DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Sashi Brown: Discuss Here

So when you have more needs you want less picks?



Punt was not my word and not the word I would use. Punt implies that you are getting nothing which was not the case. We were getting future picks which are very valuable.

I'm seriously not trying to be mean because that's not me, but your ignorance on the topic is mindboggling.

If people knew how to use draft picks, every player in the NFL would be an all pro.

anybody remember when Sashi got canned sone acted like losing Sashi was the end of the world as far as the Browns fortunes go?
they acted like Sashi was the best GM the Browns ever had.

If only there were a way to look this up. . .

https://www.dawgtalkers.net/ubbthreads.php/topics/1367178/sashi-brown-fired#Post1367178

Here we go again. Sashi Brown was not the GM. He was the Executive VP of Player Operations. The GM position was vacant for 2 years.

In 2016, when the Browns fired Pettine and Farmer, Sashi understood that no GM worth his salt would want the job. The team had been through 4 regime changes in 5 years, with an impatient owner with a hair trigger finger, and a roster with very little talent. Any GM candidate who had another option, would take the other option, leaving the Browns with no chance of attracting a top GM candidate.

So instead of hiring a GM, Sashi took on the role of making the position of GM attractive. He made the roster decisions, but not with team building in mind. His first move was to let 4 good players leave in FA. None of us understood what he was doing at the time, and we all hated it. But looking back, after the whole scenario has played out, I can see that what he was doing was avoiding locking the team into potentially burdensome contracts with players best described as good but not great. He got comp picks in return.

Next he made a series of draft trade downs, accumulating future draft picks. By pushing the value into the future, he allowed for high value draft decisions to be made by the GM they would eventually hire. (Because hiring a good GM was the point.)

While he was pushing high value into the future, he had to still field a team, so he did the best he could using mostly later picks. What players he added, through the draft and FA, he concentrated on talent in the trenches.

By 2018, the GM position of the Cleveland Browns had transformed from the least attractive in the NFL, to arguably the most attractive in the NFL. An incoming GM would have 5 picks before the middle of the 3rd round, 2 firsts, 2 seconds, and a high 3rd. That the Browns had the worst record in the league giving them the first pick in every round, and the Texans (we owned both their 1st and 2nd round picks) did way worse then anyone expected, just made it even more attractive with 5 picks in the top 65, 4 in the top 35. In addition the incoming GM would have the most cap space in the league, and a roster with virtually no contract concerns. Essentially, a blank canvas and all the assets needed for an incoming GM to build HIS team.

That John Dorsey was available was sheer luck. Had he been available in 2016, he would not have taken the job. Had the Browns hired a lesser GM in 2016 and had botched yet another rebuild, Dorsey would not have taken the job in 2018. But the 2018 position was like a GM's dream. He took the job and has been exactly what this franchise has needed, a top shelf GM with insight and talent.

And we wouldn't have him without the job Sashi did in making the GM job attractive. I have lived 63 years, and I have learned that nothing becomes the best by accident. Turning the job of GM from worst to best in 2 years was no accident. It happened because Sashi had, and executed, a good plan.

I am NOT arguing that Sashi should have stayed in charge of the roster. It is my belief that was never his intention. I am not arguing that Sashi was good at drafting players. He had some hits, but over all not a good drafting record. But again, he was not a GM and he was not trying to build the team. He built the GM position to attract the best available candidate, and that, I believe, was his goal all along.

I spoke my piece about Sashi. I caught a lot of hell for telling the truth about what was going on. I got called a liar, an idiot, and other things. That convinced me that I should just keep my mouth shut on these boards.

It is naive to think Sashi Brown was not the GM. He was the GM in everything except title.

What you call naive, I call thinking outside the box.

Jimmy Haslam was/is in charge of the team.

Ageed. And Jimmy has often sought advice from others on how to improve his team. I suggest the plan was Sashi's and he sold Jimmy on the plan in the month(s) leading up to the firing of Pettine and Farmer.

It seems like this would have been reported at some point (especially in the Seth Wickersham article). Occam's Razor says that Sashi Brown was in charge.

I'm sure there is a lot that goes on behind closed doors and is unreported.

Not something like, "The person that was in charge wasn't actually in charge, he was just setting the table for the next person that was going to be in charge." That is a pretty big deal.

Hmm ... evidently I thought more highly of what Sashi had done at the moment of his firing than I do now. I think I try to look at the good people may have done, but in bigger picture mode, with a little distance and perspective, it is obvious that Sashi failed.

j/c

I'd contend the following are facts or derived from facts...

When Sashi was hired the intent was to hire a GM.

Sashi didn't take the job to be fired after a year and a half.

A GM wasn't hired while Sashi was here, so I'd say yes, he was the defacto GM.

Sashi wasn't hired to lose but losing was the expected outcome of "the plan."

Hue knew the plan going in.

Haslam talks to many people and more or less listens to the most recent person he's talked to... or the person he trusts most.

Sashi failed in respect to the fact that he was fired. But Sashi's plan was/is a success.

Despite Sashi being fired, the plan was retained.


