DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Episode 9- Rise of Skywalker

Seems like an odd title for something that's apparently less current, if they are going in succession.
Are they going in succession? (Can't read white boxes.)

Ultimate Spoiler, I think it was all spelled out in the last movie, only intrigue is how the new reveal is done.

[s][/s]

I think I mentioned after the last movie that the whole "Your parents are nobody" was an attempted misdirection. They wanted one of those "I am your father" moments, but since everyone was pretty much already guessing that she was Luke's daughter before the movie, they wanted to throw everyone off the scent and set it up for the third movie instead.

Unfortunately for them, everyone has realized what a complete trash movie TLJ was, so now they had to make the final movie title completely obvious, just in the hope to try and draw a small bit of interest back to the franchise. I watched the trailer, and didn't even feel the least bit excited about it.

The obvious franchise "saving" move would be to make Rey Luke's daughter, who had trained as a Jedi until she was 5 or so and had to be hidden away to protect her from Ren. It would at least help to erode her Mary Sue-ness of the previous episodes just a tad. Of course, Disney just will do something dumb, like make her Darth Vader reincarnated, so they can "subvert our expectations" and think of themselves as clever.

What made The Last Jedi trash to you?

Canto Bight could've been better, but I loved every single aspect of the movie except that. The Rey, Kylo, and Snoke fight was the best fight of the entire series.

For what it's worth, I love curve balls. I love when directors don't give the expected resolution, and it's probably a huge reason why I love stuff from David Lynch.



It also seems, as proven by the rotten tomatoes review bomb , that fragile men and nerds took offense to Canto Bight and diversity. I hope Abrahms doesn't pander to get those people back because Star Wars, let alone any other form of media, doesn't need backwards individuals for support.

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About the trailer,

I hate that Palpatine is back. I don't want another nostalgia movie ala The Force Awakens.

Umm....pretty much everything minus one scene.

I love Star Wars but The Last Jedi was a terrible movie. The prequels are arguably better.

Just a guess....

This is about closing out the Skywalker saga to me. The Rise of Skywalker means Luke, not Rey. There is a quote in the trailer that says "You're never really gone". I think Luke as a force ghost, like Obi-Wan, will have a significant impact. Plus you hear what sounds like Snoke laugh at the end. So he may not be gone either operating as a force ghost as well.

"Rise" might mean ascension in some religious context, not Rey's coming of age as a Jedi.

I think this movie is about closing the book on the Skywalkers, not kick starting it again by introducing Rey as a new Skywalker.

JMO.

Damn, they managed to did up Billy D Williams somewhere. I wonder if he's the next sacrificial old guy.

As for TLJ, I just want to know how they "dropped bombs" in space.

Memphis, that was palpatine laughing at the end.

I've enjoyed almost every Star Wars movie except episode one... I thought last Jedi was really enjoyable... of course I enjoyed Han Solo too.... can't wait for this one

You're right. That does sound more like him.

im very disappointed the franchise didnt even to bother to include a bounty hunter or 2 or 3 in the last 2 movies.
to.this day they are still the most fascinating characters in the SW universe.
having Boba Fett or Bossk show up chasing Han Solo would have been awesome.

It is him. He made a stage appearance when they premiered the trailer.

Just about everything. And I'm not even talking about the low speed chases, or bombs dropping in space or "women in command" stuff that some people have thrown out there. I had no problem with any of that, and if it was a good movie, I'm guessing other people would have no problem with it either. Even "A New Hope" had plot holes, but since everybody loved the movie so much, they find ways to explain those (or turn them into full feature movies), rather than point them out as flaws.


Here are some of the huge problems with TLJ:

- Theme and Pacing. The movie starts out jumping straight into a tense situation with a potential space battle about to happen. Rebel leaders are gravely worried and the Empire is ready to attack. But then it quickly switches to mom-jokes and comedy. Then back to a space battle, where Poe strangely takes out all the space cannons in one fell swoop and then orders a bomber attack. Then it's back to comedy with BB-8 doing a ridiculous finger in the dam routine straight out of looney toons. Next, they try to do somber sacrifice scene with a character we know nothing about, giving her life to release the bombs and kill the enemy ship.

