Last but not least, your plan, which could conceivably improve efficiency and reduce costs, would eliminate millions of jobs... what do you think those folks are going to do?
The same thing horse drawn buggie makers did when Ford got rolling out cars. The same thing blacksmiths did when iron mills opened and factories could do what they did in a fraction of the time. The same thing silent movie pianists did when talkies became the norm... Find new work in the changing world. We shouldn’t hold up archaic systems for fear of leaving old systems in the past. Coal miners can be trained to instal solar panels. Work is work.
That's the funny thing about some of this. People seem to suggest that we shouldn't change and improve yet this nations strength, power and innovative nature was built on that.
Industries have come and gone over the centuries when better and more innovative ways of doing things have come along. Now, suddenly, we should come to a standstill because, I don't know, people are afraid of change and a better way of doing things?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
NOTHING about education says we have to overspend, that's the greed of capitalism.
How so? 75% of higher education students go to public colleges and universities that are run by the state and subsidized by the state through funds from the taxpayers... how is this capitalisms fault?
The prices are inflated, period. I personally believe all information should be free and accessible. Obviously we can't do that 100%, but we could make the best possible education available like this and cut cost tremendously.
Originally Posted By: DCDAWGFAN
Quote:
This is not a call for socialism in these areas, but a call for common sense solutions.
How do you plan to achieve your goals without government involvement and mandates?
I don't know how you wouldn't. But that has little to do with what I proposed.
Originally Posted By: DCDAWGFAN
Last but not least, your plan, which could conceivably improve efficiency and reduce costs, would eliminate millions of jobs... what do you think those folks are going to do?
Retrain. Find new jobs. Retire.
But I would ask you, where are all the blacksmith jobs today? All the farm hand jobs? How about the autoworker jobs?... Progress usually means change. I know that change is scary to the right, but change can be good. Everything changes, that's the one true constant in our world.
How are they inflated? Students pay what they pay, tax payers make up the difference... if they are inflated then there should be money left over.
Quote:
But I would ask you, where are all the blacksmith jobs today? All the farm hand jobs? How about the autoworker jobs?... Progress usually means change. I know that change is scary to the right, but change can be good. Everything changes, that's the one true constant in our world.
Yes, everything changes... organically over time. You said it yourself, healthcare is already using technology for collaboration and remote diagnosis, etc..... getting an online degree is beginning to be credible and not viewed as some fly-by-night lesser degree.. so let it happen and it will and it will evolve into a better product/service... it's not until big brother steps in and tries to force things to change that we will have a problem.
I know liberals think the best way to solve any and all problems is by putting the federal government in charge of it... and that they have an utter disdain at the thought that somebody might make money by coming up with a better solution... but that is, after all, the way this country was built. And it is what created all of the wealth and the power that y'all now seek to redistribute to solve those problems...
I want to get behind kindness, humanity, ethics and healthcare for our fellow Americans. You can label that under anything you feel furthers your political ends.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
I want to get behind kindness, humanity, ethics and healthcare for our fellow Americans. You can label that under anything you feel furthers your political ends.
What about free higher education, guaranteed jobs at $15/hour, guaranteed housing, etc?
I want to get behind kindness, humanity, ethics and healthcare for our fellow Americans. You can label that under anything you feel furthers your political ends.
What about free higher education, guaranteed jobs at $15/hour, guaranteed housing, etc?
Let’s do it
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
What about free higher education, guaranteed jobs at $15/hour, guaranteed housing, etc?
Those are different issues. I actually like Mayor Pete's idea on healthcare. Make medicare for all an option. Put it on the healthcare marketplace. If you wish to keep your employers healthcare, keep it. If you have private insurance you prefer, keep it. The idea is that once people begin to discover the price and coverage, combined with low deductibles, people will gravitate to medicare for all. I'm not in favor of a mandate.
I think that minimum wage should keep the same standard of purchasing power it did when I grew up. I'm not sure exactly what that figure is. I've heard a wide range of what that amount would be. But what I don't believe is that as time passes the lowest wage earners in our society should be moving backwards.
As far as college goes, tax payer dollars are used for state universities. As such, I think loans for those universities should be set at the prime interest rate. I also believe students should be able to have the right to pick the amenities they will use in an ala carte fashion to only pay for the amenities they will use to help cut some of the costs. I do love the idea of two years of free community college of which those credits can be transferred to a major university upon graduation. At some point we have to realize and think of education as an investment in the financial future of our country rather than a hand out. But I'm not for it all being some free ride.
