DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Help me understand if you can

I don't want to start a fight or anything but there is something that baffles me.

I've been listening to Democrats say they want Trumps tax returns and they want the Mueller report released.

Trump says no collusion, no obstruction.. Says he's totally cleared. Barr says that the Mueller report clears trump of Collusion but doesn't clear him of Obstruction but Barr says he's cleared Trump of Obstruction.

Crazy right?

So, can anyone explain this to me.. Why does trump and his republican allies feel it's necessary to keep the mueller report secret from congress? Why does trump feel it's necessary to keep his tax return secret from congress.

He and all his supporters say he's innocent, yet he won't show the things they want to see.

Seems to be that if I'm in his shoes, I release the taxes in a NY Second...and I ask Barr to release the Mueller report in a NY Second..

If he's all that clean, what's he got to fear?

I have an opinion but people on the right don't want to hear it.. His actions speak louder than his words. I think he's hiding something and the longer it takes to get this stuff out there, the more likely he is to have had it doctored.

And I don't think that in the end, that will work..

What say you,,, someone school me on this please.

Let's say the IRS investigates you for tax fraud, and they confiscate your computer. They find you innocent for tax fraud, but they want to share every website you ever visited (accidental or not) with your co workers, customers, the media and your family. Would you be OK with that?

Would you want people prying into every aspect of your life because, as you put it, "I think he might be hiding something".

Trump is surrounded by criminals and unsavory characters. They do't want it released because it's going to show just how unsavory they are. It will likely have lots of detail about their shady dealings.

Really not hard to understand why. If they CAN keep it from people, they would absolutely want to. You're thinking there is going to be a smoking gun in there and it's more just his ego doesn't want him to look bad.

If I've got nothing to hide, if I've been saying for almost 4 years that my taxes are under audit and are clean anyway, if for years I've said, no collusion, no obstruction, no nothing.,.

Yeah, show the freakin world and shut them up once and for all. But I don't think he can do that without cutting his own throat. JMO however

Yeah, but if you did a Google search for "grandfather clock", and accidentally left out the "L", you wouldn't want that made public, would you?

Just because something isn't illegal doesn't mean its something you want to show off.

How much money one makes (or lost) is pretty personal to some people. I'm not sure Trump has anything to gain from releasing documents. No matter what seeing the numbers would probably make someone butthurt.

As it is, democrats will continue to spend a lot of energy on this already "decided" issue instead of spending that time finding new dirt.

Trump appears to be a terrible human being for all intents and purposes. I don't think any documents are going to change that.

I'd have no problem with it, because if you look at the very next search, it would most likely have the "L" in it making it suddenly and completely make sense except by those that are too biased to get it!

But in this political arena, one entire side would totally disregard your second search. Even a shyster like Trump has rights and due process should be followed.

Do you have a quote of that, or a link? Or are you just pushing your fake narrative again?

I don't think the tax return question has anything to do with how much he made, we all know he's made money.. It might show that he's not nearly as wealthy as he claims, but thats not really a problem for me other than it would be just another lie... I'm used to him lying.

What I'd be interested in is from what sources he made money.. Did he get money from Russian Oligarchs? Any foreign entities or individuals that might be deemed unethical or maybe even illegal. It also may be important to see WHEN he received those payments. ie: after he announced his run for office)

But again, he says he's innocent,,, of everything if I'm reading him right, what's the problem,, show them what they want.. According to him and his supporters, he's got nothing to hide....

That's a pretty far fetched theory you have there.



Here's how things actually work. When a prosecutor is investigating a possible crime or individual, sometimes they stumble upon other things during such an investigation. In the process of such an investigation other things come to light.

Sometimes you may be investigating a person for embezzlement and you discover tax fraud. That doesn't mean that the tax fraud will not be prosecuted. That doesn't mean because you were investigating a person for embezzlement that tax fraud suddenly isn't a crime because that isn't what you were investigating to begin with.

Whether one agrees with it or not, when you become a public official you give up your privacy. It's why every president since L.B.J. has publicly released their tax returns. Until now. Now they are trying to create a law to make it mandatory because they never dreamed there would be a need for such a law. Until now.

Hillary gave 12 hours of public testimony concerning the investigations done on her. I didn't hear anyone complain that her privacy was under attack.

What makes this an issue is because we have two sides of a story here and they seem to be somewhat at odds with each other. The people who helped Mueller investigate this case say that the initial Barr comments do not reflect what's in the report.

One thing you failed to mention is that it's the American tax payers who footed the bill for this investigation. So why should the people who paid for it not be able to see what's in it? We always hear the mantra of transparency until it's time to be transparent.

