DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns trade Kevin Zeitler for Olivier Vernon

You know you're old when you use the word 'bamboozling'.

I want a QB as well, but not until the 3rd or 4th round. We need to develop a backup to Mayfield...

LOL............you know you're old when you know what it means, you old fart.

KOB has been around for years, it's better to listen to all perspectives.

Some guys are finesse, technique, and some are football player Tough.

Vernon,
Zeitler,
Corbett,

2 are proven one is question mark still.

It is what it is, hope for the best, moving on.

Ty sir ... glad ot hear ... hopefully there mixing in some technique as well ...

Very happy to hear he’s working hard ... gotta love that ...

j/c:

CLE trades G Kevin Zeitler to NYG for DE Olivier Vernon
Browns get: DE Olivier Vernon, 4-132
Giants get: G Kevin Zeitler, 5-155
Browns grade: C
Giants grade: B-

It's difficult to judge this trade in a vacuum, in part because each team made a decision before this swap that I wouldn't necessarily agree with. If you accept that the Browns decided to deal Zeitler and the Giants planned to trade Vernon, this swap makes a lot of sense for both parties. If you question the broader logic, though, I might not be as enthused.

From Cleveland's perspective, general manager John Dorsey has broken up a line that was very impressive during the second half of the season for Baker Mayfield. Zeitler was one of the league's highest-paid guards and had a $12.4 million cap hold for 2019, but he also was an excellent two-way interior lineman who hadn't missed a game in four years. The former Bengals standout did commit a career-high six penalties last season, but ask Cincinnati fans how much they miss the duo of Zeitler and Andrew Whitworth since they left in the spring of 2017. The Bengals' offense has ground to a halt thanks to offensive line woes (and injuries) over the past two seasons.

Now, suddenly, Mayfield's line is a major question mark. Starting left tackle Greg Robinson, whose deal is farther down in this file, has an addiction to holding penalties. The Browns will unquestionably replace Zeitler with 2018 second-rounder Austin Corbett, who played 14 offensive snaps as a rookie. Could Corbett turn out to be a useful player? Of course. Is it worth trading away an excellent guard to find out? It seems like a risky proposition, especially given that the Browns hardly need cap space. The idea of having Corbett as depth for the inevitable offensive line injuries every team deals with during a season seems more appealing than moving an upper-echelon lineman to get him into the lineup.

Cleveland did need to add a second pass-rusher to pair with Myles Garrett, and trading for Vernon allows the former Dolphins standout to move back into a 4-3 base defense under new defensive coordinator Steve Wilks. Vernon hasn't racked up gaudy sack numbers during his career, but his knockdown totals have made him a bit of an analytics darling, including the 36-hit season in 2015 that helped get him a five-year, $85 million deal in free agency.

The 28-year-old Vernon went through a lost half-season in 2018 after suffering a high ankle sprain, which has sunk pass-rushers like Ezekiel Ansah for months at a time in years past. He seemed like an obvious cap casualty at the halfway point of the season, but Vernon played like a superstar over the final six weeks of the season. The new Browns end generated six sacks and 15 knockdowns over the final six weeks, with the latter mark ranking fourth in the NFL in that span.

If Cleveland gets that sort of production out of Vernon, they'll win this deal. I wouldn't quite count on that, but a healthy Vernon will see one-on-one matchups across from Garrett and should be good for a sack every other week, which makes him an above-average edge rusher. He's not really a consistently stout run defender, which could hurt a Browns team that ranked 25th in the league in run defense DVOA last season, but Vernon isn't a liability in that role, either. His arrival also moves Emmanuel Ogbah into a rotational role as the third defensive end, which is probably a better fit for his level of ability. The Browns might rue moving on from Carl Nassib, who looked a lot better in Tampa than he did in Cleveland, but their defensive line will be better once this trade is confirmed.

The issue here, though, is that we're entering an offseason where the draft is full of edge-rushing talent. Even after the franchise tag picked off a handful of talented defensive ends, there are going to be plenty of options available to teams who want to add pass-rushers. Is Vernon at a base salary of $15.5 million better than adding, say, Michael Bennett (who is reportedly on the trade/release block) and Terrell Suggs for the same price? Would the Browns have been better off trading for Justin Houston, who wouldn't have cost anywhere near as much in terms of compensation? I understand wanting to add an edge rusher, and Vernon is a good one, but I'm not sure I would have wanted to trade Zeitler to get one in this market.

