DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns Team Is Young In NFL Experience

Was just curious reading all these posts re second guessing the job Savage and RAC are doing and,thought I would see just what these two men who at their respective positions are only in their 2nd year; had to work with in NFL playing experience personnel on our team.

Of the total 53 players (41 Active, 3 Practise, 8 I.R. and 1 Non-Football Related Injury)

Excluding the Rookies of course, I came up with an average age in[color:"yellow"] NFL experience of 4.89 years.[/color] That's a pretty inexperience team on the whole, especially when you consider the starting QB and back-up have each only 2 years. Also, a team which has 18 rookies on its roster.

Note: My source (see link) showed Antonio Perkins on the Practise Squad with 2 years but, I thought we had cut him, and besides, counting him would mean also we had 9 players on the PS and I thought the limit was 8 only.

Link

Perkins was cut but added to the pratice squad later on. I figured as a punt return option in case Cutt gets hurt or 3 or more CBs get hurt.

I do agree 100% that the the teams youth is a big part of the team struggles.Before the season, some NFL anaylst were asked if Cris Simms is the awnser for Tampa Bay. The anaylst said "Im not worried about Simms. He only has 15 starts under his belt. He still needs some experiance. I think he will be a fine QB." Thats not word for word and Im sure Im not right about the 15 starts, but is was in that range. A lot of fans had to many expectations for the Browns when they are going into the season with Frye (5 starts) and Anderson (0 pass attempts) as their top 2 QBs. Savage wanted a vet with experiance to push Frye and for tutelege. I think that Frye hurting his wrist will be a blessing in disguise so he can see whats going on from the sidelines. Before the season, nobody expected Tony Romo to be a playoff caliber QB. Sitting on the sidelines for 4 years with a veteran team fimiliar with the system.

One problem with the defense is that Roye, McGinnest and Washington are so old and wont be part of the team when they are going to be putting a team together that puts consecutive playoff years together. There is no way they will be around for 2+ playoff seasons in a row. So those guys still need replaced which means the Browns still need to rebuild. I believe thats whats Savage is trying to do. Put a team together that can make the playoffs every year and not be a 1 hit wonder. Butch Davis didnt seem to think about the future. It was win now, or else. When davis did make the playoffs, he cut a crap load of vets and thought it was all about his system, not the personnel.

Then, who was released or waived from the PS? Isn't the limit 8 players? Unless German native Ulrich Winkler is exempted since is a NFLE player.

Im not sure but will look into it if I find some transactions. It was around the beggining of the season. Maybe when Baba got cut or when Baxter got hurt? Savage has been doing a little bit of tinkering on and off, here and there during the season. Mostly at the beginning and now that the season is near the end. Putting players that might be able to play and already know what they can do on the IR (Roye?) and see what they can find going into next year (Orien Harris). Even if Roye can play in week 17, it is better to give the old man a rest and see what Fraser can do with more playing time and Harris maybe on specail teams or on defense. This way they can compare Harris to Baba and maybe they wont have to use a pick in the draft on a D-line prospect. Im not saying that they wont get Branch because he would be a starter, but a d-lineman later in the draft that would help on specail teams or a player to redshirt for down the road. They need those picks for CBs and o-line. If Harris is considerably better then Baba, then they can go another direction in the draft. If he isnt, then the Browns just have had more players to evaluate and maybe learn from their mistakes to see exactley what kind of player that they are looking for in their system.

Bottom line is bad luck....................but that happens!

We need to build with more OL and DL in the draft............that is a no brainer!

There is no way that we can blame the coaching staff for the way the injuries are going.........but that has been a problem for the last how many seasons! <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

This offseason...........this management has major decisions to make!

Is our QB position set for another year or do we just blame the OL and get much help there and go with Frye for another season............that will be interesting!

Frye and Anderson are very young.............can they improve as they get more experience!

The DL needs at least another NT, but then that means another youngster to begin at the position with no NFL experience!

The Browns are going to need one more LB..............another youngster.....but hopefully our young ones at this position are going to get a whole lot better with time!

The defensive backfield is full of youngsters............if they stay healthy it is a solid crew...............well almost..............still need at least on more......another youngster!

I am not sure that Clutch and Baxter are the future for this team!

Phil Savage has his hands full............but I do have faith in him! <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I see a lot of talented players on this team............but this is going to be another season of seeing many people let go..........the players that have the wrong attitude will be gone!

Savage and RAC have much work to do...............seeing struggling teams like San Fran and Tennesse start to win big games has to give us a little hope! <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

It seems as if both teams have QBs that are starting to take off.............that is huge for a team!

We do need a much impoved OL.............that is a fact!

We will see how the next three weeks pan out for the Browns...........I would like to think that we can get two more wins.............let's see how that works out! <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

GO BROWNS!

