DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Have you ever seen the Browns Roster so stacked?

OK...we can only judge the current roster on potential...But I am not even sure the 86' Browns were as stacked as we are today...It will be tough to compare different eras, but I feel I am forced to go back this far before I find that stacked roster.

OFFENSE

QB
86' - Bernie Kosar | Mike Pagel
19' - Baker Mayfield | Drew Stanton

Tough Call but I may have to give it to 86' But easy to say even too. I think Baker will surpass Kosar And he had the best year a Rookie ever had. Bernie never threw 27 TD's in a season...But his consistency and low interception rate make up for it. Also playing in a league that was not as pass heavy with more lenient rules on the DB's is a factor as well. I think Stanton and Pagel are a wash.

---------------

RB
86' - Kevin Mack | Earnest Byner | Curtis Dickey
19' - Nick Chubb | Duke Johnson | Kareem Hunt

WOW - What a comparison here. Mack and Byner coming off of dual 1000 yard performances vs Nick Chubb and Kareem Hunt!!! Those of us who saw Mack and Byner in their prime know they were considered elite. But I think Duke Johnson over Curtis Dickey gives this...SLIGHTLY to 19' Curtis Dickey wasn't a slouch.

---------------

OL
86' - Paul Farren | Larry Williams | Mike Baab | Dan Fike | Cody Risien
19' - Greg Robinson | Joel Bitonio | JC Tretter | Austin Corbett | Chris Hubbard

Geez it doesn't get any easier...does it. Both lines bring in a new Guard. Corbett for 19' and Larry Williams for 86' I think I have to give this to 86' though. Farren and Risien were one of the best Tackle combos in the league. And I think that trumps Bitonio over Fike. Baab vs Tretter??? I will call this a wash although Baab was one of my favorite Browns ever.

---------------

TE
86' - Ozzie Newsome | Harry Holt
19' - David Njoku | Demetrius Harris

OK, Njoku may be a better athlete than Ozzie...But Ozzie is arguably the best TE to play the game....and he blocks...and catches everything...No contest here...86'

---------------

WR
86' - Webster Slaughter | Reggie Langhorn | Curtis Weathers | Brian Brennan
19' - Odell Bekham Jr. | Jarvis Landry | Antonio Callaway | Rashard Higgins

My favorite 86' receiver was Brian Brennan. I know "Webstar" was the darling for most fans...Brian Brennan was my favorite. While Weathers and Brennan, have more more experience than their counterparts Callaway and Higgins. I think the 19' duo is more talented. I am not going to compare numbers here because the 86' crew had to deal with DB's that were allowed to rough them up a bit...lol...But you know what...This one isn't even close. While we all loved Slaughter and Langhorn. I never considered them elite. Both were good... But you didn't put them in the same category as Rice and Clark, Duper and Clayton, Al Toon, Art Monk, etc. But OBJ and Jarvis Landry??? I don't think this is even close. DB rules or no DB rules...I have to give this to 19'

I think the WR's alone give the 19' Browns Offense the edge based on how they effect the game today in this passing league.




DEFENSE

Front 7
86' - Reggie Camp | Bob Golic | Carl Hairston | Chip Banks | Eddie Johnson |Anthony Griggs | Clay Matthews Jr. (*Mike Johnson was a rookie and not a starter)
19' - Myles Garrett | Larry Ogunjobi | Sheldon Richardson | Olivier Vernon | Christian Kirksey | Joe Shobert | Genard Avery

The 86' Browns were in Schottenheimer's 3-4, while the 19" Browns are in Wilks' 4-3. So I am looking at the front 7 as a whole. Pass Rush - The potential for the 19' Browns to get after the passer is ridiculous. They were pieced together for this very purpose. While the 86' Browns were "read and react" and built to control the line of scrimmage. I have a fondness for every guy in this front 7 in 86' But I think the 19' Browns are built to attack the offenses of today, more so than the 86' Team was built to attack the offenses then. 86' front 7 was a balanced D. They didn't get after the QB all that great, and they were good against the run. Bend but don't break...Despite Clay Matthews, Bob Golic, etc...I have to give this to 19'