And it continues like that the whole movie. It can't decide what kind of movie it wants to be and it's all over the place. Some parts of it feel like it wants to be Saving Private Ryan, other parts look like they came straight out of SpaceBalls.

- The Characters, for the most part are terrible. Usually, you want your characters to have some sort of arc, and you know, actually tell a story that develops them as characters. Preferably across all three chapters of a trilogy. Your main characters are Rey, Poe and Finn, as sort of established in the last movie. Rey is textbook Mary Sue. She does nothing to establish or earn her powers and is instantly better than everyone else before her. Poe is an good pilot in Force Awakens and stays pretty much exactly the same by the end of TLJ. Finn could of potentially been a great "new" kind of character. He's a defected Stormtrooper that could of had any number angles put into his story. Does he worry about his other stormtrooper brothers? Is he conflicted with his choices? Could Phasma have been some sort of Nemesis that brainwashed him into a Stormtroop and he grows to eventually best? Nope, he just sort of joins the Resistance through no real motivations, beats Phasma in TFA and then beats her again in TLF. He could of had a dramatic suicide death into the door cannon to "save his friends", but is saved at the last second by Rose, because "we have to save our friends" (???). He has no influence at all on the overall story and is just along for the ride.

All the other characters are pretty much useless and uninteresting as well. The bad guys are comically inept. They scream orders like lunatics, make stupid tactical decisions, and throw temper-tantrums like 3 year-olds. Overall there's no real tension or need for characters to grow, because the bad guys are already morons and the good guys are already over-powered enough as it is. It used to be that the bad guys were the over-powered badarses, and the good guys were the plucky little guy that had to learn and grow as characters to the point where they were finally good enough to overcome the steep odds. Here, the good guys are already good, and the bad guys are incompetent idiots.

- The plot. What is it? We thought it was Rey needs training to learn to be a Jedi and we wanted to find out more about her past. We cared about Snoke's background and how an insanely powerful sith-lord came out of nowhere to exist. Instead, Snoke is a nobody and is dead. Rey trains herself and is already better than her main rival. We're told she came from nothing and nobody really cares about her backstory anymore. So throughout the entirety of TLJ, we've reduced the Resistance from a few hundred to a handful. Nobody has made any real character growth. We killed off two of the more interesting bad guys that we might of cared about without explaining anything about them, and we're left in the same spot as we were when the movie started with the Resistance on the run from the First Order. Why should anyone care about what's going to happen with the next movie?

And that's just a start of all the problems with it. There's hours and hours of videos on Youtube pointing out all the major flaws and issues with the movie. Some, I agree might be a little sexist, but overall, they point out some huge story-telling problems with the film. Yet Disney and other just dismiss them as "man babies who have a problem with powerful women". Give me a break. Nobody had any problems with General Leah or Mon Mothma previously. They just like good story telling.

Which one scene? The horribly choreographed throne room fight scene? (Seriously, you should see video break-downs on this. Guys deliberately miss should-be kill shots, Rey throws a single kick and knocks down three guys) ... Or the light-speed ram that sort of ruins all of Star Wars lore from before and after? (Oh they built another Death Star? Just light-speed ram it.)

Is it just me or has Disney managed to completely ruin the Star Wars franchise? I have too many complaints and it would take too long but here's a short list of why I don't see any Disney produced Star Wars movies. If you enjoy them more power to you but in my opinion they're not what they used to be.

