DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Ogbah

A reputable source used to be enough. Now it's never enough and people wish to dissect it like Bill Clinton saying, "It depends on what 'is' is."

It's ridiculous. Dorsey plainly stated he didn't really use analytics in his first draft here. Maybe that's changed, maybe it hasn't. I don't know about that part. But he said he didn't use them, he didn't have them around in the draft room like we saw before and the case is closed.

All except those who fly in the face of all the evidence because they don't want to accept it. One poster even tried to undermine the great team Dorsey built in K.C. to try and prove a point. You can't force some people to use common sense.

The thing is that the dude who actually had inside information is being discredited and the guys who are just making things up are not even being questioned.

Grimm was right about one thing.........it's not worth it to fight w/some people.

I am not discrediting the article or him. I think I posted the article in the first place. I am just saying it shouldn't be viewed as the Bible. There was some connecting of the dots, with a few middle dots missing.

Dorsey has said he "didn't say that" when questioned about the nerd comment in reference to Depo.

All coaches/scouts have been using analytics ever since the 40 was used as a measuring stick, and pushing a weight was recorded.

Depo isn't making the picks. He is simply providing advanced information as a tool to help make better informed picks and highlight guys who the metrics say could become a good player.

I am sure many years ago some old time scouts made fun of coaches who used "film" help make better decisions.

People made fun of Paul Brown for the systems he had in place.


Heck, Dorsey has used analytics for a long time. It's been reported he places high value on explosion and looks for long jump numbers and high jump numbers. He can file through vast numbers of papers, or simply call Depo to get the 60 best numbers this year,inside a hour.

Then the scouts can watch tape to see if the tape matches the numbers, or if the numbers match the tape. It can be a two way street. Sometimes the tape takes you away from a player with good numbers, and sometimes the numbers make the tape look a whole lot better on a guy you initially brushed off.

They say tape doesn't lie. Well, performance numbers don't lie either.

I am shocked that you put more stock into the opinions of guys like device and Memphis than the dude w/inside access.

Take a freaking hike.

How about we take the words of Dorsey? Instead of a guy who wrote something after talking to a guy who supposedly talked to Dorsey.

This article is about him using analytics while still with the Chiefs in 2014:

Link

An excerpt:


Another:


Let's keep pretending Dorsey's a Luddite because some ESPN hack says so, though.

I'll admit this article probably has some skew in the quotes from the company, but at least it has direct quotes from Dorsey.

LOL...actually, I am. I am a little late this morning but heading out for my 5 mile walk.

That's what Dorsey plainly stated, eh?

Interesting stuff, Grimm. Thanks.

Thanks for providing the quotes. Why didn't you include the other ones? I want to add that I never claimed that Dorsey didn't use analytics. My position was that he didn't use them as much as guys like peen and device are claiming and that it was "limited" use. I also talked about none of us "knows" how much we actually use them.

Also, it is not fair to totally dismiss the comments Wickersham made about last year's draft for a couple of reasons. No one has challenged them and people are repeating negative comments about Hue as if they are gospel. Let me guess, some of them are true and others are complete hogwash?

We can also go to another article about the OBJ trade. Dorsey was there. He invited Freddie. Any mention of the analytics department.

You didn't come into this discussion w/an open mind. You engaged me in this conversation to win the argument. You did the same thing a few years ago when you insisted that there wasn't a position on the field for Joey Bosa or how I was wrong for not liking the hire of Art Broyles. It's why I stopped responding to you. And it's why I'm going to stop again.

I tried to keep it focused because if I put the whole thing many people wouldn't take the time to read it.

I've also never said they used a ton of analytics on draft day. I questioned what "limited" meant. Pit said Dorsey didn't use them at all. You went right along with it.




I'm not totally dismissing them. I read the article several times. I thought about what was actually said. I thought about who was saying it, who his sources were (they were "anonymous"). You're right on my take about the negative comments about Hue. Some are probably true and some are probably greatly exaggerated due to frustration.

I'm sure you'll love this. It's my suspicion that Wickersham's source for a lot of the juicy quotes was HUE. Cozying up to the media while throwing someone else under the bus would seem to fit his modus operandi. Trying to line up the analytics guys for the firing squad instead of him sounds about right at that point in time. It's just my honest speculation based on Hue's actions and those of his hangers on since he's been here, sorry, I don't have an "inside source."



What does that have to do with anything?



If by my mind being open you mean I'm just gonna eat everything up hook, line, and sinker, I suppose you're right, it wasn't that. I keep a limited amount of room available for the sports equivalent of a national inquirer story.

If by open mind you mean actually take the time to look at it from different angles before gobbling down, I'm pretty open minded. You should try it.

I said I liked Bosa as a player, but didn't think he was a good fit for us with Horton in charge.
I liked Wentz, but still thought Hue knew what he was talking about with regards to QBs, so wasn't adamant about it. There were some question marks.
I liked Ramsey if we stayed or Doctson if we traded back.

Re: the Briles mess, I said to wait for the facts before crucifying the guy. Shame on me, I didn't want to rush to judgment.