Winkler is exempt...

Young starting d-lineman aint a bad thing. The Ravens D looks alot better now that Ray Lewis got that big body he was wanting in Ngata, but their D is healthier this year too. Richard Seymore did good his rookie year and plays in the 3-4. I could go on and on about rookie DEs that did good (Kearse, Peppers, Justin Smith) but thats in the 4-3 defense. I will be watching Alan Branch in Michigans bowl game to see if he has the impact to be a first rounder that everyone is talking about.

I dont think the Browns need another LB just yet, or at least until o-line, d-line, and CB are addressed. I dont know if I can really be mad if the Browns take Quinn or Troy at QB. Unless DA plays tough these last 3 weeks <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Next year, it will be really interesting to see the competiton with all the young CBs. Bodden is a no brainer. Cutch and Jeremy LeSuere will be off IR, Minter will be off the PUP list,and Perkins will compete as a redshirt Junior. Holley has really gotten better and could be a decent Nickle and now has the experiance to step in for an injured starter at anytime next year. I still want to get Asante Samual or Nate Clements in FA though.

This doesn't make sense to me. I would understand it if you were using it to defend RAC, but how does that defend Savage? Savage is the guy who has assembled the team. He is the one who chose to get rid of the vets that were here. This is his team.


I don't know how young the Browns are in comparison to other NFL teams, but I do know that Ted Washington, W. McGinnest, O. Roye, R. Tucker, and J. Andruzzi are nearing the end of their careers. Those guys all play on either the OL or DL.

Of course, those are the two areas of the team that Savage has chose to ignore in the draft. [color:"white"] Brilliant! [/color]

He is exempt. It is part of the NFLE program where every year on division must carry one European player on their practice squad for the whole year. This year is the NFC North's turn.

.... I refuse to except Anymore excuses : Period ! .. Win or get out !

Me too waterdawg.

I think the fact that we have the fewest draft picks starting or playing for our team than any other team in the league says more about why we are so putrid than how much experience we dont have.


Earlier this season Opie was talking about how we compared in this regard. I cant remember the numbers but we were 5-7 players below the league average. I think that says it all right there.

5-7 players who we should have on the roster that we just dont.....it indisputeably correlates with the number of draft picks that we have cut bait with since 99.

Think about having 5-7 draft picks to have a mulligan on. That is close to being able to adequately adress our Offensive & Defensive Line deficiencies.

What scares me is that It is obvious that we will nto be ablle to solely build through the draft, and that we may have to go through another round of cap hell just to allow us to compete. That will be followed shortly by another down cycle. The team is on bad footing in this regard. I hate to say it but it maybe longer than 5 years before this team can take shape.

Vers, I'm not trying to defend anybody in this thread; just trying to keep things in prespective as on how young and inexperienced we are as a team. Period. What do you guys propose; that we dump the GM who's replacement will consequently want to bring in his own coach and we're starting all over again. I don't know about you or some of the others here, but, when we signed PS and RAC, I made a personal commitment to support them the full 5 years that they had projected it would take to get this team to become competitive. I've been a fan now nearly 55 years and time is closing in on me and I'm just as anxious to see a winner here again but, I also realize and even more so since I joined this board how hard it is to achieve that goal in the NFL as it is today.

Re the above 5 players you mentioned that's what 5 guys out of 72 on the team and McGinnest is not a DL BTW, I think he's been playing at the LB. People have mentioned about our drafting, so maybe it's not as good as it should but, it's also a crew that has only been together for 3 years now, where some of the other teams FO and scouting have been in existence for more than 30 years. Again, no excuses intended but just hard cold facts. It's easy for some of us to sit back at our PCs and second guess FO drafts and transactions because we're not accountable or in the spotlight. If in our mocks, we bomb on some of our picks, we don't have to answer to the millions of other fans of team like Phil and his scouting department do.
Sorry, I'm still 100% behind Phil Savage and the rest of you can complain all you want but, I would love to see how some of you would perform in his position. One thing I don't agree with him on, is that he's claims that scouting does not take up as much time as people think and he has plenty of time to devote to his other GM duties. I would like to see us sign a veteran NFL guy on as a consultant who knows the in's and out's on building a winner. I would like to see Ernie Accorsi or Tom Donahoe to name two guys who I think could help Phil out.

Phil said when he was hired that we would not be able to address every area right away, and I like everyone else was disappointed that the OL especially was not top priority but, I'm sure PS had his reasons in his drafting and as I'm committed to giving him my full support for 5 years, then that's good enough for me.

