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Hopefully Harrison has been in the weight room full time. His lack of strength is probably his biggest problem.

I to have expressed concern about Harrison. I think Baker made him look good with the play action and his quick release. But a below everage LT limits what the team can do in terms of slower developing, down field plays if they need to get rid of it quick evey play. We’ve got all these stallions now, would be a shame if we couldn’t deliver early and often down field.

I’m very curious about this Forbes kid they drafted. I know the pundits said NFL guard but he seems like he has the size and feet of an LT. Such a visible mean streak. I do know is wingspan is a little short. Wondering if there’s any thought of him mixing it up at LT, which is where he played in college.

I'm interested to see how much strength Harrison has gained

Yeah, my understanding was the problem with Harrison was that his movement skills were above average, but lack of anchor strength made him susceptible to the bull rush, and once the league discovered this, they bull rushed him relentlessly. If a year of NFL strength and conditioning has rectified this, he may be the better LT candidate.

I know that some will attack me [not you] but that isn't really accurate. Harrison was playing when Baker was holding the ball way too long in Haley's offense. Baker started getting rid of the ball much quicker when Freddie took over. Robinson replaced Harrison around the same time.

Baker benefited from having the second highest rated OL in the entire league. No other rookie qb had the time Baker did. I'll accept the personal attacks that will come w/what I said, but I'm a bit tired of letting things slide just so people won't twist off. And again, I am not putting you in that category.

Maybe the OL benefited from having an elusive QB who started getting rid of the ball much quicker.

You're objective. Why are you a Brown's fan again? How many years have you been a Brown's fan?

Baker seems more confident with Robinson. Hopefully he can nail down the LT position for the foreseeable future.

I think for sure he did. But make no mistake, our interior line is one of the best in football.

Don't let the bullies get to ya.

Didn't BM have the lowest passer rating outside of the pocket?

OL was good and BM was also good,we had a running game and game plans started to make sense.

All a combination of good stuff.

I am fascinated with Forbes and how he ends up being used. Seems like a real find if some that is reported is true. Want to see it myself.

Maybe Freddie needs to unveil a gimmick package like a three-tackle offense. Can be designed, maybe for red zone.

Here's to Forbes finding his place.

No. He was actually one of the best.

Yep.

Thanks. I was looking for that... I only found the one where he had the second best passer rating outside the pocket since week 11...

No doubt we’ll have one of the best interior OL’s in football ... no doubt about it ...

Hold on a sec .... *shaking sand out of my hair and ears* ...

I decided to stick my head in the sand to see how it feels when u IGNORE FACTS to come to incredibly inaccurate, optimistic conclusions ... it was fun ... man were we good ... *L* ...

With my head in the sand we were no longer replacing one of the best RG’s in football with a 2nd year player with basically ZERO NFL EXPERIENCE taking his spot ... therefore i can say with all honesty we will have one of the best interior O-Lines in football as long as my head remains buried in the sand ...

Don’t let the bullies(realists) get to u ... listen to the head in the sand crowd instead as I’m sure there will be hardly any drop off with that move ... heck, we prolly won’t even notice ... ...

Pig Ben also held the ball too long in Haley's offense...but he had the OL and talent to make that work - and the referees if you see how that OL holds. Tyrod looked absolutely pathetic in Haley's offense. His performance in that Jets game pre-injury was just sad all around. That offense did not fit the personnel and especially the anointed QB.

Once Hue/Haley/Tyrod were all gone, the schemes got better, the execution started to actually work, the ball came out quicker, the receivers started catching the ball and the OL became one of the better performing units in the league. The two primary coaches and the QB were all that changed once Robinson became the starter. In hindsight for some and plain sight for others, Baker should have started from day one.

Harrison has talent...but he wasn't ready. If Robinson wasn't injured early in camp, Harrison would have never started. Hue was responsible for knee-jerking Harrison into the starting lineup...just Hue being Hue...like not allowing Baker to compete for the starting position. I've read many opinions that Harrison did not have the kind of access to coaching, training AND NUTRITION that he would have had at a Power 5 school...or will have as a pro. That makes complete sense. Not to mention, when you practice against Myles Garrett vs. a small school DE, your eyes will grow to the size of dinner plates.

The OL started to perform well when Robinson came in and Baker played under Kitchens' play-calling. Yes, Baker benefited from that improved/excellent OL play...but HE was the catalyst that changed that unit on the filed...combined with Kitchens being that catalyst on the sidelines.

I saw NOTHING out of any of the other rookie QBs that suggest that they could do what Baker did...and under the ridiculous circumstances that he performed under. A good/very good OL and coaching allows a QB do do his thing...but he STILL has to do it.

I don't get how the most recent year carries so much less weight than previous years, but okaaay.

I'm not saying that he is now some great lineman, but I am saying that his most recent season takes him back to neutral. He has proven that he is NOT the guy that was the worst OL in the league; he has the capacity to be on of the better ones... the only question going forward is whether or not he has committed himself to continuing the work that he put in this past year.