-New characters are overpowered (Rey especially).
-New characters don't show a lot of change through out the story.
-New characters don't necessarily have to overcome trials and tribulations.
-New characters aren't shown defeated.
-There's way too much weird humor in the Disney movies. Its like there are jokes in the movie that happen when I'm trying to watch the movie and take the story seriously. It REALLY KILLS THE MOOD. It kills the suspense.
-The new movies are too cookie cutter and they all hit the same story\script beats in a "Disney" sort of way. They're all too feel good, good guys win in the end, are never defeated, or the movie ends in question of them being able to rebound.
-Along with hitting all the Disney story beats, it makes the movies incredibly predictable and I'm not surprised by anything in the movie, AT ALL. I mean AT ALL. With that being said, the movies have been rounded to make them some sort of "family" type of movie that appeals to a wider audience and not just hardcore fans. I understand that this may make more money but its ruined the whole franchise of what Star Wars was, is, and should be.
-Token characters just for the sake of being there. Some don't actually help drive the story so nobody knows what purpose they serve and are wasted.
-No risks are taken with the story, its very tame and safe. Nothing unexpected happens.
-The frequency in which the movies are coming out comes across as a blatant cash grab. The other movies, which in my opinion are NOT part of the canon is another attempt to just get more money with hasty and bad writing. Good example of this is Solo.

All of this is just my opinion but I probably won't be seeing another Star Wars movie for quite sometime as long as Disney is running things.

Disney’s Star Wars - May The Farce Be With You.

It's a dark movie. It needs small moments of brevity to lighten what is going to happen at the end.




Rey's arc-Who am I, and it turns out it doesn't matter.

Kylo's arc-Do I want light or dark?

Poe's arc-I will rebel, and then shown why my hubris will undo me.

Finn's arc-Who do I want to help, and why does it matter? This is contrasted quite well with Rose's.

Leia's arc-How do I lead?

Luke's arc-What should I do with my knowledge and power.

That's just a few arcs...I'm not sure how they're unclear or confusion?



So it's okay for male superheroes to be overpowered but not Rey?

This Mary Sue nonsense is nothing but blatant sexism, and certain men feeling "assaulted" because a new female lead does more than old Luke.

More about the Mary Sue nonsense here.




A sizable amount of the fandom got quite annoyed at JJ for introducing someone like Snoke. It was a complete retread of Emperor Palpatine. I'm glad he's dead.



No one ever complained about Anakin in The Phantom Menace hopping in a star fighter for his first time, and then taking down a Trade Federation capital ship.

See sexism argument from above.

Her backstory should be meaningless. No more chosen nonsense.



Finn finds a cause to fight for.

Poe's hubris gets to him.

Luke decides to fight for something.

Rey settles on not caring about her past.

Kylo feels conflicted about light vs dark.




Both were retreads of past concepts. Snoke was a crappy version of Palpatine, and Phasma was a weird Boba Fett type that was rejected Kylo Ren concept art.



Because Rian Johnson set up the franchise to get away from nostalgia. Looks like Abrahms is unfortunately taking us back there with Death Star ruins and Palpatine.

A

At least you recognize it comes from there.



They try to cape for "but plot holes" when really their true outrage is Rey. Many popcorn flicks contain massive plot holes, yet those never get any criticism to the level of Star Wars.



Disney never took a position on the criticism. They rightfully ignored indignant nerds.



Leia or Mothmah never weilded a light saber, piloted a star fighter, or truly saved the day in a way Luke, Han, or anyone else from the series did.

I'd argue many want Luke in the role Rey found herself in, and this remains a big part of the negativity.

I have enjoyed episode 7 & 8 way more than the prequels. I like the new characters. They cast the actor(ess) well. The humor does get a bit campy at times. And not as natural as in the original series.

I miss Han.

I also enjoy the Rey character. It's nice to see a strong woman in a lead role.

I'm looking forward to this movie.

Eve's a mary sue.

Nope. I am so flawed.

Moments of brevity is one thing. Yo-yoing between serious and ridiculous is another. In the original, when Han Solo joked that he was fine, all fine, on the intercom, it was during a break in the action and he was doing something within the context of his character. When Poe is engaged in a tense battle against a dreadnought and BB-8 is playing slapstick plug-the-leak behind him, it completely messes with the tone and pacing of the movie.



