DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Duke Johnson asks to be traded

Got ya. That is true.

I want Duke on this team. He is an asset. I think one reason his production declined was the fact that Baker tends to go down field as much as possible. With the receiving core we have now, he will have a ton of space to work in, I wouldn't doubt that he is a big contributor early in the season.

does anyone know what the Browns record is when he ACTUALLY scores a TD?
I think he has 14 career TDS.
Im sure for a fact the Browns are under .500 when Duke finds the endzone.
point being is that in that 2 year span when the Browns were 1 and 31...opposing defenses didnt have to worry about Duke if he scored TDs or not. he didnt keep DC's up late at night in a panic.
the truth is Duke was a average player on offense that was below average at the skill positions
Dorsey comes in raises that level by 1000x.
Landry Beckham Hunt.
even Higgins has rose to the occasion.
there is nothing that DJ does better in this offense then anyone
else.
Chubb and Hunt can catch wheel routes swing passes all day.
DJ isnt even a capable kick returner.

Oh I think we as fans are idiots... but Dorsey has built a ton of trust in ymsle at least... I think he'll wait for wihqtever fair market value is... can't imagine he gives duke away

Dorsey isn't going to trade Duke for a bag of peanuts unless Dukes trade demands turn in to a circus act.

In trade, I think Duke hold the most value in a trade up scenario, a pick or two and Duke for a nice pick. I am not going to bicker on what those possibilities might or might not be, that is just how I see things.

This team has such a wealth of offensive assets. I'm not sure Freddie or really any coach could find way to keep them all happy, that would keep me up at night trying to get that part right.

Duke has done nothing but do whatever we've asked of him. And he's done it well.

He deserves his shot and I just don't think he's going to get a clean shot here. I'd hate to see him go, but of all the RB's we have, he's not the best of the bunch. Not sure who is, of course right now it's Chubb, but with Hunt, who knows what we have there and who knows if we will be able to retain him after the next season.

If he rehabs his reputation well enough, he'll be in demand.. So he may bolt.

It's a tough problem,, But if you gotta have a problem as a team, this is the one to have... Too many good players... Damn,,

Looking at Duke's limited production last year, there may be some incentive for both him, and the team, to showcase him a bit in hopes of increasing both his trade, and next contract, value.

With nobody else but Hilliard at RB until game 9, I think best value from Duke is to keep him till the trade deadline.

We got a fifth for Hyde, Duke should do better than that.

It's because you're isolating a single game and not looking at the entire body of work under both coaches. The game stats you posted was an outlier.

jc

I've always been of the mindset that you can't have too many good players. Not enough good players? That's a problem. Too many good players? Great! It's up to the coaching staff to divvy those touches up to help the team win. Injuries happen, players fatigue, Hunt is suspended for the first 8 games.

You don't really know what's going to happen in the NFL. Maybe Chubb gets hurt or regresses from his rookie year. I don't see anything that would point to that but these things do happen sometimes. I never saw why it was so urgent that we had get rid of Duke just because we ugpraded the talent in the backfield.

You're going to have at least 3 backs active on gameday anyway, why can't Duke be one of them? Especially when Hunt is going to be suspended 8 games. It's not like Duke is a workhorse back that needs 20+ carries a game. It seems like he's a good third back (and also third down back) and a useful member of the offense.

Move him around, do different things with him. Say we send out the following personnel, in addition to Baker and the five linemen: Chubb, Duke, Njoku, OBJ, Landry.

Is that 21 or 11 personnel? Hard to say, because you can line up Duke in the backfield or in the slot and the Browns really should do both. Run a hurry up offense, move players around, put them in motion, be creative. We have real offensive minds in charge now. Look at Duke's versatility as an asset and think about how it can be exploited. I'm not sure how a late round pick is going to give that same kind of value.

jc

After staring down the barrel of the first half schedule, it would have to be an enticing draft day trade to unload Duke. That's the goal, not sure it will come to fruition because I'm not trading him for peanuts.

I think he'll be gone by the end of the draft. At the very least I don't think he'll see the field with us this season, and will be surprised if he does. I really believe Dorsey wants to use him as capital to get a player or a pick.

I think so to. I expect Dorsey to work some magic. I wouldn't be surprised, if there are only bs offers, to see him say "screw you then" and keep him for insurance purposes.

The point was and is, that DJs' diminishing role had already begun under Hue Jackson in 2018.

I am the one who brought up Hue Jackson and I am telling you that you misinterpreted what I meant. I explained it again to Steub and he got it.

