DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Trump's Economy is Bad News for Dems (Socialists)

daytnabacker is wise.

If I had thought he was before, you would just have convinced me otherwise.

One thing it seems some have neglected to consider here. The Chinese government isn't a democracy. The people of China do not hold the power to run someone out of office. At least not their president.

Here, we have the power of the vote. An extended trade war that has a negative impact on the people of China can be withstood by their president with no repercussions. In America we can simply vote them out of office.

In short, the Chinese government can withstand a trade war for a more extended time than we can here in the U.S.

No, he really isn't at all.

They can? So why are 100 delegates from China coming here? Why are they crying for Trump to meet them halfway?

Thanks 40 I appreciate that

Daman refuses to answer my last post directed towards him, hmmm, wonder why?

For all those that think buying power has nothing to do with business or I'm F.O.S, I challenge any of you to call any supplier of your choosing and get a price list based on volume purchasing. Bet none of these fake business people will do this!

There's a difference between wanting a trade war and the ability to withstand a trade war. And actually China is standing pretty firm.

‘No more concessions’. Why is China playing hardball in trade war talks with the United States?

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomac...ton-trade-talks

I'm not trying to argue with your buying power point. What I'm telling you is that China can withstand a long term trade war because their president has no fear of being voted out of office for hardships in their economy. Our politicians do.

This is another one of those arguments I laugh at. Years ago I argued that raising taxes would raise prices. Businesses don't pay taxes, consumers do. The same could be said for tarrifs, but you only pay higher prices on those products from the tarrifed country.

I'm not sure of the exact costs of steel for instance,but if you'll pardon the actual numbers and allow them to be just examples,, I'll try to prove my point.

China imports steel, it costs 200 a ton, the tariff is 25% making the cost 250.00 per ton.

GM, clearly a company with great buying power pays 250 a ton. Do you think they just eat that extra expense? No, they don't. They pass that on to those that buy a car. Thus, the end consumer pays the tariff via higher prices for the car.

So tell me again, how it is that the end consumer doesn't eventually pay the costs of tariffs?

Also, I didn't respond to you because I was busy Running my successful business.....

Raising taxes does raise prices. And you are correct that you only pay added costs on the products from countries the tariffs are levied against.

But I think one must also consider that with the consumption of Americans, there are only so many countries that have the capacity to fulfill our need for goods.

Nations other than China do not have the capacity to manufacture the goods it takes to supply America with appliances, electronics and many other goods it takes to supply America.

When it comes to consumption we are directly tied into dealing with China. As some proof of this, even with the tariffs in place we had a record high trade deficit in 2018.

That's good Pit, I'm not arguing with you either. China is posturing just like we are. Typical negotiating. You're correct Xi cannot be voted out however, tariffs are hurting their economy like it's hurting our farmers.

I have to give Chuck Schumer props for standing behind Trump on this issue. We've been getting raped by the Chinese for decades on trade. Trump is the 1st President to have the balls to stop it.

You guys would rather complain about the tariffs and do nothing about what the Chinese are doing to us...it doesn't make sense. Let the thief keep stealing from you

I'll concede that as I'm doing the same. I'm only on here when I'm doing the boring part of business...all that gov red tape crap



A question for you before I can answer yours, Whats the cost per ton on domestic steel in your example? How about other countries prices per ton? Be fair in your example please

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Never did I once say that standing our ground against China was a bad thing. I certainly agree that we have to set a more even playing ground in trade with China.

The debate has been about what that will cost and who will pay for it. There will certainly be a price to the consumer in any trade war for both nations involved in it.

That's why I think we actually agree about this issue more than we disagree. It's not the principal we actually disagree with. It's more about the details involved.

I agree with you Pit. I'm saying that the consumer is not the only one paying for this like many have said. I know that businesses will use any damn excuse to raise prices. Every article I read (as I've mentioned already) says prices might, may, predict blah blah blah. Not one article I've came across can quantify what increase is actually in direct correlation to the tariffs. I did read one that said it would cost the ave person $156 a year...whatever.

All I've been saying is there are more ways to cover the tariffs than pass them on to the consumer. Look at Ford for instance, they had a huge marketing campaign saying how they didn't accept gov bailout money. You think that helped them in sales? So if a company wants to look like a star in the eyes of the consumer, help out with this trade war and watch their profits skyrocket!

More than one way to skin a cat

I agree with Bernie Sanders on something, hey Disney, donate some of those profits off of Avengers to our farmers!!!

This war will benefit us in the long run.