Yep exactly. All terrible character stories. The main character of the story is supposed to be Rey, and even you're saying her arc doesn't matter! Why should we care about any of these guys? None of these guys really grew as characters across TLJ. Some of them even went backwards.



Like who for example? Most over-powered male super heroes are just as boring. In most movies, a character has to "earn" their way to the top through training and failure. It's only when they overcome their own flaws and fears do they rise to the top do they complete their story arc.



Calling it "blatent sexism" is just straight out of the SJW playbook, where you just ignore facts and go straight to name-calling. It really has nothing to do with females, and you can have a male version of the same thing called a "Gary Stu". It just tends to happen more with female characters as the origins of the trope came female fan fiction, where girls would tend to write themselves into certain story-universes, making themselves more powerful and more liked than already established characters. They had no real character growth or reason for them being that powerful, they just were.

This is the problem with Rey. She has no background or explanation to be as powerful as she is. She collected junk on a planet and sold it for food for 10+ years. Yet, when she jumps into the Falcon for the first time she can fly it better than anyone before her. When she grabs a light-saber for the first time and can beat a well trained sith lord. She trains herself, and never really has any difficulty in any situation. If she finds herself in a difficult spot, she just gets herself out of it, because she's Rey. Not because her character growth allowed her overcome that situation. That's terrible story telling.



So bad story writing and character development from the previous episode is "fixed" by just off'ing him with no explanation as to his origins. Got it. Talk about a retcon.



What are you talking about? PLENTY of people have talked about that. Red Letter Media built an empire making videos discussing about how awful the prequels were, and bringing up things like that. Even in this case, most of young Anakin's "success" was attributed to dumb luck, which is it's own awful story-telling element by itself. He spins around and avoid fire because he just "tries it". He gets shot down anyway, and accidentally lands in a hanger bay. Then starts pushing buttons and accidentally blows up the main-reactor which for some reason is sitting right next to the open hanger. Woohoo, go Anakin.

You can at least somewhat explain his proficiency as a pilot because he was pod-racing for years as he lived on Tattoine. He didn't jump into a Naboo fighter after years of doing nothing but sweeping dirt floors. Master the art of flying within a couple of minutes, and then blow up Control ship because of his masterful fighter pilot skills.



Her backstory can be meaningless, but when she jumps from nobody to "most powerful jedi in the universe", you need to have some explanation. Otherwise it's just crappy storytelling.



When you get a multi-billion dollar franchise that's built on the foundations of that same nostalgia, you should continue to build on it, not piss on it. Disney just wants to shove their own characters to the forefront while stepping over that which built the franchise, and then want us to like their characters because they have a "Star Wars" label attached to them and appeared in the same movie with those other guys that we actually liked from before.



Disney itself hasn't said anything (which would be franchise suicide), but that "man-babies" quote came straight from Rian Johnson himself on twitter. Kathleen Kennedy (the producer) has also said similar stuff about how nerd can't handle a strong female lead. Many of the people in their fold have outright insulted fans in social media, calling them the same things you're trying to say. "Oh, they're just indignant, sexist nerds". No, they're fans of the series that like a good story to be told, and are the sole reason you're getting a paycheck right now. Bob Iger (Disney CEO) allegedly had a conference call with Kennedy and nearly fired her on the spot for her cavalier attitude towards the fans. They've cooled off the social media insults considerably since then.



Again, you're wrong. Most people would have no problem with Rey if it was explained that she was a daughter of Luke, was trained for several years to be a Jedi, and then was separated for her protection when the academy fell. She then did other things while in isolation to learn things like piloting, hand-to-hand combat, etc. She then fought with Kylo and actually lost, because you know, she's a raw, untrained Jedi while Kylo has been doing that stuff for awhile. She then goes to Luke gets trained, figures some things out, and comes back and beats Ren. You know ... character development?

Instead, she's awesome and can do everything because ... she's a woman?