Finally, it's a no brainer as most of us know here by now that the interior lines will be a number one priority in the up coming draft. The only exception being maybe if a blue chip RB such as Adrian Peterson, Oklahoma is available when we select. I would not be surprised at all if Phil trades our #1 pick so we can pick up more OL/DL in 2007 draft. JMHO

The Browns stink because they don't have a very good OL; a front 7 in D which is not stopping the run; and the QB position is not solidified. Some of that may improve with experience.

They may be young in football experience, immature in the winning process, (and in the media,) but this team is dominated at the line on both sides of the ball by just about any decent team. Can't run the ball, can't stop the run, can't get pressure on the QB and can't pass protect to speak of. Fix that and you fix the turnover ratio. Fix that and this team gets a chance to mature and grow and learn how to win. There is no identity, no consitancy because of the play at the lines. JMHO

Thanks!! I too feel that now is the time to give the FO the 5 years they said they would need. Through my 43 years of being a Browns fan, I am tired of seeing us rebuild every 2 or 3 years. IMO we need to finally sit tight and build this thing right.

We all knew that we had way too many holes to get corrected in just 2 years, so it should not have shocked anyone we are playing the way we do. We have been competitive in some games and are too young to know how to close them out. We have had some games that have been disasters too.

It's hard to remember that your objective is to drain the swamp when your up to your arse in aligators <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Hmm.. My info from the NFLPA shows that the average NFL career lasts 3 and a half seasons. If we are averaging 4.89 years of experience, then we are above the norm for experience are we not?

http://www.nflpa.org/Faqs/NFL_HopefulsFaq.aspx

How long do most NFL careers last?
The average length of an NFL career is about 3 and a half seasons. Although there are some exceptional players who have long careers that extend 10 or twelve seasons and beyond, most players only stay active for about three seasons. Players leave the game because of injury, self-induced retirement, or being cut by the team

3 year career takes into account anyone who signs an NFL contract, I believe.
That includes UDFA and other fringe players that aren't good enough to stick around very long - they drag that average down.

I don't think we're that horribly young on average. We're a decent mix of youth and vets, but most of our vets are well passed their prime while most of our key players (best talent) are very young.

We clearly lack the preferred mix, but I don't think our average experience is going to show that.

It is a bit damning that the two "oldest" areas of the team are also areas we don't have any real young prospects.

We better hope the young ones we get in the future can step in a play and we forget this "redshirt" concept Phil has introduced.

His name escapes me at the moment, but we better hope that 4th round guard we drafted gained from his redshirt experience....if not, we have a big problem.

Sowells.

This is of course quite correct.


Also quite agreed.. I don't think we are that horribly young either, and your point about a preferred mix is well taken.

Saint - I just went the Browns Roster and copied data to a spreadsheet. I eliminated the Rooks and just averaged years experience after that from players on the Active Roster, Practise Squad etc.

The first figure of 4.89 years is not really accurate as I left out Perkins who has 2 years experience and adding him would bring it down even more but nothing significantly. I guess someone here could if they wanted to; go to another teams website and do the same just to see how they average out. I really couldn't care though as I'm only interested in what the Browns average out as a young team with little experience albeit, they do have a few old war horses. Another thing and this might be even more salient to our status, is the average years of experience on our coaching staff as a whole. And, that is a significant factor especially in the interior lines, although we do have a HC that has many years of experience in the D area. JMHO

Thanks for the help.

I remember it this morning, but I sure couldn't yesterday afternoon. <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I hear that Sowells is really struggling.

Don't buy into that red-shirt comment. LOL....this isn't college, it is the NFL. Why isn't DQ or Wimbley being red-shirted? Why wasn't Leon being red-shirted last year? Some will say that playing offensive line is more complicate. I say........more complicated than playing QB? LMAO at the spin doctors.

Think about this. I believe Andruzzi won't play today. Lennie F. will take his place, but don't you think it would be a good idea to get Sowells a series or two in this meaningless game? We are not going to the playoffs. What possible reason would we have for not playing him? Ya' think it might be that he stinks and might get our QB killed?

Damn. I went back to read my words because I thought I made it clear we shouldn't buy into that idea....and I didn't.

I said..



I intended it to read we SHOULD forget this redshirt concept.

I agree...that is a crock.

Sorry for being unclear. I wasn't trying to say that you believed in the red-shirt comment. I was just informing you that Sowells is not close to being ready and I got a little dig in on those who act like the red-shirt comment is valid.

OK......I just sent you a PM on the matter....it would really bother me if you thought I agreed with that BS.

I feel better now! <img src="/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif" alt="" />

Savage really needs to stop saying red-shirt. Whether in little 'quotes' or not.

It may be what is actually happening and it may be the right thing to do, but it goes over about as well as Botch's 'gut feeling'.