E_Bike absorbs tariff costs

US E-Bike company to absorb tariff costs for customers
6 February, 2019 Hayley Everett
Rad Power Bikes, a US-based e-Bike company, has announced it it is fully absorbing all costs associated with the 25% tariff imposed on e-Bikes since August 2018.

The brand is returning its products to their original pre-tariff prices, a reduction of around $200 across each model, in a bid to make e-Bikes more accessible and affordable.

Although operating a consumer-direct model, the e-Bike company demonstrates that it is possible to streamline business processes, standardise components across models, enhance relationships with vendors, and diversify manufacturing in order to reduce the impacts of tariffs on customers.

Mike Radenbaugh, Co-Founder and CEO of Rad Power Bikes, said: “We want to bring the most value to customers and one powerful way to achieve this goal was to absorb the tariff costs completely. We believe e-Bikes can truly revolutionise transportation and the communities we live in, and we’re here to make sure that happens no matter the cost.”


Here's a snippet out of a Bloomberg article;
Who actually ends up footing the tab for the tariffs isn’t as obvious as it might appear at first glance. There’s no guarantee that the full levy will be passed along to the consumer via a higher price. The retailer, wholesaler, shipper, foreign manufacturer, and even the manufacturer’s suppliers may choose to, or be forced to, swallow some of the cost. The division depends on each player’s bargaining power, says Menzie Chinn, a University of Wisconsin at Madison economist. In the extreme case that the Chinese side absorbed the entire cost, it would be as if China paid the tariff. In reality, economists and company executives say, the U.S. side is mostly bearing the brunt.

Chances are no, the increases will not be removed, and any person with common sense knows that as well.

I think companies can disguise cost increases and persuade you to believe those increases are not due to the tariffs. But in the end, when materials go up, so do the cost of the products in which those materials are used.

It is however hard to quantify the actual cost to a family or individual.

Let's use appliances as an example. An individual homeowner only buys appliances as the ones they currently have become outdated or tear up to the point that are no longer worth repairing. So if the tariffs are short lived, it may not impact their purchases of appliances at all and if so may be relegated to a single appliance.

If however you're building a new home, you will need to purchase an entire new set of appliances. That's really going to hit your pocketbook. If you're a home builder, you will be burdened with additional costs of supplying several new homes appliances. That's a big ouch!

It will also vary a great deal on which appliances you buy. I mean you can buy a washing machine anywhere from $500 dollars to $2000. The additional cost of these appliances due to the tariffs may also influence which appliances a consumer purchases as well.

We certainly disagree that these tariffs will be paid for in any other way than passing that cost on to the consumer.

If we end up winning a trade war with China it will benefit us in the long run. I'm just not going to declare it a victory until I see how it plays out. As I said earlier, the president of China will not pay a political price for such a trade war. Those in power in China have zero consequences in a prolonged trade war. That's not so here in America.

A prolonged trade war could have quite a negative impact on the stock market and consumer confidence. While I think we both understand these are the price it will cost to win in the long run, we live in a society that often isn't willing to pay the bill with the future in mind.

you make some valid points. I edited my previous post with a company that is absorbing the cost of the tariffs...look at previous post. Now that's a forward thinking company



Great example...it's my area of expertise. Here's the reality; the cost to build the ave home is $105 a sq ft. A 2000 sq ft home will cost $210,000. Appliance packages for good quality is about 5k. Me, I'll eat that tariff because in the overall scheme of things its inconsequential. Greedy idiots will pass that measly $1250 on to you... btw if you bought a house and paid full asking price shame on you!

Is the cost of the tariff really $1250?

Doesn't matter. If the cost of US made steel is less then the problem is moot. Assuming the quality is the same, they'll take the lower price....

If that were the case,we'd not be having this conversation

There wouldn't be a market for Chinese steel...

Here is where you and I might be disconnecting.

Chinese goods are by and large, less expensive than the US counterpart.

So,if the tariffs increase the price to the consumer, they'll switch to american made goods.

That would make them more cost effective than Chinese goods.

If nobody buys Chinese goods, then you are right, nobody is paying for the tariffs..

But what they are paying for is the increased price that is charged by US producers.

In either case, the price to the consumer increases. Either by paying for tariffs or paying the higher cost that is yet less than those from China! Bottom line, the cost is higher.

Correct but i didn't ask the price for domestic steel to be equal. So you're saying no other country would take advantage of the tariffs imposed and try to earn our business?