Guaranteed housing is something I'm not set in stone as far as an opinion goes. What I will say is that I believe anyone working a 40 hour work week should make enough money to eat and put a roof over their head. Anything less makes us no better than a third world country.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
What about free higher education, guaranteed jobs at $15/hour, guaranteed housing, etc?
Those are different issues. I actually like Mayor Pete's idea on healthcare. Make medicare for all an option. Put it on the healthcare marketplace. If you wish to keep your employers healthcare, keep it. If you have private insurance you prefer, keep it. The idea is that once people begin to discover the price and coverage, combined with low deductibles, people will gravitate to medicare for all. I'm not in favor of a mandate.
I think that minimum wage should keep the same standard of purchasing power it did when I grew up. I'm not sure exactly what that figure is. I've heard a wide range of what that amount would be. But what I don't believe is that as time passes the lowest wage earners in our society should be moving backwards.
As far as college goes, tax payer dollars are used for state universities. As such, I think loans for those universities should be set at the prime interest rate. I also believe students should be able to have the right to pick the amenities they will use in an ala carte fashion to only pay for the amenities they will use to help cut some of the costs. I do love the idea of two years of free community college of which those credits can be transferred to a major university upon graduation. At some point we have to realize and think of education as an investment in the financial future of our country rather than a hand out. But I'm not for it all being some free ride.
Guaranteed housing is something I'm not set in stone as far as an opinion goes. What I will say is that I believe anyone working a 40 hour work week should make enough money to eat and put a roof over their head. Anything less makes us no better than a third world country.
30% of every dollar spent on health care goes to insurance middlemen! Any plan that does not end that is a FAIL from the start. The management costs of medicare runs around 8-9%, that's over 20% savings immediately.
Coal miners can be trained to instal solar panels. Work is work.
Hey, I agree with this.... just try making this point in an immigration thread... suddenly 20 people will quickly remind you of all the jobs Americans won't, and shouldn't be made, to do...
Right now, a lot of illegals are installing solar panels, hanging drywall, cleaning hotel rooms, cooking food, etc... and if the dems have their way, there will be a whole lot more of them to compete with....
Coal miners can be trained to instal solar panels. Work is work.
Hey, I agree with this.... just try making this point in an immigration thread... suddenly 20 people will quickly remind you of all the jobs Americans won't, and shouldn't be made, to do...
Right now, a lot of illegals are installing solar panels, hanging drywall, cleaning hotel rooms, cooking food, etc... and if the dems have their way, there will be a whole lot more of them to compete with....
All of them being paid by companies breaking the law, all because they don’t want to pay minimum wages. Once again the party of law and order sides with the white boss who’s breaking the law and taking advantage of these poor immigrants who are put into their indentured servitude and are worked like slaves in restaurants, hotels, and the building industry.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.
In 1981 when I grajuated kolij and started my first post-kolij job, I had a beater car. less than $100 in the bank. and ~$40,000 in student loan debt.
No house, a couple used pieces of furniture, some clothes.
So my "net worth" was about -$40,000. I never lost a moment of sleep. I never worried about it for a second. I was working for the future not the present.
I shared an apartment, bought an O.K. used car, bought some cheap suits and went to work. I worked hard and played hard, Best years of my life.
I probably didn't hit $8,000 net worth for 4 years after college. (first by paying down those student loans)
My girlfriend (now ex-wife) and I bought and moved into our first house (a condo) about then with $5,000 down payment.
This was a very common story among us middle class kolij ejukated baby boomers.
Cool, now triple that college debt, multiply that down payment by at least 5, and multiply that used car payment by 3 or 4, on the same amount of income and tell me how you would have faired...….
30% of every dollar spent on health care goes to insurance middlemen! Any plan that does not end that is a FAIL from the start. The management costs of medicare runs around 8-9%, that's over 20% savings immediately.
I think you missed the entire point here. Medicare for all would be the option that cuts out the middle man. It would be put on the healthcare marketplace. You would have the option to choose a plan that cuts out the middle man.
The way this would work is that the plan should be far more comprehensive at such a reduced cost that people over time would overwhelmingly choose this plan and as it goes on other healthcare insurance could no longer compete.