There's big counter-points to the whole, "You guys just can't handle a powerful woman lead" argument. Sarah Connor (in the original Terminator) and Ellen Ripley in Alien. Both are female leads, both are liked by audiences and both have their struggles but eventually overcome huge odds against them to prevail in the end. That's what made them good characters.
It wasn't because they suddenly became stronger and more powerful than the Terminator and Alien Queen and just beat them in a straight up fight.

The big problem with Rey is that she doesn't follow a "Hero's Journey":



There's no helper, there's no mentor, but most importantly, there's no "abyss". She goes straight from jumping into the adventure to returning a hero, and with no explanation.

In the original episode, Luke is established immediately as a good pilot even through one-line of dialog early in the movie. We know he's been doing it for years and he's good. We learn he's strong with the force because of his lineage. Obi-wan opens him up to the force and he learns a bit. He destroys the first death-star, mostly through his own set-up ability as a good pilot and with a little bit of his new force knowledge as an assist. He then goes to Yoda and get further training. He comes back to confront Vader and gets his butt kicked and his hand chopped off because he's NOT a Mary Sue-type character. He's essentially just a rookie Jedi. He learns from his mistakes. Comes back and eventually prevails ... across three movies.

Rey jumps straight from nobody to hero and Disney want us to like her because of that. It doesn't matter that she's a female. You could make her a boy and call her Wesley Crusher. People would still not like the character.

I agree. I don’t like Last Jedi.

To me, so far, 3, 4 and 5 good. 2 and 7 ok. 1 and 6 pretty bad. 8 horrible. Rogue One great. Solo not as bad as it was made out to be. It was meh.

I will see 9 because I have seen the others. But I have 0 expectations.

Rwy is a cookie cutter female hero. nothing original or exciting about her
character.
I would rather seen Ronda Rousey.

If I am not mistaken, I heard BF was getting his own movie.

You know its a movie, right? Your complaining about a kick knocking down 3 people in a movie where intergalactic space travel is happening with aliens possessing a supernatural force that allows to control minds and move things telepathically. I think the kick is the last of the concerns. . . .

I like Rey, I think she is a pretty good actress and is badarse in the movie. The thing I DONT like about it, and what I think the others are trying to get at, is that she has no real Jedi Training other than a few weeks with Luke, opposed to Kylo who had years with Luke. She may have untapped power, but she shouldn't be able to release it so easily and "just all of a sudden" become OP. She should have to have shown some work for it, and extensive training.

shes like the Mount Union QB who was undrafted
and the day of the Super Bowl you say "OK YOU CAN START"

The problem with episode 8 is you can tell it had a different person writing the story than episode 7. It was basically like, "Everythong you had planned for episode 8...yeah, we're not going to do that. We're going to do the opposite!" That might work for 1 or 2 plot points, but not the whole story. That is bad storytelling.

Biggest disappointment was Snoke; total waste of what was an interesting character. The whole thing just felt very disjointed from TFA. Horrible.

100% correct. Nothing about Rey is remotely intriguing in the slightest. She does not go through any struggle. I want to see her beat! I want to see her defeated! I want to see her on the verge of breaking!

Or I know, what if her character was actually in danger. What is she got hurt. Could you imagine if she got her freaking hand chopped off like Luke Skywalker? Never in a million years. No serious or dark events happen in these new movies. If they do its all just a tease and then the mood is broken up and the conflict is not as serious as originally thought.

#FakeCharacters #FakeConflicts

That's like your opinion, man.



It's not like she lived on her own on a desert planet in harsh environments.

Luke also wouldn't initially train her, and she had to prove her worth to him.

She also got captured by the First Order in TFA, fought back against Ren, and found a way out.

There's also the battle with Snoke and his people in TLJ.

Sorry Tasty, these are facts from the movie.



I find it odd that you seem to really want to see this character suffer. What other characters do you want to see suffer in other film industries?



I'm guessing you didn't watch The Force Awakens or The Last Jedi?



The hero worship is strong with you, padawan.