I was talking about when Hue Jackson was actually calling the plays and when he chose which players to insert into the lineup. Duke was used quite a bit when Hue was making those decisions and not so much when Haley--and later Freddie--took over.

My point was correct.

It doesn't matter.

With Chubb, Hunt, and Hilliard, Duke will see even fewer chances.

cant anyone see Duke has peaked as a player.
he has hit his ceiling.hes not going to get any
better than what he is.
some of these posters act like Duke cant be replaced by another RB in the draft.
in fact he can be.
Duke feels can get more touches elsewhere.
trade him and move foward.

Like others have said, it really depends on the offer. A late round pick alone shouldn't cut it though I'm sure there will be teams that approach the Browns with that kind of offer.

I'm not sure it's as clear cut as you present it.

I don't think Duke's role was reduced. I think our need for his role was reduced.

In 2017, when we lost every game, we were behind more and couldn't realistically run the ball, so Duke was in more. In strictly passing situations, Duke was still the choice last year. We just actually had the lead more often and running the ball was more beneficial for us.

In 2016 and 2018, Duke had almost identical snap counts. 459 (2018) vs 457 (2016).

In passing situations, Duke is/was still our go to option. When we wanted a consistent threat of the run, he wasn't. Teams don't stack the box to stop Duke. Teams will stack the box to stop Chubb, which can open things up for big plays downfield.

Love Duke's playmaker ability - hope we find a way to keep him or receive significant value in a trade.

Anyone remember Dino Hall? Guy had speed for us for awhile.

Does the snap count really tell us anything, or does touches and receptions tell us the real story? In 2017 Duke had 82 rushes and 74 receptions.

In 2018 under Haley and Freddie combined, Duke had 40 rushes and 47 receptions. It's a funny thing how stats work that way.

The snap count was just a stat I found interesting and didn't exactly line up with Vers' assertion. Feel free to "set up some new goal posts" that I wasn't even aiming at, though. Isn't the goal posts bit a phrase you like to use?

I'm sorry if I like to consider things like context and the actually observable data when people make blanket statements.

Some people actually find other perspectives informative, even if they don't entirely agree with them.

I don't think we called radically different plays this year than we did when he was on the field last year. We just had other options in the passing game this year who got open.

It's nice having a QB that spreads the ball around and other weapons to spread it to.

Did you bother to actually look at the rest of what I said?

It's funny how your scat back plays more when you're down by a lot of points and need to conserve clock. Go figure.

When your winning and trying to run clock, you don't use your scat back as much.

I'm sorry if you think everything has to be black and white absolutes. I'm partial to nuance and flavor.

I don't think any individual stat or group of stats tells the "real story." I think they all tell a part of the story. I try to look at all the parts and see how they might fit together.

j/c:

I think I would prefer to keep Duke until the trade deadline due to Hunt's suspension, but I have a feeling that he will be traded the night before the draft of during the draft.

Freddie utilized him a lot in that one game [I think it was his first as OC] but Duke's touches went down again after that.

Combine Freddie not using him much and considering that Duke has asked to be traded, I think that Dorsey will move him. Dorsey has talked about how he wants people to get along. Disgruntled players are not good for team chemistry, especially for a younger team still trying to develop that important trait.

I have championed trading Duke for a player rather than a draft pick, but I suppose using Duke as part of a package to move up in round 2 might be a worthwhile venture.

The one thing that could change my mind is if Duke comes out and says he wants to stay in Cleveland. Dorsey made the comments about utilizing Duke this year, but we haven't heard a retort from Duke. This tells me that he probably views Dorsey's comments the same way I took them.......Dorsey is not wanting to diminish Duke's trade value.

J/c

A few things to consider here and who knows how Dorsey/Freddie prioritize them .... and how they prioritize the following things determine what were willing to accept for Duke ... Duke has value to us right now ... question is ... how much value ....

First i want to address Freddie’s utilization of Duke over the last 8 last year ... i think u can throw that out the window ... Freddie did the smart thing and kept things real simple ... he had zero time to install his O ... he kept it real basic and simple because he had too ... i don’t think u can read to much into Duke’s usage last year under Freddie into how he will be utilized this year under freddie’s and todd’s O ...

Now to the variables that matter ...

- what do we think of Hilliard
- dukes desire to be traded ... this can be overcome and Duke’s very good at what he does and until we get Hunt and even after Hunt’s arrival Duke should have a roll ...
- what is his value to us .... will we take a 5th or 6th for him or a player of that value or is he worth more than that to us ...

