doesn’t care that his golden moment wasn’t golden at all. Maybe he still has big plans in L.A., and maybe he’ll achieve them. Maybe he doesn’t want the Dirk Nowitzki love, doesn’t need it, doesn’t care.

But as a fan, as someone who will always feel grateful to LeBron James for bringing Cleveland the first championship of my lifetime, I care.

I feel that, as fans, we would have loved to be there to scream our heads off for him when he passed Michael Jordan. We would have loved to give him that moment the way he gave us so many. I don’t know what that’s worth. But it sure seems to be worth something.

All very true Vers.. to the fans of Cleveland, LeBron is like family.. like the prodigal son who went away for a while but then came home again..

To the fans of the Lakers, he is little more than a hired gun who is supposed to will a subpar team to the playoffs in the stacked western conference.

He could recruit AD and KD and win a championship there in 2 years and the Lakers fans STILL wouldn't have 1/10th the appreciation for him that the Cavs fans do.

It's appalling at how intent some our at hijacking a thread. I clearly admitted that I didn't title this thread correctly, but have tried on several occasions to get it back on topic and a few posters are intent on making this a "trash LeBron" thread.

It's freaking pathetic.

DC, you are a good dude and your intentions are honorable. However, it's Cavs fans who are trashing him on this thread and hijacking it. Not Laker fans. LOL

Who's "trashing" him?? Is nobody allowed to say any negative things about him? You think this is bad, you should hear what actual Laker fans think of him right now.

And sorry that you feel people are hijacking your thread apparently only made to specifically to trash millennial basketball players, by somehow trashing Lebron, who himself, is also a millennial basketball player.

Keep on carrying on the feud that exists only in your mind. Whatever.............have at it. Keep saying the same things you and lead have said hundreds of times. I'm out.

What on earth are you talking about? The fued that exists in my head??

Just stop. I'll leave the thread. You won.

I am totally rooting for OKC in the playoffs. Because Adams is like the NBA version of Khal Drogo.

Does that make Enes Kanter Daenerys?

I dont think so. He's not a white blonde hot chick.

And he fears Lebron teams.



https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2824453

Daenerys fears nobody.

The joke was that like Dany, the head of Enes's country wants him dead. And like Dany did to Khal, Enes left Adams in the middle of nowhere.

Maybe. That only works if Adams becomes brain dead, lets not wish that on him, k?

I didn't know Adams had a brain

But seriously the Kanter/Adams bromance was a great time in NBA history.

The dreaded chicken wing to the grill lol

The 8pm San Diego/Salt Lake game was really pretty good, with a really exciting finish.

With home-court advantage throughout the post-season on the line for Toronto, tonight was sort of a playoff game for the Raptors. So naturally, the Cavs won 126 to 101.