His issue isn't a skill or ability issue - he's proven that.

No doubt whoever we play there is going to have to prove it.

Assuming we get decent play, we should still be strong up front.

I see you're still holding on to that Baker Mayfeild sucks stuff. Outstanding level of stubborn. Good for you, you sink with that ship.

Small sample/recency bias

A player can't improve?

A player can definitely improve. I would just like to see more before I rely on the improvement instead of the much more voluminous evidence of poor play. If I had to bet right now I’d say that Robinson turns back into a pumpkin. I hope he doesn’t.

(Robinson was very bad for four years and average for one.)

How do you know if he's improved or just having a solitary good year and the issues that plagued him before won't resurface?

I don't know. Then again, how do you know that he won't continue to improve?

Jesus........this board gets dumber by the day.

I agree. I don't post much but I read daily. The most frequent posters just drain the IQ of the board.

One thing people don't usually consider is age, maturity. Robinson is 26 or so, he might be turning the corner as a person, which can help anyone in their job.

Good point. We as fans lose sight of the fact that players, when they come into the league, have often never had life responsibilities before. They've been high school, then college students where housing, food, laundry, bills, etc are all handled by someone else. Of course that doesn't apply for everyone. Some have good parental examples, others, not so much. Then there's the fact that they have more money than most everyone their age. Bad social habits are easy to fall into with that kind of money. And, of course, there's the fact that different people naturally mature at different paces.

j/c

Human potential is among the most fragile and mercurial commodities on earth. Some people surprise with their accomplishments others disappoint. No one knows for sure who will do either.

The recency bias is valid and not a point of disqualification because not only is it the most current data - that has actual consistency to it - but, it is also in the place, with the players and coaches, and on the team he is still with. Yes, the sample size is smallish in that it is half a season, but it has consistency which means that it cannot be dismissed as an anomaly.

IF he regresses in play, it is not a matter of ability. His issue is all in his head and I just do not see him taking that step back given that he will be surrounded by the same coaches and players that brought the good play out of him in the first place.

Yes, it can still happen, but I think the FAR more likely scenario that would put him on the bench is someone surpassing him without him regressing in effort.

Going to break this up a bit because there's a lot to respond to.

I didn't watch the episode you're talking about but I know all too well about the "oversimplified" analysis on shows like that.

That said, I don't think not buying the Browns hype because of Freddie being in the first year and not having had a winning season is all that unreasonable, and certainly isn't garbage.

If I had to put my money on a team to win the AFC North this season, just a straight up bet with no odds, I'd put it on the Browns. I think this is the first time I'd say that since the divisions realigned. I'm a Browns fan but not a Browns homer in the sense that I overvalue our team and undervalue everybody else.

You have to look at it from an outsider's perspective. They see the Steelers and Ravens having winning season every year. Always put out tough, physical, competent football teams. Both coaches have won a Super Bowl. The Browns haven't exactly been a model of organization stability.

Can that change? Yes. Should it change? Yes. Do I fault some talking head from being skeptical when talking about a franchise that has had our run of futility and now a first year head coach? No I can't fault them for that. Those are reasonable points.


The thing is that is looking in the past. It would be just as easy to pick an example of a team who loaded up on a bunch of talent and then flopped.

Vegas over/under has the Browns set at 9 wins. I think that's about right. Sounds like a great place for people to put their money on something they know will happen. We all *know* the Browns will have a winning season, right? At 9-7, your bet would push. More than 9 wins, you win. You can't possibly lose any money by betting on the Browns 'over' because we all know they will have a winning season.

Obviously there's more to it than that (and not just the possibility of going 8-7-1.) I'd just go back and say again that there's a lot volatility in this league. Injuries, QB goes down for the season, ball bounces the wrong way, receiver gets completely leveled a second before the ball gets there and the ref bet against your team temporarily goes blind. It's football, $*&# happens.

Coaching matters a ton though. We saw how big of a difference it made last year. It was so obvious, a tale of two halves of the season. Same players, different coaches, radically different results.

Freddie was a big part of this, which is why I'm pretty optimistic going forward. The difference on offense... the pass protection, receivers running better routes and actually catching the ball, Baker getting the ball out faster, and so on... was night and day.

This will be Freddie's first run though. He, not Gregg Williams, will be in charge. Can he manage all those new responsibilities while also helping fine-tune this offensive juggernaut?


Resumes are overrated. Sean McVay isn't Sean McVay because of having X number of years as a position coach or coordinator, or who he worked with or who he worked under. When you want to find somebody talented, you have to think less in terms of qualifications and more in terms of intelligence, work ethic, creativity, leadership, etc. Some of these are transferable to a limited degree.. others, not really.

Look at New England. Everybody wants to copy their success and many of their assistant coaches have been hired as head coach elsewhere because of it. They were a coordinator for a bunch of years under Belichick, they can probably be Bellichick now. No! It doesn't work like that! Belichick is the main driving force there and always has been. He also has some brilliant people surrounding him, to this day, from Tom Brady, to Nick Caserio, Ernie Adams, and others.