Btw, I posted a company that IS absorbing the costs of the tariff. I'm sure there are more but kinda shoots the theory only consumers pay the increase....I REST MY CASE!

US E-Bike absorbs tariff costs

US E-Bike company to absorb tariff costs for customers
6 February, 2019 Hayley Everett
Rad Power Bikes, a US-based e-Bike company, has announced it it is fully absorbing all costs associated with the 25% tariff imposed on e-Bikes since August 2018.

The brand is returning its products to their original pre-tariff prices, a reduction of around $200 across each model, in a bid to make e-Bikes more accessible and affordable.

Although operating a consumer-direct model, the e-Bike company demonstrates that it is possible to streamline business processes, standardise components across models, enhance relationships with vendors, and diversify manufacturing in order to reduce the impacts of tariffs on customers.

Mike Radenbaugh, Co-Founder and CEO of Rad Power Bikes, said: “We want to bring the most value to customers and one powerful way to achieve this goal was to absorb the tariff costs completely. We believe e-Bikes can truly revolutionise transportation and the communities we live in, and we’re here to make sure that happens no matter the cost.”



E-Bikes are the fastest growing segment of the bicycle market, with US sales increasing eightfold since 2014 according to NPD. However, last year US President Donald Trump approved tariffs on around $200 billion of Chinese imports, including $1 billion in bike products. Some e-Bike brands are increasing prices for a second time since the tariff went into effect.

The 25% tariff was imposed on e-Bikes and other goods worth $16 billion in a second round of duties placed during trade negotiations between the US and China. At the time, Rad Power Bikes was able to absorb most of the impact, but was still forced to increase prices by $200. When Radenbaugh and fellow Co-Founder, Ty Collins, announced the price increase in a candid video, thousands of customers expressed devastation that the e-Bikes were no longer in their budget.

Snippet from Bloomberg

Who actually ends up footing the tab for the tariffs isn’t as obvious as it might appear at first glance. There’s no guarantee that the full levy will be passed along to the consumer via a higher price. The retailer, wholesaler, shipper, foreign manufacturer, and even the manufacturer’s suppliers may choose to, or be forced to, swallow some of the cost. The division depends on each player’s bargaining power, says Menzie Chinn, a University of Wisconsin at Madison economist. In the extreme case that the Chinese side absorbed the entire cost, it would be as if China paid the tariff. In reality, economists and company executives say, the U.S. side is mostly bearing the brunt.

You're right that a standard built home may be priced according to footage. But we both know that with upgrades and depending on the finishes that price can fluctuate greatly. But I do understand your point.

The bottom line to all of this is that you're a consumer of those appliances as well. The people who make those appliances produce them. So yes, whatever cost increases there are in those appliances, you as a consumer are paying that additional price.

From the fact you plan to eat those costs makes it obvious you have enough profit built into your margins that you can afford to eat that cost. Not everyone in business has that option. Just because those margins do not exist in many businesses doesn't make those who don't eat it, "greedy idiots".

We both know in most cases that businesses will not eat those costs and will keep their profit margins steady. In any corporation that goes public they are actually obligated to keep their profit margins as good, if not better than they are currently. They represent their investors and are obligated to do so.

And no, I am a pretty good negotiator and never pay full price for any product that negotiable.

Did you miss my post of a company that is absorbing the tariffs?

Kinda says there are more companies like mine that can eat the costs and will do so doesn't it? Kinda shoots your claim that ONLY the consumer is paying doesn't it?

To borrow a line fro Joe Pesci in My Cousin Vinny, you can say it, they know....just playing Pit

There are exceptions to the rule. That won't change the rule.

I didn't know of this rule that only consumers have to pay for the tariffs...can you show it to me please

C'mon Pit, your claim was SQUAAAAAAAAASHED!

My claim? It wasn't my claim. My claim is that the vast majority of tariffs are and will be paid by the consumer. Finding even a hand full of examples to the contrary won't change that.

You're trying to make an argument that flies in the very face of how business works.

LMAO....how business works...forward thinking out of the box people like me IS how business works!

Not even the Republicans on this board are trying to back up the feeble argument you're trying to make.

What the hell does party affiliation have to do with good business? Damn dude can't admit when you're wrong....try this; I stand corrected

But is the manufacturer of those products absorbing those tariffs?

What exactly is your business?

The vast majority of the tariffs will be passed on to the consumer.

Even in the example of you eating the increased cost of those appliances. You can't seem to grasp that you yourself are a consumer of those appliances.