---------------

CB
86' Hanford Dixon | Frank Minnifield | Mark Harper
19' Denzel Ward | Terrance Mitchell | TJ Carrie

The 19' Browns are hamstrung by stricter rules and therefore must be so much better in order to be considered elite. Denzel Ward was a 1st ballot Pro Bowler. But Dixon and Minnifield were considered on of the best duo's of all time. NFL Networks Top Ten put them at #2 behind Lester Hayes and Mike Haynes. So I don't think we can give this to 19'. Dixon and Minnifield were awesome to watch. I am so glad I got to witness it. Definite win for 86'

---------------

Safety
86' - Chris Rockins | Ray Ellis (* Felix Wright did not start)
19' - Damarious Randall | Derrick Kindred

Rockins and Ellis were Hard Hitting, but they weren't Al Gross and Don Rogers. Randall and Kindred have to cover more. And if I am picking I think I go with the 19' crew. Felix Wright eventually locked this position down for the Browns...but it wasn't in 86'. Tough call but I like the athleticism of the 19' crew.

Overall I think this is a wash...Dixon and Minnifield make up a lot of ground from the other 2 comparisons going to 19'. The defenses are built to do different things. So it is quite difficult to compare. Even when considering how well they can do what they were designed to do. (or potentially what they were designed to do)




This is as stacked of a team as I have seen in what seems like forever...The 19' offense is downright ridiculous. In this day of parity in the NFL...Teams should not be so stacked.

I went with the 86' Browns...do you have a different roster to go against? Make your comparisons or discuss mine....

Not in my lifetime. I was 3 in 86 so that doesn't mean much to me.

Great post. It means a lot to me unlike some.

86 was the first year I became a Brown's fan.

Enjoyed your analysis. I think you are spot on.

Pretty sure the only time I've seen the Browns roster this stacked is in Madden franchise mode after a fantasy draft.

Yeah...We did see 86 play...I did preface that we can only judge 19 on potential...But man...I keep going over the lineup and it still amazes me. and I had to go all the way back to 86' before I could find something comparable to that potential...

Thinking further...one thing I think is a little bit of a wash as well is Kitchens/Monken vs Lindy Infante

Infante's Offense was predicated on timing and throwing the ball before the receiver was technically open. Sure offenses do that all the time today...but outside of the West Coast 49'ers...It wasn't done quite that way. This is where Kosar was so good. Pre-snap he would KNOW where he was going with the ball. Kitchens and Monken throw creativity at Defenses as well...The Carolina Game was a perfect example. The Landry Runs were designed so well that the Best LB in the Game at anticipating plays (Keuchley) was caught completely off guard and out of the play.

Cool idea for a thread. The '86 team was my favorite team ever.

I'm not going to compare the teams just yet, but that doesn't mean I don't like the thread. I enjoyed reading your analysis.

What about Matt Bahr vs Greg Joseph?

Oh you got me there!!! LOL

Loved Matt Bahr. He was 20 of 26 on FG's and 30 of 30 on XP
Joseph was 17 of 20 on FG's and 25 of 29 on XP

of course a 2018 XP is a chip shot FG in 86'

In the end the Matt Bahr/Mark Mosely combo beats out the Gonzalez/Joseph combo based on my affinity to the Triple Overtime Jets game alone...LMAO!!!!!


Colquitt vs Gosset....I think that is a wash...lol but if you want to get picky...Colquitt had a better average (41.5 to 45.4) so give that to 19' (same amount of punts too)

I just checked Google to be sure... Matt Bahr is still alive, probably should have him tighten the chin strip on that single bar helmet and come to camp. I think he'd outkick Joseph.

j/c:

Great thread idea! To answer the question: Yes.

I'd say we were similarly stacked in 2007, and that team we actually saw win on the field.

Derek Anderson was coming off a Pro Bowl season, Braylon Edwards, Kellen Winslow Jr., Joe Jurevicious, might actually have been a more hyped WR corp than we have now.

Jamal Lewis riding his big comeback at RB. Lawrence Vickers, a fan favorite at FB.