If any of the above is disputed or felt to be incorrect I'd love to read the article or see whatever it is that you feel disputes what I consider to be the facts.... because I can pretty much point you in the direction of an article or something that would support the claims above.


Thus, I infer this....

Based on the things I've read, I'd guess Sashi had a plan and convinced Haslam to hire him. Sashi wanted to hire his own coach, but that's where Haslam drew the line. Every football person he talked to most likely told him what a great coach Hue is and how respected he is across the NFL. Haslam hired Hue. After a year and a half and one win, Haslam felt the pressure. The pressure to make a move. He talked to his inner circle people, football people and asked what he was doing wrong. They all praised Hue and said what's up with this Sashi guy, he's not a football guy. Despite his promises, Haslam fired Sashi.

With the assets obtained under Sashi, Dorsey was able to build the team we have today.


I love what Sashi provided and I love what Dorsey has done with it. I'm not disappointed Sashi isn't here, but I do think he got a "raw deal."

This is one of the more ridiculous, uninformed comments you've ever posted. And that is saying a lot.

You said it nicer than I did.

It's always so funny going back and looking at some of those posts, especially those from the people who are the self-proclaimed arbiters on here regarding who knows and doesn't know football.

I read through quickly... mostly my posts but I read some others and some of the other posts were kinda funny...

I'd have to say for the most part, my stance is the same now as it was then. Sashi wasn't the problem, it was Hue. Sashi had us on the right path, and here we are... The owner still scares me, although I'm still trying to give him the benefit of the doubt.

edit: And just to add, I believe my concern was that we were blowing things up again. We didn't blow things up, but stuck to the plan for once, and that's why we are in great shape today.





I did also come across this:




This was the quote of someone who claims I make stuff up and my reply was "this is false." SMH

I'm not an apologist like You and Memphis. I don't try to make things up. Sashi only managed to keep the status quo. Losing.

We had ample cap space and draft picks when he got here. All he managed to do was not screw that up. Dorsey explained they didn't know how to get any real talent when he first got here. I'll go with Dorsey instead of a couple of you guys on a message board. Sorry, but I have to take the word of someone who knows how to build a team in the NFL.

You guys have to make up some false narrative because you think analytics is everything while when Dorsey got here he brought in Elliot Wolf and Alonzo Highsmith to help him build a team. You know, an actual team that can win like we have now.

Sorry, your dreams of what you try to convince people happened is false and acting like you're right may land you a job in Hollywood, but not in reality.

You bring this up constantly and even still, to this day, have the quote in your forum signature:


First, I actually do think there is some truth to this. Sashi had some strong points, but he was not a great NFL talent evaluator.

I also wonder if there is a cryptic message in there, with "You've got to get a guy like that [Hue] players"

Well yeah, you've got to get a guy like that great players because he sure as hell can't win with mediocre ones, that much is obvious. Yeah, I know that 2017 team wasn't great, but I still think a good coach could have won 5 games. That was the Vegas over/under for the year.

Remember week 17 of that season?

The Steelers rested their starters for a 1pm Sunday game while a first-round bye was still on the table. Mike Tomlin thought his backups could beat Hue Jackson's 0-15 team and it turned out he was right.

How can you even judge Sashi's teams with a coach like that? Hue Jackson with Dorsey's team, 2-5-1. Same players, Freddie Kitchens, 5-3 while looking like a brand new team. This despite the 3 easiest opponents-- Jets, Raiders, Bucs-- all being in the Hue Jackson half of the season! (Some might say the Bengals, both of which were later in the season, but their implosion didn't start until Hue joined them, so...)

Sashi had his misses but he also brought in some talent that is still here, for example: Schobert, DeValve, Higgins, Garrett, Njoku, Ogunjobi, Tretter, and probably a few others that I'm forgetting.

Also, even if some players are not Browns anymore, does not mean they can't play. This is especially true when other GMs thought highly enough of Sashi's players that they themselves are willing to give up valuable players or picks in return.

Zeitler got us Vernon. Peppers and picks got us OBJ. Kizer got us Randall. Several others were traded for role players or late round picks.

(A side note: I know it's fashionable to rag on Dave Gettleman so some will brush off the Giants trade(s) as him not knowing what he is doing, but he was the pro personnel director for the two Giants Super Bowl wins over the Patriots, and the general manager for the NFC Champion Panthers, so I'm not convinced that all the talking heads are right about the guy. Time will tell.)

Sashi left us the #1 pick to draft Mayfield, whose QBASE score (an analytics formula invented by a Sashi Brown staffer) was the 4th best since 1997. Left us picks #4 and #35 from trades with the Texans, which Dorsey used to draft Ward and Chubb. He left tons of cap space, including some rolled over from previous years, that has let us be big players in trades (taking on big contracts) and to some extent, free agency.

It's not all bad with Sashi. There's some good and some bad. He did whiff on some early picks with Corey Coleman especially being a head-scratcher.

I think Dorsey had to back Hue when he got here because that was Jimmy's guy. It was a de facto requirement to get the job in the first place. However, once he was here and actually saw what was going on, he moved on from Hue after 8 games. It was going to be the "Greatest turnaround in sports history" according to Hue, too bad it couldn't start until after he was gone.