I guess he HAS to say something at times...and saying that player X is not ready or up-to-speed may actually be worse given the players "ahead" of him on the depth chart. (See Sowells v. any-other-guard-who-plays and Wilson v. Dropcutt in particular.)

If these two guys in particular are measurably worse than the guys ahead of them, then we may have an even bigger depth problem than we think.

Savage is just saying the things he feels he needs to say.

I have a question.

Did Savage ever specifically say that Sowells was being red-shirted this year?

I never read that. I did read that he passed on offensive linemen in the draft because you need to red-shirt them and he wanted to bring in veteran FA linemen to protect Frye.

I'm wondering if certain people are simply using that particular comment to defend Savage and to imply that the plan was to never play Sowells this year ....and to suggest that he will be ready next year. <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />

Or.........did Savage ACTUALLY say that Sowells was being red-shirted? I'm sure someone will have a link for that.

Vers,

I'm not really sure anymore with the way things get reported these days.

It's possible that Savage said it ONCE during the draft...which is what I think you said you remember...and then never said it again. But the media seems to report as if it is a regular Savage term.

I just hate the word because it shoots down my hopes for a player...making me think redshirt-in-NFL = bust and;

I think it sends a wrong message to the player. Oh don't worry, we'll bring you along slow and protect you from those big,bad guys (that you can't hang with), and see if you'll be ready next year.

I realize that maybe Savage has to say something. I also realize that some guys really NEED to sit for a year and redshirt is a term that most fans understand...I just cringe whenever I hear it...regardless of who says it.

I guess I like "project" better...but if we ever called a 3rd rounder a project...well I don't need to say it.

At the same time, I'm afraid Wilson and Sowells - in spite of their draft position - will become projects in the mold of others like McMillan and Perkins.

If we have major question marks from guys picked 5th thru free agency we say project.

If we have major question marks from guys picked 3rd-4th we redshirt 'em.

If we have major question marks from guys picked 1st-2nd we simply don't admit it.<img src="/images/graemlins/naughtydevil.gif" alt="" />

I can't pull it up, but Savage without question talked about this being a redshirt year of sorts for Sowells.

i think he did say it, and it wasen't too long ago in a press conference iirc....redshirted was the term used

i'm guessing about a month ago...

way back in the summer i believe he said he would challenge for a job in 07...

all i can find is a transcript of the presser from obr...


i know links to message boards aren't allowed, but this imo is alittle different as its a transcript of a presser....not personal opinion....

i'll just post the applicable part....

(On why the offensive line hasn?t been addressed in the draft) ? ?First of all, in ?05, we went out and signed Cosey Coleman and Joe Andruzzi. When we got here, we had to do something. In the draft, we took the best player available ? Braylon Edwards, the best athlete available ? Brodney Pool and then the chance to get a quarterback in the third round so you do that. There was really no opportunity to address the offensive line. Especially when we signed the two guards, you have Ryan Tucker and Jeff Faine, so you feel like maybe we can get through it for a year. With younger skill players and a veteran line, you feel like they might have a better chance to succeed in that way. I don?t think any of us would advocate drafting a rookie lineman, unless it?s a high pick like D?Brickashaw Ferguson or Nick Mangold and throwing him into the mix. Isaac Sowells, we drafted him last year, more or less to be red shirted. We knew that the day we drafted him. It?s going to take injuries and circumstances for us to be convinced. Let?s put Isaac Sowells in the game in front of Charlie Frye. It?s just not going to happen. Now, we get to ?06 and all we hear is defense and pass rush. We chose outside backer then inside backer and in the third round, we chose to get a receiver. As you look at our team, I don?t know what is going to happen with Dennis Northcutt. I don?t know if Joshua Cribbs can turn into a receiver. I don?t know how the Joe Jurevicius signing is going to turn out. I don?t know if Braylon Edwards is going to come back off of an ACL. You take the best player available. Travis Wilson is in a situation now where ultimately, he might be playing for us at some point this year. I think the expectation of draft picks and I think that is where everyone is a little out of whack. When you draft guys in the first round, there is an expectation that they are going to start their first year. That goes without saying. Second round picks, I would say conservatively, within two years. D?Qwell Jackson had a chance to come in here and start immediately. Is he a little ahead of schedule? Probably so. Brodney Pool on the other had, we had signed Russell, had Chris Crocker on the roster and we didn?t know what Sean Jones was going to do. He is probably our most consistent player on defense. Now, Brodney Pool through circumstance, not because he?s not a good player, really isn?t getting as many opportunities as D?Qwell Jackson did as a second round pick. Third round guys, I think in about three years they are contributing to the team. We have one guy who is the starting quarterback and another who is behind starters who at the time we drafted him, one guy was coming off injuries and the other one?s contract is coming up. That is why it hasn?t been addressed these first two years.?

linky