Forcing people on a plan not of their choosing is wrong on so many different levels. Now you're beginning to see that when we get to the point of actually breaking down our beliefs on things, people in the middle, like myself, don't really fit into a pure liberal or conservative structure. Common sense approaches to every day problems isn't popular with either side. And I don't really mind that.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Coal miners can be trained to instal solar panels. Work is work.
Hey, I agree with this.... just try making this point in an immigration thread... suddenly 20 people will quickly remind you of all the jobs Americans won't, and shouldn't be made, to do...
Right now, a lot of illegals are installing solar panels, hanging drywall, cleaning hotel rooms, cooking food, etc... and if the dems have their way, there will be a whole lot more of them to compete with....
All of them being paid by companies breaking the law, all because they don’t want to pay minimum wages. Once again the party of law and order sides with the white boss who’s breaking the law and taking advantage of these poor immigrants who are put into their indentured servitude and are worked like slaves in restaurants, hotels, and the building industry.
Most of them are not worked like slaves, they are worked like everybody else in their respective industry.
And I can only speak to those in construction, but most of them are making more than minimum wage, in some cases, a lot more. But they do show up, and they work hard.
With that said, go after the bosses if you like, I have no problem with that...
And I witnessed many of those jobs lost to companies that would hire illegals and taken away from American workers. They were jobs that paid enough for people to raise their families.
But when you think about it, the new guidelines Trump wishes to use for new immigrants paints an even dimmer picture for the job market. He wants them to be fluent in English, be educated and have a proper skill set.
Those immigrants will be coming after a different job market. It will target even better, more well paying jobs currently held by Americans.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
In 1981 when I grajuated kolij and started my first post-kolij job, I had a beater car. less than $100 in the bank. and ~$40,000 in student loan debt.
No house, a couple used pieces of furniture, some clothes.
So my "net worth" was about -$40,000. I never lost a moment of sleep. I never worried about it for a second. I was working for the future not the present.
I shared an apartment, bought an O.K. used car, bought some cheap suits and went to work. I worked hard and played hard, Best years of my life.
I probably didn't hit $8,000 net worth for 4 years after college. (first by paying down those student loans)
My girlfriend (now ex-wife) and I bought and moved into our first house (a condo) about then with $5,000 down payment.
This was a very common story among us middle class kolij ejukated baby boomers.
Cool, now triple that college debt, multiply that down payment by at least 5, and multiply that used car payment by 3 or 4, on the same amount of income and tell me how you would have faired...….
Let's analyze everything wrong with your excuse laden post.
1. If you have $120K in student debt and don't have a degree in medicine or law or something with a very high starting salary, you are a dumbarse... I've said it before and I will keep saying it. You can go to any number of reasonable state colleges for $10-15K/year all in.... You can find a school where you can live at home, you can do a couple years of community college first... lots of options. Stop making excuses for people's poor decisions. If you went to Yale or Duke to become an elementary school teacher, and your parents couldn't afford it, you officially qualify as too dumb to work with children.
Also, in 2018, $2.6 BILLION worth of free financial aid went unclaimed because kids and their parents just flat out failed to fill out and submit the federal financial aid package.
2. $20K downpayment for a house is probably reasonable. However, most lending institutions have programs for first time home buyers which require little, or in some cases ZERO, down. Don't recommend the zero down option, but they are there.
3. He didn't say what his car payment was, but you can get a pretty decent used car and keep the payment around $200/month without a big down payment.
4. In 1981, the average starting salary for somebody with a bachelors degree was just north of $20K.. in 2015, it was just north of $50K... so get out of here with that "on the same amount of income" bullcrap. Based on an inflation calculator, $20K in 1981 would be worth $52K in 2015...
Yet if you look at how fast college tuition has risen over the last 20 years there's no excuse for it. If you look at the interest rates people pay simply to get an education, there's no excuse for it.
If you look at what a teacher makes even with the debt you describe, trying to pay your bills along with your loan payments it's tough. And we really need good teachers.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Yet if you look at how fast college tuition has risen over the last 20 years there's no excuse for it. If you look at the interest rates people pay simply to get an education, there's no excuse for it.
If you look at what a teacher makes even with the debt you describe, trying to pay your bills along with your loan payments it's tough. And we really need good teachers.
It is not my intention to say we don't have things that need to be fixed or improved upon.. but the daily doom and gloom and woe is me gets a little old.