Then let's look at the difference between Republican congressmen and Republican senators shall we? All but four republicans in the house of congress voted to release the Mueller report with only redacting what was required by law. And those that didn't vote for it, refused to vote against it. That means that 193 out of 197 Republicans in the house of congress voted to release the Mueller report. There are still some Republicans with stones. Who still advocate transparency.

Barr’s letter said this: “The Special Counsel . . . did not draw a conclusion—one way or another—as to whether the examined conduct constituted obstruction.” The letter went on, “The Special Counsel states that, ‘while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him.’ ”

https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-colum...tion-of-justice

It was blasted on almost every news source there is. I'm not sure how you didn't know this. But there it is.

Cool, but you and others are grasping at straws at what "does not exonerate him" means. It does not say does not exonerate him of obstruction. For all you know he has a child support payment that was never paid and that's what wasn't "exonerated."

The poster is implying that the report from bar says he was not cleared of obstruction. That is neither true or false from the what Barr said, and he is making that up (the OP).

What the hell are you talking about?

What it means is there is evidence of obstruction but from what Barr believes not enough evidence to charge him of a crime. And what the hell does paying or not paying child support have to do with obstruction of justice? I'll give you a hint. Nothing.

You know this could all be cleared up by releasing the report, right?

Try and keep up, that was in his Summary letter issued 2 days after the Mueller report dropped.

here it is incase you didn't read it yet.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/03/24/us/politics/barr-letter-mueller-report.html

Ah I see now. The Russian collusion theory fell apart so you're wishing on a prayer that his taxes proves his ties to Russia. This is such a lame narrative. Trump has gone against the wishes of Putin at nearly every chance he has had since being in office.

He has sanctioned them a number of times. He sanctioned them for "Russian Trolls" ie election meddling. He backed weapons for Iran and Syria. He sanctioned Russians for the Ukraine and and Crimea. He opposed their gas pipeline I think it was called nord or something like that.He sold weapons to Ukraine, he ordered the closing of Russian diplomatic properties in the US.He booted 60 Russian diplomats out of the US.

None of the above is nearly as significant as his (which I actually disagree with personally) backing the Coup of Maduro. Russia is strongly in the Maduro camp and if my memory serves sent troops to aid Maduro during the "US led military coup of Maduro".



All of this leads into the fact that a 2 year investigation of Trump was done and didn't charge a single American with conspiracy or collusion. I am all for presidents providing taxes because I genuinely believe that that precedent will bite back for hundreds of years and a time will come when Democrats bemoan that precedent when it hurts on of their own. What you are doing is trying to string out the Russia Gate narrative because you WANT it to be true.

It says "it does not exonerate him", you are Assuming they are talking about obstruction. There could have been something else they are speaking about. I simply stated child support because it literally could be ANYTHING. They did not specify what.

If it said "it does not exonerate him from obstruction" you would be correct. However, again, read it. It doesn't specify.

So tell me again, if all that's true, why not release his tax returns or make sure that the Mueller report gets released.

See, what you did there is exactly what I don't understand. instead of endorsing the move to release his tax returns and the Mueller report, you began an assault on me for even asking the question..

That's exactly what I don't get and what I need help with.

But instead of answering my question,,, a very simple question, you go on the attack and do your best to do exactly what the president and his minions do... They don't answer questions, they distract.

If you can, answer my question....

Do you think that Mueller didn't see his returns in the investigation? Or go through every financial dealing with Russia he had? Honest question. What would his tax returns show YOU that Mueller hasn't already seen and deemed had no significance with collusion to Russia?

His tax returns wouldn't show Obstruction. Only if he had an in come stream from Russia, sooo again, honest question. What is it you want from them, and what are you going to learn?

I have no idea if he did or didn't.. do you? That's another reason why I want the Taxes and Mueller report.

You aren't answering the question, you are merely distracting because you DON'T LIKE THE QUESTION!

Oh and how do you know what his tax returns would show... unless of course you've seen them...I'm betting you have not.

You realize tax returns would not show obstruction, right? They would have been filed WAYYY before the investigation, and the information in a tax return would not even relate to what obstruction is. TDS at its finest folks.

What question, you have rambled on now for 3 years about Russian collusion, obstruction, hacking of voter booths, porn stars, recounts, emulates clause, etc etc.

I didn't even read your last post, because you cant even use the quote function correctly for me to decipher what you posted.

You want to see his returns for what reason? What do you think YOU will find, that Mueller didn't already investigate as it pertains to that?

I know it wont show obstruction because his tax returns were from BEFORE THE INVESTIGATION!!!!!!!!!! How can you obstruct an investigation before its even started. OMG are you that dense?

Nice side step. Let me ask you why every president since L.B.J. has released their taxes but somehow you're looking for some excuse why Trump shouldn't be held to the same standard?

Why are you making excuses why Trump shouldn't be held to the standard as every other president since L.B.J.? They've ALL released their tax returns.

