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J/C - some old draft info on Thomas -

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/chad-thomas?id=32462018-0002-5599-6684-11680216f757

emanogbah
I would like to take the opportunity to thank the browns nation, for accepting me and giving me a chance to begin my career.. The past three years has truly been an amazing experience for me and my family... Thank you to the entire browns organization for giving a young kid from Nigeria a chance to live out his dream! I’m grateful for it all!🙏🏾
And to the dawg pound, you will always have a place in my heart❤️
Thank you and God Bless

https://twitter.com/EmanOgbah/status/1113181907318173700

Just because Dorsey has done a great job, doesn't mean he never makes mistakes.

Maybe Murray is significantly better than Kindred, but I have a feeling Dorsey doesn't view him as a starter. I just don't understand what we gained by cutting Kindred then trading for this guy?

Why not cut Chris Smith, who is 31, and IMO not as good as Ogbah, and actually save $3M and use that to sign a better safety?

I know people don't care about the salary cap, but Dorsey has blown through our warchest of roll-over cap space at an alarming rate. All the trades have given us a significant amount of dead-cap money this year. The Browns currently are spending $209M against the cap, $10M more than anyone else, and $20M more than the current salary cap.

I understand that we want to go for it, especially with Baker being on his rookie deal. But with all the young talent the Browns and Dorsey have assembled, they will need pay them in the future. Making smart money moves now will help this in the future, even though we aren't up against the cap right now because of our roll-over cap space.

Dorsey kinda ran into this same problem in KC, and I don't want to see it happen again here. Maybe he knows something about the next CBA that we don't, and all the cap space talk is moot, but we'll just have to see on that...

This board amazes me.

Each year creates new cap space and the cap goes up and contracts terminate.

Sashi didn't create a 70 mil chest to sign guys 3-4-5 years from now. He would have been spending right now as well.

That said, this isn't to promote Sashi, I am glad John is running the show. I am simply saying John is doing it right.

He has become frugal here lately. I am sure Depo and the team showed him where going out of this year with 35 mil cap reserve was a optimal position because we have this guy and this guy to sign and this guy and this guy will create space when their contracts are up.

It takes an entire front office team to get it right as well as be sustainable. It takes a good balance between strategist's and tacticians to win the game.

Eisenhower's strategy along with Patton's tactics were a pretty good combination. Reverse the roles, probably not.

Not as good at what? If you're talking ability to get after the passer,I'd probably disagree.

Also, Smith doesn't have much trade value at 31. We don't want him to start, but as an occasional pash rusher he has some value to us. Probably more than Ogbah would have on passing downs,and its a passing league.

Which better safety is out there?

A bunch of other old guys with underwhelming cover skills?

Murray should be heading into his prime.

Chris Smith is only 27. I don't know where the poster you replied to got 31. He was born 2-11-1992.

Further, only Stanton and Colquitt are over 30. 1 player is 29, and 9 are 28. The vast majority of our roster is 27 and younger.

Nice

I like him even better now.

Does kind of kill my trade value argument, though.

Not sure...spotrac has him as 31???

Chris Smith

Height: 6-1 Weight: 266 Age: 27
Born: 2/11/1992 Mount Ulla , NC
College: Arkansas
Experience: 6th season
High School: West Rowan HS [Mount Ulla, NC]

I thought Chris Smith played well last year as a rotational DE. He can get after the passer a little bit and made some plays in the run game. Good rotational player.

I thought he played well ... +1

I've got no problem with Chris Smith the player. I'd say he's above average against the run, but his pass production is not great (1 sack and 2 QB hits in 330+ snaps last year is not great). Like you said, he's a good rotational player to give your pass rushers a breather on early downs.

The problem is, he's being paid like a starter. $4.5M this year, and $5M this year. That is the 35th highest cap hit for all DEs this year. Is he better than Ogbah, who was making $2M this year on an expiring contract? The Browns coaches didn't think so last year, and I'm going to say they know more than anyone on this board.

So, the question remains: Would you rather have Smith and Murray as back-ups ( I still don't think Dorsey views Murray as a starter at safety)? Or would you rather have Ogbah and Kindred as back-ups, plus $3M in cap space (to sign Tre Boston, perhaps?), and a good chance to get a 5-7th rd comp pick from Ogbah when he leaves next year? I guess it depends on how much better you think Murray is than Kindred.

Question first, are we talking about the 27 yr old Chris Smith or the 31 year Chris Smith?

We have plenty of room to sign Boston with or without the theoretical 3 million.

The difference between Smith and Ogbah is that teams at least tried to block Smith (a bit of hyperbole). Most (I'd say "many of," but I'm not sure there were enough to qualify) of Ogbah's splash plays came unblocked, and he only had 3 TFLs on the season with a lot more snaps. I like Ogbah, and he gave his all for us. Just didn't seem to have enough wiggle on the edge or girth on the inside.