I don't really disagree. A lot of kids entering college make poor decisions about where to attend, what degrees to pursue and the amount of debt they accumulate. Some due to being the first to enter college in their family. I mean their parents haven't walked down that path with which to know the process to help them. Some simply do not invest the time and effort to look forward and properly find the resources available to help them.
There's certainly no one size fits all in this situation.
Much like yourself, I can see enough blame to go around in certain situations. While we may not agree on what or how to fix things, I think we can agree that "free college for all" or "doing nothing" are certainly not realistic avenues to travel down to address it.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Yet if you look at how fast college tuition has risen over the last 20 years there's no excuse for it. If you look at the interest rates people pay simply to get an education, there's no excuse for it.
If you look at what a teacher makes even with the debt you describe, trying to pay your bills along with your loan payments it's tough. And we really need good teachers.
It is not my intention to say we don't have things that need to be fixed or improved upon.. but the daily doom and gloom and woe is me gets a little old.
I know. We listened to 8 yrs of it recently. Just imagine how old it will get if Trump gets re-elected. I know I post a lot of articles and some on here hate me for staying on Trump so hard, but even I get sick of it and I'm a political junky.
Yet if you look at how fast college tuition has risen over the last 20 years there's no excuse for it. If you look at the interest rates people pay simply to get an education, there's no excuse for it.
If you look at what a teacher makes even with the debt you describe, trying to pay your bills along with your loan payments it's tough. And we really need good teachers.
It is not my intention to say we don't have things that need to be fixed or improved upon.. but the daily doom and gloom and woe is me gets a little old.
I know. We listened to 8 yrs of it recently. Just imagine how old it will get if Trump gets re-elected. I know I post a lot of articles and some on here hate me for staying on Trump so hard, but even I get sick of it and I'm a political junky.
My point being, if you took young people turning 22, during the revolutionary war, the civil war, the great depression, and world war II and could put them all in some celestial conference room... I honestly think some turning 22 in 2019 would swear no generation ever had it as bad as they do.
Coal miners can be trained to instal solar panels. Work is work.
Hey, I agree with this.... just try making this point in an immigration thread... suddenly 20 people will quickly remind you of all the jobs Americans won't, and shouldn't be made, to do...
Right now, a lot of illegals are installing solar panels, hanging drywall, cleaning hotel rooms, cooking food, etc... and if the dems have their way, there will be a whole lot more of them to compete with....
All of them being paid by companies breaking the law, all because they don’t want to pay minimum wages. Once again the party of law and order sides with the white boss who’s breaking the law and taking advantage of these poor immigrants who are put into their indentured servitude and are worked like slaves in restaurants, hotels, and the building industry.
Most of them are not worked like slaves, they are worked like everybody else in their respective industry.
And I can only speak to those in construction, but most of them are making more than minimum wage, in some cases, a lot more. But they do show up, and they work hard.
With that said, go after the bosses if you like, I have no problem with that...
I can attest to this in the construction industry. $30+/hr is not even a little bit uncommon.
Right now, a lot of illegals are installing solar panels, hanging drywall, cleaning hotel rooms, cooking food, etc... and if the dems have their way, there will be a whole lot more of them to compete with....
I thought you were better than this ... this comment doesn't bear out based on the facts. I don't think the comment about Liberals believing the government is the answer to everything has any basis in reality either.
Right now, a lot of illegals are installing solar panels, hanging drywall, cleaning hotel rooms, cooking food, etc... and if the dems have their way, there will be a whole lot more of them to compete with....
"Liberals" are not for "open borders" - and under Obama the illegal entries into the USA were declining. Under the Republican presidencies prior to Obama they were ascending.
The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
If you want to get behind socialism, then just say so.
Originally Posted By: Harry S Truman
Socialism is a scare word they have hurled at every advance the people have made in the last 20 years.
Socialism is what they called public power.
Socialism is what they called social security.
Socialism is what they called farm price supports.
Socialism is what they called bank deposit insurance.
Socialism is what they called the growth of free and independent labor organizations.
Socialism is their name for almost anything that helps all the people.
When the Republican candidate inscribes the slogan “Down With Socialism” on the banner of his “great crusade,” that is really not what he means at all.
What he really means is, “Down with Progress — down with Franklin Roosevelt’s New Deal,” and “down with Harry Truman’s fair Deal.” That is what he means.