• Han Solo murdered during embrace with son.
• Luke Skywaler sacrifices his physical body to keep The Resistance going.
• A bunch of resistance troops go on a suicide mission against a First Order capital trip in the beginning of TLJ.
• Kylo's initial interrogation of Poe in TFA.

Excl, we're going to disagree on this. Many of your points come paraphrased from many of the "SJW is ruining Star Wars!" echo chambers. A lot of your points, especially the part about Iger being mad, come from places such as Brietbart, The Daily Caller, and right-wing sources.

Also, Disney extended Kennedy's contract.

I suggest you never watch anything from David Lynch. You wouldn't enjoy his style if you didn't enjoy The Last Jedi.

So because the same points are being used by anti-SJW's that makes them bad points? You know those things aren't mutually exclusive? You're using an association fallacy.

And to completely dispel the whole inane idea that people who hate the movie just can't handle a strong woman lead, I offer you Jyn Erso in Rogue One. For the most part, people put Rogue One in their top 3 or 4 Star Wars movies. It's also one of the most diverse Star Wars movies, with a Mexican, Pakistani, an African American and two Asian guys co-starring with a strong female lead.

And guess what? Nobody cared! It told a good story, it had the right amount of humor mixed into a well paced movie, and most importantly, it blended in FLAWLESSLY with the original movies. It didn't try to piss on them. Honestly, that's one of the bigger flaws with even the prequels. They did things that made you shake your head because it didn't really match the original trilogy. Vader built CPO?, Obiwan could force-sprint, but then never did it again? Midiclorians??

But the point being, Rogue One made you want to pop in a New Hope and watch it again. That's something most of the newer prequels and sequels have lacked. Nobody really cared that it had a strong female lead. Probably, because she acted like an actual strong female, and not girl straight out of a fan-fic that gets out of every situation just because she's magically OP whenever she needs to be.

Totally agree.

Jyn Erso was a great character. Rey had potential after Episode 7, but the director for Episode 8 did a horrible job with her character development. Maybe JJ can rectify it in the next episode but, yeah, Rey isn't anything special so far.

I think the actress that plays Rey is pretty decent seeing that Star Wars was her first major gig and all the pressure that comes with being part of the franchise. But the directing has been subpar.

Well said, Rocket.

That's a good point. It reminds me of those group stories you would make in 4 or 5th grade, where you'd start with one student, and they'd write one or two sentences of a new story. Then the next student would write the next one or two sentences to build on that, and so forth. Inevitably, there was always that one tool who would jump into the middle of the story with a sentence that went along the lines of, "Then a dragon appeared out of nowhere and burnt everyone to a crisp."

+1

Others have detailed all the problems with TLJ here already, but the above comment is the reason why there were so many problems. Why didn't Disney let JJ write and direct all three movies? Rian Johnson ruined this trilogy in my opinion. TLJ was a huge turd of a movie AND had franchise killing moment (okay, I'll add my biggest reason - when Vice Admiral Holdo turned the ship around and destroyed an entire fleet with her light speed attack...if that were possible, just send two or three ships at the Death Star in all previous movies, boom, movie over).

I was so mad at Disney, I didn't see Solo in the theater. I had seen every other Star Wars movie in a theater soon after it's release, even the original. I ended up liking Solo, but I couldn't bring myself to buy a ticket after TLJ. I haven't decided on #9 yet.

Funny story about Rogue One. Each time I saw it in the theater, I actually giggled like a little school girl during the fight on Jeddah where the AT-ST comes around the corner to fight against the rebels. One of the times my wife was with me, and she actually turned and looked at me and said "what the [blank] is wrong with you?"

And the last scene with Vader downright kicking ass? That may be my favorite few minutes of any movie I've ever watched.

Rogue One is at least tied for my first favorite Star Wars movie, if not outright winner.

I just thought of something...with the name being "Rise of Skywalker" and Palpatine also being involved, could we finally learn the true origins of Anakin Skywalker? The real event that led to the "Rise of Skywalker."