DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Njoku/VG/Higgins working with Bake

I don't think a QB needs to work with a "QB guru" to improve what needs to be improved.

Isn't that why we have a QB coach?

It is. The only problem is the CBA agreement strictly limits the time players and coaches can work together. And during the off season, prior to work outs, they can't work with them at all. That's why some teams sign long time veterans as back up QB's when they draft a rookie. Players can spend unlimited time working together. Not so with coaches.

I don't believe it's a make or break thing. Would it be beneficial for a young QB to work on the finer points of his position during the off season? Probably so. I can also see why some would feel it may be just as beneficial to work on timing with your team mates during that same time frame.

Many QBs work w/a coach during the off-season to refine their games. It's much harder to work on mechanics during the course of OTA's, TC, the season, etc.

If you work w/a coach during the off-season, you can isolate certain mechanical aspects of your game. I don't even like the term "guru." It's just a guy who can help you improve your mechanics. Golfers have their own personal swing coaches for the very same reason. Mechanics are very important.

There are stories of Peyton Manning and Tom Brady who were both in their 30s at the time spending their off-season working on their footwork because they were looking for an edge.

I am not making a huge deal out of this, but I think Baker needs to clean some things up w/his footwork when he is facing pressure. The off-season is a great time to accomplish that.

To pit:
I never thought of the CBA aspect, which certainly changes my outlook. Does he actually need a lot of person-to person sessions, can't he be given a program that he can work on without someone overseeing it in person?

Vers, I think any pro athlete should do whatever it takes to keep getting better. And I trust your eye if you say Baker at times would get his mechanics out of whack.

Maybe you said it already, but did he improve in that respect as the season went along?

I'm not going to disagree with you.

My question/comment/wonder is: how do you actually work on things "under pressure?"

I know they do all sorts of things with brooms and bags and balls, but intellectually a player knows they're not going to get crushed by a 270# DE. It's not really the same.

In boxing, they at least have sparring. In football, there is so much "chaos" going on, and the impacts are so violent, I don't know how you can accurately simulate that without risking injury.

Maybe with surround sound (cracking pads, footsteps, etc) and fans/wind machines (sense of movement around the QB) you could stimulate similar visceral responses. I don't know if the additional senses being stimulated would help bypass the intellectual "hurdle" of knowing it wasn't "real."

Never mind, lamp. It seems that no one wants to hear an objective criticism of Baker. Hell, I even make sure I praise him in other areas, but that gets ignored and the excuses are trotted out.

Not sure why talking about something a guy should improve upon is such a bad thing? Whatever.

It isn't a bad thing. I have no issue with anyone pointing out perceived mechanical flaws they see in a QB (even Baker ).

I'm just asking questions, tossing out ideas.

I'm reading this in a vacuum. In other words, I'm pretty sure there is context to this post that I could find earlier in the thread. I'll go look for it after I finish. In the meantime, I wanted to piggyback this, combine it with a post you made in EE (about music and sports being similar)... and make this point.

After a few years of playing on the job, it's important for us to play for others. The daily grind of playing 5-6 days/wk allows sloppy habits to seep in to our base technique. Sitting improperly on the chair. Uneven weight distribution. Arms/torsos/fingers out of alignment.

It's good to drop down in front of an objective observer and get some feedback. It's different than lessons we got as a kid, because we already know most of this stuff. It's more a reinforcement of those old rules that helped us to establish good technique during our 'wonder years.' A 'refresher course in basics' allows us to objectively reassess where we are, and tighten up those parts that loosen over time. Master classes, mock auditions and 'peer coachings' are great for that.

Other public performance-based occupations do this sort of thing all the time.

JUst thought I'd drop that in as a side note.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled broadcast.

I've been quiet, but here's the thing for me... I know Baker isn't perfect. He threw like 14 interceptions, so he obviously has work to do. It is entirely plausible that you are not correct on what he needs to work on and how to go about improving his game.

We also don't know that he isn't working on his game. I'm sure he's not just sitting around playing video games. Baker is one of the hardest working and most driven players I've ever seen on this team. I'm not worried about what he is or isn't doing because I know he's going to do whatever it takes to be the best quarterback this game has ever seen.

That's my opinion. People can disagree and pretend to know what's best for Baker, but frankly...I'm not worried.

and to piggyback on your piggyback.... I've seen this at the top level of lots of things. In many things, efficiency of movement is king. In endurance running, it means quieting muscle groups not needed to run so as to conserve energy, in swimming it is ALL about your form in the water, cycling is all about position on the bike and evenness of your pedal strokes.... details right down to hand and finger position on the aero bars in front of you get scrutinized to maximize aerodynamic efficiency. In CrossFit, a guy might widen his stance by two inches so that he can cycle squats faster, or he might narrow that stance to make the movement more quad-dominant than hamstring because he may be trying to save the hammys for another part of the workout...... in short, the separators at the top, the things that determine who is Good and who is Great, are the small things.