Nobody said they would show obstruction.

We want the same transparency from this president that we expect from all presidents and have had no problem getting..... until now.

You can't possibly know what they'll show and that's really not the issue I was asking about. I was wondering where he receives his income from.

But in typical fashion, it's Distraction from the Trump supporters..

Really, you don't understand why he would not want it released fully? This is politics. Hypocritical behavior rules the day. BY the way, Nadler did not want Bill Clinton's full file released and a crime actually occurred. Both sides are guilty of it.

Neither side cares what it fully truthful. They just want any kind of correlation of guilt for any charge. I am certain that if the full report completely cleared the President of collusion and obstruction, but did indicate some "other crime evidence" whether it is can be proven or not, the media and the opposite party would run with that as long as they could.

For example if they asked someone a specific question about something from 2 years ago and it gets answered. They interview someone else who is wrong, lying or not, who claims something else, they can prosecute for whatever crime such as lying to investigators or obstruction.

Notice how Christine Blaisey Ford is not only a footnote? They did not care that she was allegedly abused, the plan to unseat Kavanaugh failed so she is out of site, out of mind. Now that Biden is being raked over the coals for being handsy, 5 years ago is too long to consider the claim seriously, where 30+ years in her case was. BY the way I think the Biden thing is creepy when watching his caress kids, it is not illegal and should not exclude him form consideration. I would not want him doing that to my 3 year old granddaughter.

I always wondered how they could get permission to get all of Michael Cohen's files, and I think I am right in saying, files that had nothing to do with the investigation. Is that normal investigation procedure? Seriously, I am asking because I don't know. What if Cohen was representing someone for something else and he ahs a footnote or something that his client confessed to a crime. Because if that is normal, what an easy way to prosecute. Just obtain all defendants attorney's records and your advantage in court is huge.

Watch the movie Absence of Malice from the early 1980s. It will show exactly how something can be true and false at the same time.

I was 11 years old when the Watergate stuff was happening and I actually paid a lot of attention to it at that age. I have seen so much in politics since and I am really surprised I bother to pay attention anymore.

Not looking for a lot of back and worth, just my 2 cents.

So the Mueller report and tax returns are full of smutty browser history? Your explanation is a reach at best.

More distraction....More accusations... More excuses

Geez,,,

If he is innocent as he says he is, release them.

I'm getting tired of hearing about it, but it's never going to end until he does....NEVER... They'll be talking about his for 20 years

People who foot the bill should be kept in the dark, according to some.

Actually, he's got a point, but one that if a person did what he said, there would be an immediate correction made and that too would show up in the history... Now, if nothing shows up,,,well, what we have here is a dirty old man, but it's not illegal anyway.

My first thought was "search for grandfather clock, without the L"... something that specific has to come from experience, lmao.

Maybe that's the way he wants it. Trump is obviously a big believer in there is no such thing as bad publicity. He's setting himself up for "bigly" (isn't that one of the stupid words he uses?) sales of his future tell all autobiography.

This is the last time I am going to explain why I personally think he does not want any of that stuff released. And my apologies I'm not trying to be nasty but you've been involved in just about every thread I've laid this out in.

It is going to make him look bad. Not because it is going to implicate him in some grand Russian conspiracy like you want to believe, simply put, it is going to prove he is lying about how much money he has, how dirty his businesses were, how crooked the people who work for him are. I don't know how many times I can say the same thing different way.

Exactly, of course they will find "something". For instance, if someone gives you a scratch off lottery ticket, you win $100, do you put it in your tax return? I am guessing 99.99 % would not. Not a huge deal, but if not, then we are just discussing the subjectivity of it. I realize this is stretching it and likely not going to be found out about and just making an example off the top of my head.

Most people would have something. I work in a financial institution and have been asked to do all kinds of things by my customers that are at best unethical. These are the "pillars of the community, front row church seating people".

His opponents don't really care if there is collusion or obstruction proof. They want anything, I mean anything to leak to the media t make him look bad. . This is politics.

Yeah, that's it. A $100 dollar scratch off. I have to go with what Bpg said.

I find it fascinating that you acknowledge all of that stuff but somehow can't believe there is something going on between him and Russia/Putin. Did you not find his behavior in Helsinki suspect?

At some point you have to conclude that after an almost two year investigation it is what it is. Did he and those around him do some suspicious things that certainly deserved an investigation? They most certainly did. But that doesn't mean they actually did anything. Had the woman had the information she claimed she did in the meeting with Manafort, Kushner and Don Jr. it would have most likely have been collusion. But she didn't.

I don't think "attempted collusion" is a crime.

I absolutely agree that at "some point" you have to say ok and move on; but that point won't be here until we know the UNFILTERED facts.

I'd also like to know what the hell it was we witnessed in Helsinki.