Anyway, about Freddie. As mentioned above: I'm optimistic about him, but it is a cautious optimism. He was a big part of a rather stunning mid-season turnaround on offense. He connects well with the players, even getting them involved in which plays to install. He has charm to him. He's obviously quite savvy, no matter what OCD thinks of him.

However, as alluded to above, head coach still has many more responsibilities than an offensive coordinator, and the reality is that Freddie is a first time head coach. It's still a question mark on how that will turn out.


Fair points. I agree that the Browns have the best roster in the division.. just trying to give some more insight into why I wrote what I did earlier in the thread.

I also think there's something to be said about the change in scenery. When someone finds futility in one job location a change in scenery can be a fresh start. It does seem as if once Robinson came to Cleveland things changed form him. Whether that be due to the coaching or a fresh start I couldn't say. But his play certainly changed since he's been here.

J/c:

Re: Greg Robinson

In 2014, after playing tackle in an offense where he basically never got in a 3 point stance, he got kicked inside to guard and played for a team that lost it's starting QB (Bradford) to injury early in the year. Shaun Hill filled in after not a lot of reps. According to PFF their top RBs were Zac Stacy and Benny Cunningham and top receivers were Chris Givens, Austin Pettis, and Tavon Austin..."our guy" Britt was there, too. Jeff Fisher was his HC. That's not a great recipe for anyone to have success.

In 2015, the Rams traded Bradford to the Eagles for Foles and picks. So, another new QB for the team. They picked up Gurley at RB, but had pretty much the same WR corps with the exception of adding Wes Welker in his final year in the NFL who only played in 8 games. Robinson got moved back to tackle, so also dealing with a position change. Foles lasted 10 games as the starter before giving way to Keenum. The offense was fairly antiquated and didn't really give Foles the easy RPOs he later used so successfully with the Eagles. Receivers who can't get open and QBs with underwhelming arms who hold the ball too long can make any lineman look bad.

In 2016, the team is moving to a new city and all the turmoil that entails. They draft a rookie QB number 1 overall (Goff) and he's not ready and not a good fit with the system "in place." They draft Cooper Kupp, but the WR room is still underwhelming.

In 2017, a new coach (McVay) comes in and installs a new offense. The team signs Whitworth to a 3 yr deal. They trade Robinson to the Lions in June after Decker hurts his shoulder for a 6th round pick. He's constantly being called a bust in the media everywhere. He hurts an ankle early in the season. He misses a couple games. He gets waived with an injury designation.

In 2018, we sign him in June. He deals with the preseason parade at LT not getting a whole lot of reps as they work through Corbett, Bitonio, and Harrison. They eventually land on Harrison. The team goes 2-5-1 with Jackson coaching and Robinson not starting. Next week Hue's gone and Robinson gets his first start with us. He hadn't been getting starter's reps. We put up a respectable 21 points on KC in a loss. Next week we put up 28 in a win at ATL. After the following bye we go 4-2 and allow the fewest sacks in the NFL.

Is it possible that a guy good enough to have gone #2 overall, with few complaints at the time, just finally ended up in the right spot? With a coach who is good at putting his players in position to succeed by doing what they're all good at? Adding a weapon like OBJ who can get open early and having a RB like Chubb who can keep pass rushers honest won't hurt his chances.

Yes, Robinson didn't look great early in his NFL career. Who would have if thrown into those situations? I'm eager to see what he can do with a QB he seems to have a rapport with, an OL coach known for coaching up some good linemen, and a coach who seems to get the most out of everyone.

That and you learn your craft.

It takes some people time to get right in the head and body.

He is at the age where the head starts to get right and the body is in it's prime. In college he was bigger and stronger....probably since he was 10 years old he could rely on that for 95% of his game.

It didn't work that way as a young kid out of college playing against men with seasoning. Late bloomer is my thinking. At his age, he can still fill out 8 years worth of contracts if he plays well. Maybe even a few more. O line players can still play well in to their upper 30's.

You can say this often, but I don't hear anyone else say it, is there support.

The Browns are receiving way more positive press than negative. Folks on other teams are getting sick of all the positive accolades being heaped on the Browns. Is that garbage, too.

I am very optimistic about the Browns this year, but I think it's wrong to act like there aren't questions regarding this team. We only beat one team w/a winning record last year. That was early in the year when we beat Baltimore 12-9 at home. I think it was in OT, but I'm not sure.

I think our overall record vs teams w/winning records was 1-6-1. We have an unproven HC, a DC who has only 1 year experience at that position, and an OC who was fired. Our run defense was putrid last year and we didn't do much to help it. Our second year qb chose to skip working w/a qb coach during the offseason.

Again, I am optimistic and I defend the Browns when people paint them in a negative light, but I think your disdain for any negative comments is misplaced.

I think it would be wise to see the Browns prove it on the field before we become haughty.

Yes, Robinson was very bad before he got to Cleveland. He was a high first round draft choice and failed w/two teams before coming here. I don't agree that he was just "average" last year, though. I'd say he was a bit better than that.