Don't rely on scare words to win arguments. Rely on your ideas. And if you can only produce scare words to make your point, then you have none.
My net worth is dropping, rapidly. Daughter's MRI, probably surgery, well (water line) is leaking - that'll be $500 to $1500 to fix. Water heater is leaking and that will be another $1500 give or take. Property tax due soon - $1250 per half, quarterly income tax (yeah, I'm not saying what that is). Pond over flow pipe is broke. And many other things.....like, I don't know..........college costs for my daughter.
When my well pump died it was about 2k to fix so I feel you. I also need to start planning for my move to SF which is going to be a huge adjustment compared to living in an Akron suburb...
My net worth lately ebbs and flows with the market reactions to Trump tweets. I should have sold AAPL at $210 and completely divested of China exposed companies...
If you want to get behind socialism, then just say so.
Originally Posted By: Harry S Truman
Socialism is a scare word they have hurled at every advance the people have made in the last 20 years.
Socialism is what they called public power.
Socialism is what they called social security.
Socialism is what they called farm price supports.
Socialism is what they called bank deposit insurance.
Socialism is what they called the growth of free and independent labor organizations.
Socialism is their name for almost anything that helps all the people.
When the Republican candidate inscribes the slogan “Down With Socialism” on the banner of his “great crusade,” that is really not what he means at all.
What he really means is, “Down with Progress — down with Franklin Roosevelt’s New Deal,” and “down with Harry Truman’s fair Deal.” That is what he means.
Don't rely on scare words to win arguments. Rely on your ideas. And if you can only produce scare words to make your point, then you have none.
And yes.. most of those things are aspects of socialism.. there is pure socialism, then there is the sliding scale of socialist ideas.. most of what he lists is a socialist idea..
Quote:
Socialism is their name for almost anything that helps all the people.
Yes.. if by "helps all the people" he means taking from the haves to give to the have nots, or regulating businesses and wages to ensure that everybody gets their share, those are socialist ideas...
I'm not even saying that all of them are bad, but let's just be honest about what they are. On the scale, with pure unregulated capitalism on one end and pure totally regulated socialism on the other, almost all of us are somewhere in the middle, not at either end. So now we are just arguing degree and direction of movement on the scale.
I don't think any of the current dems want PURE socialism.... but they are much more in favor of moving the needle in that direction than I am.
If you want to get behind socialism, then just say so.
Originally Posted By: Harry S Truman
Socialism is a scare word they have hurled at every advance the people have made in the last 20 years.
Socialism is what they called public power.
Socialism is what they called social security.
Socialism is what they called farm price supports.
Socialism is what they called bank deposit insurance.
Socialism is what they called the growth of free and independent labor organizations.
Socialism is their name for almost anything that helps all the people.
When the Republican candidate inscribes the slogan “Down With Socialism” on the banner of his “great crusade,” that is really not what he means at all.
What he really means is, “Down with Progress — down with Franklin Roosevelt’s New Deal,” and “down with Harry Truman’s fair Deal.” That is what he means.
Don't rely on scare words to win arguments. Rely on your ideas. And if you can only produce scare words to make your point, then you have none.
And yes.. most of those things are aspects of socialism.. there is pure socialism, then there is the sliding scale of socialist ideas.. most of what he lists is a socialist idea..
Quote:
Socialism is their name for almost anything that helps all the people.
Yes.. if by "helps all the people" he means taking from the haves to give to the have nots, or regulating businesses and wages to ensure that everybody gets their share, those are socialist ideas...
I'm not even saying that all of them are bad, but let's just be honest about what they are. On the scale, with pure unregulated capitalism on one end and pure totally regulated socialism on the other, almost all of us are somewhere in the middle, not at either end. So now we are just arguing degree and direction of movement on the scale.
I don't think any of the current dems want PURE socialism.... but they are much more in favor of moving the needle in that direction than I am.
It's a case of "It's not the thought that counts".
Socialist ideas are great.
But it's the delivery of those ideas that sucks. The necessary bureaucratic agency and the power and money that goes along with that bureaucracy.
If we didn't need the bureaucracy, we'd live in paradise.
Therefore, the middle ground you mentioned above is the best we can do.
Ok, which of our current problems does the left think should be fixed by anybody other than the federal government?
I believe most of them "think" that compassion and fair play would fix lot of things. But alas following that train of thought has proven to have failed.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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