The single biggest mistakes that amateurs make is that they focus too much on those small things with the reasoning of "well, it's good enough for '<insert name here>'", but they don't work on the larger flaws.

One of the biggest mistakes at the top levels is they don't spend enough time looking at those small things because they just blindly keep working on the normal things that got them there.

The Greats will always find, identify, and work to correct any weaknesses.... but, they have the presence of mind to apply the 80/20 rule and not sweat the little things until/unless the bigger things are addressed.

Agree for the most part. And it's so refreshing to finally have one of "the greats" at quarterback. I can't wait!

j/c:

Alright, I'm going to try again because everyone who responded was cool about it and nothing became personal.

I'll start by saying that I think Baker had an outstanding rookie year. He was so much better than I imagined. I saw:

Strengths:

--Accuracy: It was outstanding much of the time. He can hit guys in stride.

--Arm strength: Ball explodes out of his hand. He can fit it into tight windows all over the field. He can throw darts while on the run. Very impressive.

--Footwork: Very good in the pocket when avoiding rushers. At times, has a perfect platform that helps w/his accuracy.

--Pocket presence: Need to see more, but he does a very good job of recognizing where the pressure is coming from and avoiding it.

--Moxie: Has a huge ego that allows him to play w/a swag. He believes he is great and that really helps him on the field.

--Leadership: Guys seem like they believe in him and are quick to defend him.

--Poise: The moment hasn't been too big for him.

--Pre-Snap Reads: Not very good at first, but by the end of the year, he was making some great pre-snap reads. That TD pass against Denver illustrates this point.

Concerns [Things I think he needs to work on:] I'll try to be more detailed here so I don't upset anyone.

Post-snap Reads: Holds the ball too long if his first option is covered. Now, someone suggested that might be that he doesn't want to settle for a shorter pass and is looking to make a big play. I don't know if that is the case or if he just misses seeing open receivers, but I think he needs to improve in this area. I actually hope it's that he is looking for the big play because you can coach him up on that one, whereas teaching a qb to go through his progressions quickly is virtually impossible.

Footwork: This is the one I brought up earlier. As I said, there are many times where his platform is excellent and his accuracy is outstanding. However, we have seen him be inaccurate. The throws are usually high and sometimes high and wide. The throw to Landry at the end of the Rat game [right before the pick by Mosely] is a good example of the inaccurate throws.

I've noticed that there are times when Baker--especially when he is pressured--opens up that left foot too much. That gets him off of his platform and causes the accuracy issues. Both feet should be pointed toward the target in a perfect world. Like many qbs, Baker's issues are that his back foot is positioned properly, but the lead foot opens too far to the left. This hinders hip and lower body rotation and causes you to have to use your arm too much. It affects the release point and this leads to accuracy problems.

I think you need to work w/someone to improve this because they need to see you. Taking videos of the guy while throwing and then having the qb watch them is huge. Hell, I'd love to work w/Baker on this. It gets me excited just thinking about teaching proper mechanics. Of course, I'm joking because there are a lot of great teachers out there. I just miss teaching that stuff.

I think Baker has been taught the proper throwing motion. It's fairly obvious because he does have great form on many throws. It's just something that he needs to be more consistent on. My bottom line is that if you aren't working to get better, you are getting worse because someone else is working their ass off.

--The third thing is maturity. I know that football is a game to most of our readers, but once you are in a position of getting paid.........it's no longer a game. It's a job. A profession. And the first rule of the game is that you never mess w/another man's opportunity to make money. It was very surprising when a couple of Steeler o-linemen called out Bell last year. Those guys took a lot of heat because you never mess w/a man trying to get paid.

I honestly think most of us got it the first time... I know it may not seem like it, but I bet we mostly all did.

He's good, really good, but like everyone on the planet, he can improve certain areas of his game.

Gotcha

I think you have that right. The CBA limits how much time the team's coaches can spend w/him. I really don't like that term "guru," but yeah, that is what they're called.

I love football drills. We had a really good discussion on this board after Kizer was drafted about mechanics and drills. One of the most enjoyable threads ever. I could talk about mechanics and drills all day.