Shaffer, Tucker, Fraley, Steinbach and Thomas at O-line was considered a very good group.

Our Defense wasn't as flashy, but was solid.

D'Qwell Jackson led the league in tackles, Willie McGinest had a solid "aging veteran" year, Leigh Bodden and Brodney Pool were mid-tier DBs, and Eric Wright was getting some hype.

Our ST was top notch with Phil Dawson and Dave Zastudil.

Obviously this all flamed out spectacularly, due to an outbreak of staph infections and FO drama, but on paper and on the field the team was dangerous.

It's the entire reason why I'm TRYING (and failing mostly lol) to not getting excited for this upcoming season. It's CLE.

The Ice Cube, Gerald McNeil... Another of my favorites from that team as a Punt Returner.

Way off.


That 2007 team didn't beat a single team with a winning record. Beat a horrible Rams team.

Won two games in OT (Phil Dawson doink against Baltimore).

They beat a Chris Weinke led 49ers team.


Simply put, they had a lucky season and beat nothing but rebuilding teams. That team was never good, they just had one good year.



Best game I've ever been to though, that home opener.

I agree.

They flamed out, but this thread is about hype going into a season. I can't find the stat, but I think that team had like 5 or 6 Pro Bowlers. (lemme know if anyone knows a site for this lookup please)

EDIT: found it, 5 Pro Bowlers, though one was Ryan Pontbriand the long snapper, so I could see calling it 4.

Since '99 that team was by far the closest to win the AFCN (a feat we've still never done), only missing out on Tie Breakers because Indy threw the last game on the year vs the Titans to rest starters.

Yeah but the hype wasn't that big. There was excitement from getting Thomas AND Quinn when we all thought it was an either/or situation. But even then...the starting QB going into the season was Charlie Frye. Nobody had a single thought about Anderson.

It was the best year we have had...but I could not call that roster "stacked". Even from the perspective of before the season started. JMO

I would like to see a comparison between the 2019 and the 1980 Browns.

Quarterbacks
Sipe was NFL MVP, Pro Bowler etc.
16 Paul McDonald

Running Backs
25 Charles White
30 Cleo Miller FB
34 Greg Pruitt
35 Calvin Hill
43 Mike Pruitt FB

Wide Receivers
33 Reggie Rucker
80 Willis Adams
83 Ricky Feacher
85 Dave Logan
89 Keith Wright KR/PR

Tight Ends
82 Ozzie Newsome
84 McDonald Oden
87 Curtis Weathers LB

Offensive Linemen
54 Tom DeLeone C
63 Cody Risien T
64 Joe DeLamielleure G
65 Henry Sheppard G
68 Robert E. Jackson G
69 Joel Patten T
73 Doug Dieken T
79 Gerry Sullivan T/C

Defensive Linemen

70 Jerry Wilkinson DE
72 Jerry Sherk DT
77 Lyle Alzado DE
90 Marshall Harris DE
91 Henry Bradley DT
93 Ron Crews DE
94 Elvis Franks DE

Linebackers
50 Don Goode OLB
52 Dick Ambrose ILB
53 Bill Cowher ILB
55 John Mohring LB
56 Robert L. Jackson ILB
57 Clay Matthews OLB
58 Cliff Odom ILB
59 Charlie Hall OLB

Defensive Backs
20 Judson Flint CB
21 Oliver Davis CB
22 Clarence Scott SS
24 Autry Beamon SS
27 Thom Darden FS
28 Ron Bolton CB
48 Lawrence Johnson CB
49 Clinton Burrell CB

Special Teams
8 Johnny Evans P/QB
12 Don Cockroft K
26 Dino Hall KR

Sorry, I wasn't clear, I mean the hype going into '08. I should've said that.

As you said at the end of '07 we had our best record since '99, the most productive WR corp in Browns HISTORY, and a top LT and prospect QB we drafted first round.

Everyone was HYPED going into '08. Saying otherwise is just revisionist history.

I remember all the magazine covers well.

You have a good argument vadawg! Sipe in 80 is the only Brown to win MVP of the league not named Brown, and at the most important position.