You can judge it by how many players Dorsey replaced. Hue sucked as a HC. That doesn't make the players better. Winning three or four games? All that would have done was insure we wouldn't have Mayfield. And even if we could have traded up for him, which nobody can say for sure if we could have, we would have paid an arm and a leg for him.

I mean if people said, "Well Sashi sucked but but at least we still had some draft picks and plenty of cap space when he left", that wouldn't be so bad.

But what they fail to tell you is we had a ton of cap space and draft picks when he got here. So it's not like he did anything really different. He just didn't screw it up worse.

Hue's job was to win games, not tank for Baker Mayfield or any other QB.

I'm glad the Browns didn't win five games in 2017, they are better off for winning less and getting their QB without giving up any other assets. However, Hue wasn't trying to lose. It was the inevitable result of his incompetence. Ever listen to one of his pressers? I swear, sometimes I had no idea what the guy was rambling on about. Imagine the frustration of actually being on the team.

By the way, the second worst team that year was the Giants at 3-13 and then no other team had less than 4 wins. So the Browns could have beaten the Steelers backups in week 17, avoided 0-16, and still gotten the #1 overall pick with a couple games to spare.

I'm not sure why you're upset. Are you mad we weren't lied to? I believe we were told this was a 4-5 year plan, we would lose and it could be difficult to endure. Or do you not remember this and just wish to continue your false narrative?

We had the same plan, if that's what you want to call it, since 2012.

When Sashi got here we had 10 draft picks and tons of cap space. When he left we had 11 draft picks and tone of cap space.

status quo.

It seems you're indicating that both Sashi and Hue sucked. If that's what you're saying, we agree.

ALL GM's miss on players. Dorsey is not excluded. Nor is Belichick. Corey Coleman was rated the #1 WR by several talent evaluators. I think with two drafts and hitting on at least 12 really good NFL players is definitely decent. Whether those players are still here or not is irrelevant because we hired a new GM. If you give Dorsey credit for drafting Baker, you have to give Sashi credit for drafting Garrett.

Yes. So many wish to ignore this....

And it's a GM's job to build a team. Both failed. The math here is pretty simple.

What rounds where the draft picks right when he arrived and what rounds where these draft picks when he left? Because to simply list the total number of draft picks in two draft years as if they are the same thing is an extremely weak & lazy argument. Plus it should be noted that three of those picks were compensatory (not that this is a bad thing), not through any trades to build additional draft capital. So, in 2016 before Sashi was hired, we had our normal one pick per round. Then comp picks were announced, then Sashi did his trades to accumulate more picks in earlier rounds.

And you know we accumulated a ton of cap space with the releases the new 2016 front office made, like cutting Kruger, Dansby, Whitner, etc. You understand this right?


https://www.nj.com/eagles/2016/02/nfl_free_agency_2016_ranking_all_32_teams_by_cap_s.html

And it was 9th in the league. Where was it the when he left?

More Info: Sashi cutting the three players noted above (Kruger, Whitner, Dansby) added $13M to the cap, roughly a third of the total number above.

We did not... If this is what you believe, no wonder you're all discombobulated.

One point in case... 2015 we had one of the oldest defenses in the league. Sashi came in 2016 and we swiftly became one of the youngest if not the youngest defense in the league.

Your buddy Dorsey also retracted the quote you share in your signature to something of the nature that we got too young too fast...

But don't let facts get in your way....

Sashi helped in that most of our core players were either over 30 (Dansby, Tramon Williams, Whitner, Barnidge, Greco, Mack, Randy Starks, Hartline) or being paid and not producing (Kruger, Desmond Bryant)

No, not really.

My opinion of Hue is that he was the worst head coach I have ever seen at any level, of any sport. I literally can't think of anybody else who was so clueless, so in over their head, so lacking in self-awareness while they go on their blame tours, jumping ship to a divisional rival while he tanks them too, and so on. The best things I can say about Hue are that he will go and get you the #1 overall pick and he is a never-ending source of entertainment.

My opinion of Sashi is much more nuanced. Read my earlier post. Device has made a few good ones here too. I understand the Hue Crew can't bring it upon themselves to defend Hue directly anymore so they have to chip away at Sashi (and posters like me who have ragged on Hue for ages now), but scroll through again-- there's some good info here.

Some more: Cutting Dwayne Bowe added $3.4 to the 2016 available cap...now we're at almost $17M of that $38M in cap space from Sashi's releases.

I can.

People who thought Hue was a "leader of men" and all the players loved him simply because they watched edited footage on a football reality TV show.

j/c

Neither Hue nor Sashi have a job in the NFL. Boy these NFL team must really be stupid to let all of that talent Sashi possesses be going to waste!

Of course a few posters on a message board know better.

Sashi kept passing the buck because he didn't know to to build anything and the entire NFL knows it. That's why he's out to pasture now. Doing "lawyer things". Something he may actually be good at.

I think this is a great point. I think all the names you listed with the exception of Mack either retired or played 1 or 2 seasons after they left Cleveland.

You either choose to ignore the point or it just goes right over your head, but in either case perhaps this topic ain't for you?