They manufacture those appliances and you purchase those appliances from them. Sure, you didn't pass that cost on down the food chain, but you are their consumer and you are paying the cost for it.

Residential building and remodeling....flip several homes...yes my business could be affected with tariffs but I choose not to buy Chinese crap so I pay nothing towards these tariffs.

Here's another company that did exactly what I've been talking about;

Tough Choices


WYOMING, Mich. -- Bob Roth makes no bones about his feelings towards U.S. manufacturing.

The co-owner and chief executive of RoMan Manufacturing Inc., which makes transformers and glass-molding equipment for automakers and other industries, asks callers on his voicemail: "What have you done today to support U.S. manufacturing?"

His procurement team has been under long-standing orders to source all parts and materials as near as possible to his western Michigan factory, even with President Donald Trump's tariffs on steel and aluminum.

But with those tariffs dragging into a new year and steel comprising a quarter of RoMan's fixed costs, Roth says his company has now begun the lengthy process of switching from its U.S. suppliers to an Israeli company for a key component for its products.

It is a strategic decision that RoMan and other auto suppliers have put off since the tariffs kicked in last spring. With tariffs firmly part of the landscape, some are now starting to shift their own supply chain to keep costs in check, according to more than a dozen interviews with U.S. auto suppliers and industry consultants.

The choice is stark for most suppliers: absorb the extra cost, pass them on to customers or find ways to slash material costs.

The transformers Roth's 150 workers at RoMan produce require a magnetized steel core that is now more expensive as tariffs have allowed U.S. steel producers to raise prices. The Israeli supplier has access to cheaper steel and its cores qualify as finished products, so they are not subject to tariffs -- making them a cheaper alternative.

Agreed.

Which takes me back to my post about jacking up the minimum wage.

Those costs will be added to the product/service provided.

Another company

Alcatel-Lucent Enterprise to absorb Trump tariff costs until 2019
After that, however...

October 08, 2018 By Sebastian Moss

Alcatel-Lucent Enterprise has pledged not to raise prices on its enterprise networking products and services until 2019, absorbing the cost of the recently introduced US-China trade tariffs on its equipment.

The tariffs add 10 percent to the cost of a range of products, including hardware from ALE. In January 2019, should nothing change, the Trump administration plans to increase the rate on some products to 25 percent.

Facing economic realities
alcatel-lucent-office.jpg
– Alcatel Lucent
“Whether it is shifts in the market, the introduction of new technologies or broader economic factors like tariffs on US imports, ALE puts a premium on the needs of our partners and we base decisions on how best to navigate change together,” Stephan Robineau, EVP for the ALE network business division, said.

“Unfortunately, in a situation like this, the additional cost must be absorbed somewhere along the supply chain.

"Most of our US customers locked in 2018 budgets long ago and are already in planning cycles for next year. We recognize an unexpected price increase could aggravate a budgeting process that is often already complex for business leaders.”

The company added that if it raises prices in 2019, it will tell customers at least three months in advance, to allow them to prepare. Elsewhere, data center optical transceiver manufacturer Kaiam said it would stockpile equipment to insulate customers from the impact of the brewing trade war.

Linda Moore, CEO of tech trade body TechNet, said last month: "Data centers are complicated supply chain projects that rely on the absolute certainty of receiving key components in a timely and cost-effective way. If critical pieces were to be held up for delivery at a later date with higher, more unpredictable costs, companies would be incentivized to make investments and create jobs in other countries where such needless uncertainty surrounding data centers does not exist.

So the answer is the costs of the tariffs will increase cost to consumers and the answer is to keep low wages low so those people have even less buying power than they have now. Sounds logical.

Nah.

Tariff's are many things, and one of those things is an attempt to level the playing field. An attempt to keep, or create jobs HERE.

Not sure that is what Arch meant.
I'm pretty sure he means, if McDonalds increases the minimum wage of all their employees, you can count on McD to increase the price of their menu items to absorb at least some of that cost.

Thereby, any increase in pay, may not help them in the long run, when everything just costs more.

No dude I'm part of the supply chain.



Arch, automation will take over...you'll get your Big Nac off of a conveyor belt.

I thought that’s what the tax cuts were for. So we have to bribe corporations AND punish the consumer in order for business to thrive here.

Yea, sounds super sustainable.

Well - the first quote here that is attributed to me is something I never said.


The last quote. We're already close to that point. Maybe not the 'conveyor belt' point. But, McDonalds already has self order kiosks. Why? To, overall, reduce costs, increase profit, etc. No sick days, no 'didn't show up for work'