Ogbah could be a solid edge setter in KC, but it looks like Dorsey is going all-in on splash plays and takeaways.

That is a fair post, but bro..........it's kind of hard to criticize Dorsey after how he has transformed this roster.

I already admitted I wanted to keep Ogbah as a rotational guy, but man........Dorsey took the worst roster in the league and it is now being talked about as one of the top 3 rosters in the entire league. I heard Kellerman the other day arguing for the Browns having the very best roster. Former players are saying the same thing. He did this in less than 2 years.

I'll cut him some slack.

I agree ... and I wasn't a fan before last season.

Totally agree; Dorsey has done a fine job. While I do not wish to turn this into a Sashi thread, I feel his contribution to this success with draft picks and cap space is under-appreciated...

That might be the most surprising aspect of this. Heck, just 8 games ago we were coming off of a 3-36-1 stretch.

tab, Murray is supposedly a very good Special Teams player. He is also a very good tackler. I don't think his coverage skills are very good and therefore, playing safety is probably a better spot for him than corner.

I'm not very fond of this particular trade, but there might be things going on that we don't know. Such as, was Ogbah going to be satisfied being relegated to becoming a rotational player?

Obviously people will disagree, but I think memphis is exactly right when he says Dorsey is getting rid of players for the sole fact they were not "his." I guess I'm not going to say it's a fact, but the evidence certainly supports this theory.

Whether or not it's pertinent, but I think he chapped some butts when he commented that the players on the team are not real players. Granted, he quickly changed his statement, but the damage was already done... hence trading a guy like McCourty for dirt cheap who could have obviously been a better player for us than what we had.

I'm not very fond of this trade either. Should we be concerned about our depth at edge ? Can someone remind me of what we have for depth after Vernon and Garret ?

I think he is getting rid of players because they weren't very good and is trying to acquire better players.

This team's talent was the worst in the league under Sashi's direction. Dorsey correctly diagnosed that and is doing an excellent job of upgrading the talent.

The only guys who won't agree w/that are guys like you and Memphis who are still trying to glorify Sashi and are throwing shade towards Dorsey.

I think it's grand that you two are miserable.

(FYI: I cut out the mention of other players to save some screen space in this quote)

I watched the coach's tape of the Chiefs game against us from the NFL Gamepass since it's often difficult to follow safeties on the broadcast view.

KC moved him around a lot. Had him single high, over the slot/TE, in the box/as the force player on the edge. Would rotate late a lot to disguise what they were doing.

I wouldn't recommend him as the edge setter/force player very often as there was one play where Greg Robinson absolutely buried him.

I imagine we'll use him similarly. His versatility is his strength.

As far as tackling, he seemed fairly reliable, but was more of a drag down tackler than a striker. Some of that is probably due to the fact he was acting as the last line of defense most of the time. Not the most aggressive in sticking his nose in the fray as he sometimes would seem to ease up and assume other guys would make the tackle instead of always flying to the ball. I don't know if that reflects the CB background or he was coached to kind of hang back in those situations to ensure he didn't overrun things as the last line of defense as I mentioned earlier.

He looked like a fluid mover and had the long speed to keep up with Perriman and Callaway on deep shots pretty well. I'm not sure about his burst, didn't see him break on underneath routes, but the ball didn't head his way much. Ball skills/playmaking are also hard to gauge. Looked like he was usually in range to make a play, but was often playing the man rather than the ball.

He looked better in the pass game than Kindred (not that that is saying a whole lot). How much better remains to be seen, at least noticeably, though. Not as aggressive in the run game.

I'm not sure he'd be a great starter, but should be a passable one without an obvious weakness to exploit. Still would be nice to get Tre Boston (as the usual/base starter) and be able to move guys around.

How the hell do u or anyone else know we have even a top 10 analytics department in football ... U have NO CLUE ... NONE ...

It could be the best and it could be the worst ... NONE OF US HAS A CLUE ...

I agree its a TOOL ... and an extremely useful one when it comes to down and distances and tendencies and things of that nature ...

In FOOTBALL and TALENT EVALUTION it has VERY LITTLE TO NO AFFECT ... its not baseball, theres way to many variables ... u can’t plug in how Bryce did against right hand pitchers in day games ...

And like i said .. our talent acquisition is NIGHT AND DAY DIFFERENT since we got an actual football guy in ...

And tabber ... Depo and analytics helped in Oakland ... a team with A limited budget ... what he did with analytics helped them aquire talent ... then he went to teams with big budgets and he STUNK ... LITERALLY STUNK ...

He STUNK with the Dodgers and Mets who are two huge budget teams and he sucked with the padres also ...