It should be no surprise, on the other hand, that Giants GM Dave Gettleman made a move for an offensive lineman. There aren't any plug-and-play starters in free agency at guard besides Rodger Saffold, and if the Giants didn't think they were going to get the Rams standout, pivoting to Zeitler makes a lot of sense. The cap is a far more pressing concern for Big Blue, and Zeitler's $10 million base salary might prevent them from paying a similar amount to former Gettleman draftee Daryl Williams to come play right tackle, but Zeitler fills in a spot that was occupied by Patrick Omameh and Jamon Brown last season.

It's a major upgrade, and while Gettleman's plan to construct a 1970s-era offense around the running game while paying Eli Manning more than 12 percent of his salary cap is brutally flawed, building around a great offensive line is reasonable enough. I'm not sure the Giants get there by adding Zeitler, especially given how badly Nate Solder regressed in New York last season, but they're a much more talented line with Zeitler than without him.

On the other hand, a defense that wasn't exactly crammed with pass-rushing talent just lost its best edge defender. After Vernon, the team's most productive pass-rushers were defensive tackle B.J. Hill and second-year linebacker Lorenzo Carter, who is now penciled in to take over as one of the starting outside linebackers in James Bettcher's defense. The Giants ranked 31st in adjusted sack rate last season, and they just traded away the only thing protecting them from the 32nd-ranked Raiders.

The good news for the Giants is what I mentioned earlier: They should be able to find pass-rushing help, either in free agency or with one of their draft picks. If the Kyler Murray rumors turn out to be true, they could suddenly be in great shape with the sixth pick. The names who keep popping up at the top of the draft include two quarterbacks (Murray and Dwayne Haskins), a dominant defensive tackle (Quinnen Williams), and three edge rushers (Nick Bosa, Josh Allen and Montez Sweat). Todd McShay's most recent mock draft has offensive tackle Jawaan Taylor and edge rusher Rashan Gary coming off of the board at seven and eight after the Giants pick, too.

The Giants need players at all those positions, which means that they should be in a great spot to add their quarterback of the future, an impact defensive lineman or a right tackle at six. They had to trade down one round in the middle of the draft to get this done, which is a slight demerit, but they added a great player at a position of need by giving up a player at a position where there will be options this offseason. It's easier to make sense of their side on this one.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/26152...ing-move#nygcle

If Corbett pans out ... this trade is an A+ + + + + ...

LETS GOOOOOOOooooooooooooo

I am pretty comfortable that this is going to work out fine.

You're correct, but man that's a huge 'if'. How many times have we said this before and it's bit us in the butt?

The funny part is some people act as though we shipped a good G down the river with no plan in place to replace him. Which one sounds more logical to you?

and that Draft is an AAA+++++++++

if Harrison pans out, too, then Dorsey just broke the freaking scale.

What about when Chad Thomas comes in and beats out either Ogunjobi or Richardson?

We reach the point where the streams are getting crossed and the universe implodes.

Oh Diaaaaaaam? We have another Nay-Sayer.

Do your Isle work, Captain.

You say naysayer, but I would call myself cautiously optimistic. Perhaps with emphasis on the cautious.

1 7-8-1 season is not enough to erase all of that doom-and-gloom feeling that has followed the Browns for so long.

I get that we have a plan. I'm just saying that recent history probably points to that plan not coming to fruition, for whatever reason. I'm not saying it won't happen, Dorsey has earned my trust.

Cautiously optimistic.

Oober in 2 years:

"Ok guys, we won the SB, but that doesn't mena they are going to give us the Lombardi. Wait until its in Haslams hands."

I hear you buddy, but man are the starts aligning.

Look around the division, look at our needs vs where the strength of the draft is, etc.

Its time.

What "doom-and-gloom" feeling?

I hear u, Dawg.

Our time is NOW.

EMBRACE THE FUTURE!!!!!

Why be cautiously optimistic and not just optimistic?

Why not allow him to have his own opinion?

Hey oober. I am like you in that I'm not into getting overconfident or bragging....especially before he fact.

I will say that I am more optimistic than in years past because Dorsey really seems to know what he is doing. I didn't care for our last draft. I remember saying I was "disappointed."

Well, Dorsey knocked it out of the park. He has earned a certain measure of trust from me.

IMHO, with all the weapons on this offense and Baker, the Oline will absolutely struggle. Yep, they'll struggle to engage before the ball is out.

Allow??? Does that mean you can't even question somebody else's opinion any more?

Haha, no worries, bud.

I'm coming around. This team and this fanbase are going to be in unfamiliar territory... expectations.
I'm hoping that Corbett can slide in and not hose it up, and I'm hoping we can taste some success early in the season. All these good vibes came really quick, and they can go away just as quick.

Make no mistake. I'm getting excited. I'll take the burden of expectations when it comes to the influx of talent we're seeing. KJ hasn't quite gotten to the point where he's just signing all the biggest names. These guys are young, entering the prime of their careers, and should be set up for success.