I hope we don’t trade him ... i don’t think we’ll get what he’s worth to us ... 8 games is a long time in NFL terms so I guess it really boils down to what we think of Hilliard ... it doesn't make sense to leave yourself without a really good 3rd down back and an above average #2 if he needs to start a few games for 1/2 the season ... Duke has a friendly contract # and is very good and he has a roll ... so to me it depends on how much faith we have in Hilliard ...

It’ll be interesting to see how this plays out this week ...

Your points are all good except for one about throwing last year's eight games out the window. Freddie's offense wasn't a continuation of Haley's. It wasn't some dumb-downed version.

Instead, Freddie's offense was innovative and played to Baker's strengths. It also incorporated getting rid of the ball faster. We had a ton of plays where Baker got rid of the ball very quick. We didn't have a lot of plays where we asked Baker to hold the ball a long time for slow-developing routes. The times when Baker did hold the ball came when his first read wasn't open and he had to go through his progressions.

One would think that Duke's skill set would fit in nicely w/Freddie's offensive concepts. But, one would also have to wonder if they fit in w/what Baker likes to do? I saw both Landry and Duke open underneath last year, but Baker didn't throw it to them and elected to throw the ball down the field.

I agree w/the rest of your post and I would like to keep Duke because eight games is a long time. The thing that Dorsey, Freddie, and especially Duke are almost assuredly contemplating is what will Duke's role be when Hunt comes off his suspension. I can almost guarantee you that Duke will not enjoy that role at all. Hunt can do everything Duke can do and more. He can also do those things better.

So again, unless I hear that Duke has changed his mind and wants to remain a Cleveland Brown, I am "guessing" that he will be traded.

I think that Hilliard aside, we would still be short 1 RB (at least) before Hunt could be activated ... If we traded DJ.

If we draft a RB this week, then we might be able to say that we still have 3 RBs' besides Duke ... Not so much today.

Although finding a #3 RB who is looking for work, shouldn't be too hard to do.

I think that we are straining for nats here.

Those things tend to happen before the Draft.

DJ is better than a set of camp legs. Keep and play until Hunt is ready to go. If Hunt falls through, we need to look at this again.

Playing him well now possibly indicates trade validation stats for later while helping us now.

Could we use Landry in Duke's role if it came to it?

Freddie did give him at least the one carry.

It seems to have troubled you that I pointed out how much Duke was actually used verses how many snaps he was in the game for. Yes, those are two different things. For the RB position, production and actual usage mean something. Sometimes the usage of stats can be deceptive. I thought showing the snap count verses actual targets and carries was one such example. Sorry that seemed to blow your dress up.

Your straw man argument more annoyed me than troubled me. They are two different things, but they aren't mutually exclusive. My initial post wasn't in opposition of Vers. It was adding context. He has a point, but there are other considerations to take into account. Ending a post with "My point was correct" just struck me in a "if he feels the need to say that, I wonder what the numbers actually show" sort of way.

I'll leave you to the juvenile jabs that have nothing to do with football.

Yeah, the actual carries and targets a RB gets do change the context somewhat. That was the point.

To me when you use the phrase "when he chose which players to insert into the lineup" the stat that refers to is snap count.

When you use that line and then assert that your point was correct when the snaps are almost equal in a year Hue called the plays vs. last year, it might be worthy of a "Hmmmmmm...wait a second. Let's look a little closer at this."

I'm not debating whether the carries and targets changed. I straight out said so in my initial post and tried to explain why with regards to 2017 in particular.

I'm looking at another side of the context which you would seem to prefer to ignore.

I don't feel it's a meaningful context. That's all . I mean if a second or third WR on your team has a high snap count with very little in the way of receptions or yards, does that indicate that he's a good WR?

If his stats go down drastically in one season, does that change his value or contribution to the team? I don't have an issue if you think it actually holds some meaning. I just don't see it. When you play one of the skilled positions, production means everything. When your production drops significantly over the course of a single season, I don't see how many times you were trotted out on the field as having much real value in evaluating a players importance to your offensive production.

lol, it depends. Why is the production going down? Are teams giving more focus to stopping you? Are you playing with a lead versus playing from behind? What role is the player expected to fill?

Since you brought up WR: A good deep threat receiver might not have a lot of targets. If a safety has to roll his way, he can still be a good deep threat receiver. You won't necessarily see his impact just by looking at his production. Again you have to look at all the context.

These are the things I was trying to discuss.

I feel that everything is meaningful within the appropriate context. To attempt to figure out how much importance to place on each facet, you have to look at everything, though.