Well I'm not an expert on the subject but I do know that a lot of great QB's have worked with what are called, "QB gurus". And no, I don't like that term either. lol

I believe it's very hard for a QB to analyze himself on a play by play basis. Most bad habits or mistakes in any given situation are based on reflex, habit and muscle memory. Not only do you need someone to identify when you're doing it, but how to take immediate actions to correct it. It's a process you need to be coached at repeating over and over again in given situations in order to "relearn a new habit" if that makes sense.

I'm also one who feels players need time away from the game to decompress. I feel they need to work with their team mates on timing and familiarity. So it's not really a one size fits all.

There's always room for improvement. Honing your skills can never be a bad thing. And while something other than a QB guru working with a QB during the off season may be a workable solution, I haven't seen nor do I know of one.

The biggest value in having a coach/guru is the feedback. They, if they're good, will spot flaws you don't even know you have. What feels like good, normal movement to you may actually be a foot turned too far out, or a knee that turns inward. Maybe release point isn't as high as you think it is and maybe what you feel is too high is actually just about right.

You can get this from video analysis, but that is slow and you have to wait for them to watch what you did, take notes, and then send the report back to you. There is nothing better than in-the-moment instant feedback from someone that is right there; someone that can walk you through a progression or grab your arm and move it into the right spot so you can feel where it should be.

Without that person, yes, there are programs and drills that you can run yourself through - it doesn't matter what the movement is, you can devise a drill for it.... but, without that feedback, you could well just be practicing bad form.

That's the single greatest value of a coach - they can see what you can't because they are focused on watching you while you're focused on doing the work.

That was well-delivered...kudos to you.

I have two comments about that:

Regarding post-snap reads:

Rookie QBs will hesitate because...well...they are rookies;

Rookie QBs...throwing to rookies/new guys etc will surely result in some hesitation with one guy not certain what the other guy will do on-the-fly;

With the number of guys he spreads the ball around-to, he must be - at least - pretty good at post-snap reads.

All that said, it is perfectly logical that he needs to get better in that aspect. Not sure how one practices that...but there is no doubt that is a valid issue/point.

Regarding working on the nuances:

It was stated repeatedly that Baker had trouble playing under center during OTAs. He clearly found a way to work on that and he subsequently had very few issues with that aspect once TC broke. I would expect him to also work on his footwork and foundation to work through those areas as well. On his own or with whomever he wishes.

He's the real deal right now...and my expectation is that the coaches know what he should work on and have made that clear to him...those things logically could be the points you made above.

Even Peyton manning worked with QB gurus. It's always helpful to hone your craft.

I'm the furthest thing from a QB guru, but I would imagine that the more you dial in your throwing/footwork mechanics, the easier it would be to read the field.

I can see how it would be similar to playing hockey. You have to be able to skate, stickhandle, and look around to see where you want to pass/shoot. You can be a good skater, but if you aren't completely comfortable skating, where it's second nature, then your puckhandling and playmaking is hampered. It's because you have to think about how to skate and how to handle the puck at the same time... it's complete mental overload.

Good post. While I don't necessarily agree with everything, I understand some of the concerns.

And muscle memory. Often overlooked. Reps are not merely mental. Practicing wrong can create problems like lazy drop steps on timing. I favor crisp feedback so you don't drill a bad habit waiting to breakdown tape. Not a huge thing, but it is a real thing, especially for QB.

Golf probably has the least wiggle room for slight flaws in mechanics. All those guys have a personal coach.

j/c:

This has turned out to be a good conversation. We all have different opinions on a couple of things, but there haven't been any personal attacks.

I think it's good that we disagree some. It helps people learn. I don't even know if I am right about some of those things. I'm just a dude on a message board.

I think Grimm brought up a good point earlier. He asked me how do you simulate pressure during drills? That is a good question and there is no clear-cut answer. I believe in muscle memory and you can do things like come at guys w/those foam teaching tools, but it obviously isn't the same.

If I were coaching Baker, I would give him one thing to work on each off-season. You don't want to burn a guy out, but sharpening your strengths and improving your weaknesses should always be a goal during the off-season.

Do any of you remember what Michael Jordan used to do? One off-season, he spent the entire time working on his ball handling. He set up chairs and cones and worked on both hands daily. He also did all the ball-handling drills each day.

There is an old saying that we used to preach a lot. The only time "success" comes before "work" is in the dictionary.

Trust me, Baker's severest critic is himself. No QB is working harder to hone his skills and his conditioning harder. And I am confident he has gotten input from "professional" sources, be it Browns staff or otherwise, on areas of improvement.