Oh you are really bringing back memories for me now...LOL

I loved the Kardiac Kids...(Don Cockroft kicking...and a Rutigliano Super Bowl Team)

Sipe was the MVP...2 Pruitt's in the backfield...Dino Hall(oe of my favs) Of our receivers...I was Dave Logan fan!

lucky I was so young...I would have had a coronary every game that season...LOL

I am not sure it rates up with the 86 team as far as a "stacked" roster....the 80' Browns were a product of the city...a blue collar team that fought with everything they had till the very end. They were not studded with stars and accomplished great things despite that...

All I know is I've been following the Browns for almost 50 years and fully expect some disaster to strike.. Like Baker tears an ACL in camp. DONE.. end of season. Drew leads us to 6-10 and we start over next year.

How many times have we been dissapointed.........

This is going to be a heck of a season and as someone else said - we aren't through yet. Every chance we add talent on draft day AND every chance there is a deal or two in the works!

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001...ee-agencytrades

I'd like to see how the team and new coach gel before I get too excited .... but man this is nice to see.

I'm not here to compare eras, and the early 50's Browns were before my time, but those teams were stacked beyond belief, relative to their era. They had 8 HOF players: Len Ford, Frank (Gunner) Gatski, Otto Graham, Lou Groza, Doug Jones, Dante Lavelli, Marion Motley, and Bill Willis. Add to that a legendary HOF coach, Paul Brown. There were also two future HOF coaches who played for those teams: Don Shula and Chuck Noll.

I was alive for the 64 champions and they were plenty stacked too, with 5 HOF'ers: Jim Brown, Paul Warfield, Gene Hickerson, Leroy Kelly (who backed up JB and returned punts), and Groza, now only as a kicker. There were two other guys among the 64 champs who, IMO, should be in the HOF - Gary Collins and Dick Schafrath.

I am very optimistic for the current Browns' chances but those teams went out and actually did it, while these Browns have yet to win a sausage.

I think the Browns roster has had a lot of talent, "several" different times in my lifetime and memories going back to whenever 1980 something.

I could say "last year" they had a lot of talent.

I could go with the, (I feel this way this time of year, every year anyway) angle but nobody would agree.

I DO think, people, if they examined the 94 team, would be surprised, it was very rich with talent, and Bellichic had the tight ends do very well even though I didn't like any of them, and , I don't know what they were thinking about linebackers, I didn't like any of them either.

But the front 4, went 8 guys deep, all of whom started, were starters 4 years later IIRC.

And the receivers were unbelievable. And the Safety, that guy who led with his helmut,

Ya how can someone argue the topness of the current roster with Jabrill Peppers leaving a week ago, and hasn't been replaced yet. hmm.

That 94/95 team, I liked their LT better than Joe Thomas, ... Pretty good Center too.

Oh and , people aren't going to like this one,

What about that 01, or 02 team, Davis' 2nd year, ( Man I've still got a review of an old game day tv where the announcer, doing the all league update Talks about that Browns high powered offense) and he wasn't joking.

People can think what they want to think.

Someone tell me the 8th worst player on the Browns D line of that 1994 or 95 team, because they were all very good.

I was born in the late 40's . Jim Brown and Leroy Kelly is pretty strong. Otto Graham and Frank Ryan are pretty strong. Bernie, Brian, Mack, Byner, Ozzie, Clay....the list could grow...Lou...he has a kicker award named after him for crying out loud. Not to mention guys like Warfield, Lavelli, and Collins.

I have seen some stacked teams, but this one on paper looks pretty good.

Now we have to do it. Paper and talk are cheap. It takes money to buy whiskey. I look forward to our first shot(s) in a long time.

I don't know where we are headed, but we should be able to compete. After that, you have to have a bit of luck on your side.

"John got the team together one day,
and put petroleum in the Gatorade.
He said Super Bowl time is coming on fast,
let's jet past the league like an atomic blast...."

Those words my be off a bit as my memory isn't what it used to be.

Sounds good enough.

I only truly know post-the return. So for me, the best I've ever seen was in 2007....