You can't just focus in on one thing and have blinders towards the rest and expect to get the whole picture.

I think it's a little more simplistic than that. We all know that a shorter pass is much safer than the deep pass. We all know that with very few exceptions deep passes are thrown far less often. So I don't believe trying to compare a deep WR to a RB is in the same category.

What we do know is that Duke either lined up as a RB or as a slot, short yardage WR and when he was in the line up he was used sparingly as the actual target. To consider that the opposing team was game planning or play calling in order to marginalize Duke when he was used so sparingly is another scenario that would be hard for one to buy into.

I understand your thought process and we are all entitled to our opinions. But I think your proposals are why the fan base has a disconnect over what they feel Duke is worth in a trade scenario and what the league, including our own FO values him at.

This is one reason I feel many will be outraged over the compensation we will actually receive for Duke when he is traded.

Not for nothing but it doesn't save the Browns anything to trade duke.. at least that's what the article on the subject on NFL.com said.

So there really is not reason unless they get a really good deal from someone. Something that blows them away

And that goes back to exactly what I referred to.

The fan base, at least a large portion of them, may see his value much differently than our FO or the rest of the league does.

While the fans might feel anything less than a third or fourth rounder is too little for Duke, the league and our FO may consider a fifth round pick for Duke is one helluva deal.

It's all about perspective.

If we where to Draft a RB, then it would be with the expectations that he could be more than a set of camp legs, but I agree that keeping DJ would be a better scenario, providing that he will not be a locker room liability.

Duke is the one who is asking to be traded ... The team has only openly stated that they would like to keep him.

j/c:

I get the feeling that some folks are forgetting that Duke has asked for a trade. That is a significant factor.

It's not a cool thing to say that to the media because it is now going to make it harder to get fair value in return. Duke could have went to Dorsey and asked for a trade privately. He chose to make his wishes known to the public.

That tells me that he is upset enough about his situation that he really doesn't care about how this affects the franchise. He wants out and most likely will become a distraction that this team isn't ready to handle.

Again, I will change my tune if Duke goes on record by saying he has dropped his request to be traded and that he wants to stay in Cleveland.

One more thing. I know a bit about the mentality of RBs. We don't care all that much for snap counts. We want the damn ball. Think of Zeke's "feed me" act. I think that it is foolish to think that Duke isn't upset that his touches have decreased.

I don't think that is a bad thing. RBs are tough and want to do everything they can to help the team. They also have to be confident enough to think they are good enough to help the team. They want touches.

I'm hoping Duke changes his mind and wants to remain in Cleveland, but I really, really doubt that will happen.

I haven't forgotten he asked for a trade, but I do think that Dorsey isn't swayed by that. I get the feeling (no guarantee I'm right of course) that Dorsey will do what's in the best interest of the Browns and nobody else..

I mean, if the deal looks good AND he can do right by Duke, sure, that makes sense. But when push comes to shove, I think him having requested a trade doesn't hold that much water. JMO

You brought up WRs, so I used a deep threat to illustrate context in the realm of snap count vs production and a player's overall value because it was the most simplistic and I figured it'd be easy to understand. Perhaps that was an overestimation.

How much do you think that I think Duke is worth?

My thought process is that his value hasn't change much over the past 3 seasons. He's still basically the same player, and we'd still use him basically the same ways. How often we might be in those situations may have changed. How we use him in those situations hasn't. Hopefully we won't have many down 14 situations going forward where he'd have seen extended run. If we do, he'd be nice to have.

I just don't think Hue and Freddie/Haley used him all that differently. Duke is what he is, and he does what he does.

I get that Duke and his agent are thinking about his next and possibly last contract coming up already and don't think he's getting as many touches as he could. However, he needs to determine how much he values winning versus how much he values touches.

He'd get a lot more touches on a team that was constantly getting demolished. That's part of the reason I brought up both 2016 and 2017 with Hue. When we were abysmal and went winless, Duke got a lot of touches. In 2016 when we were more consistently competitive (though still mostly losing), he saw the field about the same amount as last year.

In the game we lost handily to KC, Duke had 9 receptions.

So, while I don't see his value as a player changing, his value to us may have diminished as it appears we should be trailing a lot less often.

However, the Patriots seem to still find uses for similar backs. Though they also don't always get a ton of touches.

I don't know what I would trade him for. But I'd probably hold out for a 3rd on draft day or if someone gets injured early with the intention of keeping him until Hunt is available for games. At that point, I wouldn't be surprised if the price went down.