Feel free to keep bringing up old stuff that doesn't make you look any better. Maybe it'll distract from the rest of the thread and how you try to run rough shod over anyone who has the gall to disagree with you on a small point while actually largely agreeing with you on the bigger picture.

You're changing your argument and putting words in mouths as you typically do...


Also, I think you're trying to twist what was actually said and are trying to deceive people (which you also typically do)....

Kitchens wasn't "invited" by Dorsey to be there for the trade talks, it was my understanding that they were having a staff meeting as they typically do before free agency and the OBJ trade talks were ongoing. The Browns had to have their meeting and Dorsey had to talk trade for OBJ. Nowhere did I see the word "invite."

You're trying to make it sound like Dorsey invited Kitchens to sit on these talks, which from my understanding is not the case at all. You're making it sound like Dorsey said, "Hey Freddie, come to my office, we're going to discuss trading for OBJ with my buddy Gettleman."

I'm not sure why you keep doing these things and then attempt to criticize others for doing it especially when they're not. If I did what you did, you'd be all over me, pointing fingers calling me disingenuous, so please just stop your antics already.

Vers and I have had our differences of opinion, but I think you're going a little overboard.

You're reading a bit much into his use of the word "invited."

Not that you can't disagree. Disagree with the argument without trying to guess someone else's intent and making things personal.

I may have gotten a bit close (over) to that line, but let's all walk away from it.

----
The Bosa/Ogbah draft came up earlier. It was mentioned that I didn't "like" Bosa.

I wasn't super high on Ogbah either. I thought he played too stiff. My opinion didn't change while he was here.

He was a solid player for us. His draft slot seemed a bit high, though. It wasn't a particularly great year for DEs outside of the top couple.

Ngakoue did last a little bit.

Unbelievable. I posted that I liked analytics several times. I even countered Diam when I said they should be a tool, a supplement to the tape by the football guys. I said I used them in my own profession. The thing I argued was how much of a role they play.

I'm need to leave this thread. It's beyond frustrating and I curse Diam for highlight analytics and then disappearing after you and your partners began their typical gang-up on one poster crap.

You're right. I see the angle you're making... Not necessarily "invited" as in sent an invitation, but invited as in he wasn't going to run out of the room when the phone rang. If that's how it was intended, I would apologize.

However, his post also commented on the analytic team. I mean, they may or may not have been there. He was meeting with what I would have thought was the coaching staff. I doubt that he'd put Gettleman on hold so he could run down the analytic team to listen in on the trade talks. Kitchens just happened to be there.

I think to word it as if he was "invited" is an attempt to be disingenuous. And no, it's not a big. But you're not in a war with these guys who continually call you a liar and then pull the same crap they accuse me of doing (which I don't).

One would think it would be easy to find a crying emoji on the internet.

You're directing your comment at the wrong poster.

Obviously you didn't read the post I was responding to.

Yes....obviously.

Depo’s been out of NY for 3 or 4 years now and they still STINK ....

NO WORLD SERIES RINGS FOR DEPO or any team he’s been associated with ... he did RUIN THE DODGERS ... destroyed them ... thats a FACT ....

Grimm thanks for trying to answer ... NOT one other of the analy0stics guys even tried ....

Bull thanks for the article ... good stuff ....

Vers it seems u cuss me at least daily on here over the last few months ... i’m used to it ... *L* ...

I’m learning .... thanks to the few who have contributed to that .... that includes u Vers in your reply to me when i asked the question ....

I’ll keep reading those and IGNORING the REST OF THE CRAP ....

Thats how i enjoy the board ..

As I have said, you need both.

I agree, when Sashi was here we didn't have a football guy. I don't think Andrew Berry was all that strong. He was the guy.

My only beef with you is the thinking that Depo and what he does has no use....it does....I am glad you are starting to understand what they do and how it can be a valuable tool in evaluations.

Vers got all mad at me after I made what I thought was a very balanced post and told me to take a hike. I still don't understand that one??

I am happy as heck we have John heading up the football group. I am happy as heck we have Depo heading up the analytics dept.

The two of them should give us the best shot at drafting and finding the best players possible. And when I say the two of them, in the end it is Johns call. I am not saying Depo deserves equal billing. He is the supporting actor in this production. I hope that helps clear things up.

Nothing is 100% except death and your yearly tax bill. Depos numbers don't always work, scouts film study doesn't always work. If both teams work together, which I think they are, we might be able to eliminate 25% of the bad picks and at least get a decent player.

That is big my friend. In any given year you are going to have 2 bad picks. If over 2 years we can turn 4 bad picks in to 3 bad picks and gain a decent player, we win.

Somehow I have been painted in to a Sashi lover and all in on analytics. I am not. I am very happy with the position we now hold.

Go Browns.

Berry's a quality personnel guy. He was the reason we drafted Ogunjobi.

However, he was also a holdover in a front office with an analytics guy in Depodesta, and 2 high ranking guys in Wolf and Highsmith, so his path forward was blocked at every route.

I think he'll do well in Philly, and really help them.