On offense we had Jamal Lewis and Jerome Harrison @ RB. Braylon, Cribbs, and KII (Winslow) as options down the field. Few solid pieces on the o-line in Joe Thomas and Eric Steinbach.

On defense we had Wimbley, McGinnest, DQwell, Andra Davis, Chaun THompson... Leigh Bodden, Eric Wright, Sean Jones, and Brodney Pool.

That was the closest I've ever seen to having a decent team. Biggest difference is the QB spot. We had Derek Anderson. I'll end the post there.

I am looking forward to comparing the 19 team with our 1964 team

Solid analysis. Great on paper so far. I am encouraged and I am excited.

But I am also very aware that every team is currently undefeated. Until we change that for them, grain of salt for everyone.

This group could be special. Really special.

Everyone is free to create their own comparisons or expand upon mine...Please do so. The 1964 and 1994 comparisons intrigue me...If I can find the time...I may try one or both of those...



I don't understand all of the negativity. I think it obvious that "they haven't won anything". I don't know how many times I have to type out that they can only be judged on "potential" before it is understood that this is just a fun exercise. Looking at the roster compared to previous rosters is perfectly valid as a means to measure potential for the coming year. Judging the current roster upon each player's past.

Have they won any games this year??? Obviously not...But neither have the Patriots, Saints, Rams, or Chiefs...That doesn't stop people from ranking them as the top 4 teams in the league...All 4 of them do not have the same roster now that they had for the playoffs last year...so saying they won a Super Bowl, or a Playoff game is irrelevant. Their current roster hasn't won ANYTHING. Just like ours.

So what has our roster won? We have players who have won Super Bowls. They have won Pro Bowl berths. They have won the respect and admiration of many in the league, and outside of the league. They have won the eyes of many in the coming months wanting to see how they will perform.

These are things that have not been "won", by this franchise, in a long time. If you can't understand these things, then maybe this thread is not for you...

The teams you mention, Patriots,Rams,Saints and Chiefs, all have a core who were in the playoffs last year. We were a below .500 team last year, so to speculate, and compare to the greatest teams in Browns History, without seeing them on the field, as a unit, does not make sense.

j/c:

It's a feel-good, positive thread. No need for anyone to hate on Pete. It beats the hell out of a ton of other threads. I also think that Pete is talking about the talent on the roster and comparing it to the talent on previous rosters. I don't think he is talking about accomplishments. He is talking about the talent on the roster.

How does it not make sense? I mean do people not understand what the word "potential" means?

Each player on the current roster has a past. And we can "speculate" what they can bring to the unit. How far back in the Browns History do we have to go where we could say that we have...on the roster...arguably the best receiver in the league? And arguably one the best WR tandems in the league...we could argue the other positions as well.

None of this EQUIVICALLY states that the Browns are going to win this year...

BUT...it does point to potential...

po·ten·tial /pəˈten(t)SHəl/

adjective
1.
having or showing the capacity to become or develop into something in the future.
"a two-pronged campaign to woo potential customers"
synonyms: possible, likely, prospective, future, probable, budding, in the making;

noun
1.
latent qualities or abilities that may be developed and lead to future success or usefulness.
"a young broadcaster with great potential"
synonyms: possibilities, potentiality, prospects;

I liked the comparison and the post Pete

One thing that is yet to be known: coaching. We'll see how our coaching staff handles the egos/expectations ... and how they can maximize our players on O

I'm certainly not trying to downplay your post Pete. I think it took a lot of work and thought to come up with the comparison and love the analogy. I too am excited, although try to somewhat temper it. But I would like to attempt to explain why some may not be as excited as you are.

Potential is something we've all heard about after every draft. As rookies enter their second and third seasons we hear things like, "if they can reach their potential", "if they can live up to their draft status". So I think after two decades of that it's only natural to understand that people may feel a little snake bit.

I'm somewhat in between. I'm very optimistic, but like many, I need to see that potential play out on the field. I think our chances are very good when looking at the last half of last season. Signs indicate we are on the upswing. I think Dorsey is the best talent evaluator we've had since our return and it isn't even close.

So while I tend to lean more in the direction you've outlined, I still understand those who feel reserved and snake bitten.