He’s WON NO WHERE since Oakland witch he did help ... and he WON ZERO WORLD SERIES with them ...

U can spin it anyway u want ... WE HAVE NO CLUE HOW GOOD OUR ANALYTICE DEPARTMENT IS ... NONE ...

You and Peen and everyone else is basing it off what Depo did back in the late 90’s and the early 2000’s with the A’s ... after that he stunk in baseball ...

Those are the FACTS BRO and they don’t have feelings ....

Care to discuss his results OR any of those facts????

I think you misunderstand what DePodesta actually does.

From his bio on the Browns website: Link

He's not actively involved in the "results." He tries to improve the systems already in place that lead to those results.

If you have guys with little/no practical experience in talent evaluation using the system, the results won't be as good as with someone who knows what they are doing.

He's not making the decisions, he's helping (trying to help) those making the decisions make better/more informed ones.

Since when is DePodesta and his department doing talent evaluation??

Aside from people completely misunderstanding the usage of "analytics" over and over again, I'm pretty sure that has never been the case except in people's minds on here.

Most of what you said is not true. And I'm far from miserable.

And you honestly think trading Ogbah for Murray is an attempt at getting a better player? Please. You're being very transparent.

A backup DE was traded for a backup safety,nothing more.
If either starts for their respective team this coming year,then an upgrade will be needed in the off season.

That's about all there is to it.
We unloaded a backup at a position we were top-heavy at and acquired a backup/depth at a position we had little at.

Murray may not be a better player than Ogbah, but there is currently a very strong argument to be made that Murray's value and impact for the 2019 Browns will be higher than Ogbah's would have been as a backup/rotational player. e.g. We needed the Safety more than we needed another DE.

You shop with the credit you have, where that credit is accepted.

j/c,

imo it is premature to speculate on who will be our starting SS when the season begins, but like others have stated before, Murray is a pretty decent ST guy iirc he has a blocked FG in his career, but there seems to be more of an emphasis than in recent years on ST players who our\will be depth.

What does that mean practically on a day to day basis? ... and how long could that take? ... not being snarky ...

How do u improve the process of talent evaluation? ... did the come up with a different way to watch film? ... did they come up with a better way to watch film? ...

And i replied to what tab and many others have said ...

NO ONE HAS A CLUE HOW MUCH AND WHERE IT HELPS ...

I may not understand what Depo’s roll is here ... but i understand what many are saying on here about it ... and quite a bit of it is BS IMO ...

He STUNK at his last 3 stops in baseball ... nowi ’m suppose to just believe he turned it around when he got here ... not a BLIND FAITH kinda dude ....

Right in this thread on this page ... the post i replied too ... in a discussion about the talent upgrade .... here’s tabbers post ... please tell me how u interpreted it .... it’s obvious how i did ...


......................................................................

Actually we got the best analytic department out there. Analytics in Football is a "TOOL" and like most TOOLS they are only as good as the one Wielding them.

So I know you were joking but actually you hit the nail on the head.

Dorsey is the right guy at the right place at the right time!!!

Analytics...we got a guy who knows what to do with the INFORMATION provided...

jmho

Ahh, gotcha. I had skimmed past it.

Yeah, I'd be inclined to generally agree with tabber, actually. I also tend to agree with you in that we have no idea if they are the best or the worst.

I disagree on the potential value with talent evaluation as evidenced with the emergence of so called "advanced stats" from places like PFF. Those sorts of stats are what stats for the sport should have been all along - quantitative stats with a qualitative context. For its entire existence, the primary stats in the NFL have been purely quantitative with zero meaningful context ... passing yards for a QB, for example.

Also, I disagree with your assertion that he sucked with those other teams for the very reason that Passing Yardage, or Yds Per Game for a Defense, are terrible stats - it completely fails to account for any sort of context. Unless you know how much those teams actually took his advice, you can't even begin to measure his effectiveness.... and the number of championships won is probably the worst individual metric to measure that with.

I need more coffee.... or, maybe I've had too much?

On a day to day basis, you are right. I don't really know.

With regards to talent evaluation, I don't think he changes the way they get the evals, but he provides insight on how those traits might be better valued. For example, a guy might have 10 speed (on a scale of 1-10), but how much is that worth at that position and how much is that worth to our team might be adjusted using historical data. And there are probably multiple profiles within a position. Such as, an edge can win with speed or power. There are probably decent thresholds he can put together for both types.

He can look at Dorsey's past picks and see what went right or wrong and try to figure out why by looking at the numbers.

My biggest concern with your criticism is that you were "blaming" him for results. He's not the one making the decisions. That's kind of like blaming the Caddy when the golfer shanks a ball. He just gives people the tools and some recommendations and more information, they still have to do their jobs.