Where he came up with Jimmy Clausen to prepare him for the combine I have NO idea. Clausen also engineered his Pro Day at OU. I'd have to say the venture was a successful one. https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=jim...E&FORM=VIRE


As for working on pressure, of course QB's are basically "off limits" when it comes to practice hits, and should be. But they are very aware of pressure regardless. I'm excited that Bake gets an entire off-season to work with the 1's. After what he did last year, can you imagine....?

Try playing an unfretted stringed instrument.

90,000 ways to play a note out of tune; only one place where it's exactly right.

I tried, Clem. And I found all 90,000 ways to play that note wrong and only once did I find the right way. Of course, I immediately realized I had no idea how I played the right note.

Fair enough.....I was keeping it in the realm of sports.

That said, there are probably fewer PGA pro's then concert cellists. And probably way more who try to be good at golf.


That said, all the respect in the world my friend.

First, it's a mystery.
Next, it's a crap shoot.
Then, it starts making sense... and that's when you can start learning something.


'Peen: I tell my students that NFL players, tennis pros and LeBron are athletes of large muscle groups, and musicians are athletes of small muscle groups. The training regimens are strikingly similar. The coaching techniques are mostly the same. Only the jobs look dissimilar, but human beings all learn the same way. Study the body, adapt it to the specific job at hand, and begin refining the movements until pure technique is left. It's all about burning off the impurities.

Posts like that are why we like Clem.

Just because Bake said he’s not going to work on his mechanics doesn’t mean he’s not ... just because he didn’t go work with a QB guru that WE KNOW OF doesn’t mean he’s not working on the mechanical flaws he has ... I’m sure Bake is doing EVERYTHING HE CAN to improve in all areas of his game ..... knowing who Bake is and how driven he is to succeed it doesn’t make sense he’s not working on all of his flaws ... it just doesn’t add up ... not at all ...

I’m sure they went over his flaws in his exit interview this year ... it doesn’t seem like Freddie or someone in the org, didn’t pick up on his flaws when watching film on him .. i’m sure the video staff put together a montage of all his missed throws and those were dissected ad nausea looking for the why’s and any flaws ...

I’m sure he’s working on them and getting feedback from someone .. it just doesn’t make sense that he’s not ...

Vers said he opens up his left foot to much on some of his innacurate throws and then says he needs to work with someone where they can watch film together ... I don’t know squat about that but Vers knows his stuff so I 100% believe it ... i also know even though Bake said he’s not going to work with someone on his mechanics that Bake’s not an idiot and he knows there not going to magically improve ...

I’ll almost guarantee U that he’s working with someone, somehow on his flaws ... or there’s a plan in place to get them worked on between now and TC ...

- he could be working with whoever prepared him for the draft last year ...
- he could be working with Stanton ...
- he could be working with our QB coach ... it may be against the CBA but if Bake wants too to it whats to stop him .. u think the nfl is spying on him ... *L*
- he could be working with someone we’ve never heard of who Bake trusts and has been working with for years ... doubtful but maybe Lincoln Riley or Hue ... *L* ...
- he may be live streaming the sessions he spends working on them back to Freddie with Freddie providing instant feedback for all we know ..

Bake’s a real smart dude that is driven to succeed and he’s not blind, deaf or dumb when it comes to any of his flaws and i’m sure he’s doing what he can to work on all of them and regardless of what he said I’m sure he’s working on his mechanics as well ..

Nothing else makes sense ...

THIS IS DIFFERENT!!!!

LETS GOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooo ...

Nothing prevents a player from reaching out to a coach on the team. The CBA limits the amount of contact a coach initiates.

No doubt. My post in no way suggests otherwise.

You obviously didn't comprehend my posts. I clearly said that working with your team mates to refine timing was just as important as working with a QB guru. You can't do everything at the same time. Right now reports are he's working with his team mates. Nobody said that was a bad thing.

Otherwise all people have done is show why we feel working with a QB guru is helpful to any QB.

I should have put j/c ... it was a general response not directed at u ... my bad ...

I’ve read very few of the posts in this thread ... not even sure i read even one entire post ... the dead period is even more sucky than usual this year ....

My sole point was i’m sure Bakes taking care of business witch is all that matters ... at least too me ...

It is the off season AND he/ like you has only one life- he wanted to see Paris, have you ever been....I've been several times and it's great. Kitchen's stated he wanted Baker away from football for awhile because he's going to grind on him when it starts.
Please don't dump on anyone for enjoying their off season, JMHO.
Go Browns!!!!

j/c:

I do not think my analysis of Bakers' strengths and weaknesses was even close to suckiness. I thought it was an honest analysis that was pure football talk. I'm sorry if that has no place on this board for some folks.

I'll bow out now.