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I think desire and effort are always important, but they are more important at lesser levels than the NFL.

j/c:

Just saw that they had Baker ranked as the 6th best Fantasy football for this upcoming season on ESPN. Tom Brady was ranked 16th.

In a separate story:

Also, in the latest power rankings, they have the Browns 15th, the Steelers 16th, the Rats 17th, and the Bengals 29th.

The Chiefs were first.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/26686...ff-chances-1-32

I agree Mac. I know you assume a base level of talent. You or I might have the desire, but that won't overcome our lack of talent.

You always have your super gifted guys who are going to do well no matter what, but for the most part, the talent level between the guys who make it and the guys who don't is fairly narrow.

Desire is usually the thing that separates them.


I will add that sometimes it is just chance and fit.

I get your point.., But I think it's too soon to determine if desire is lacking. We've not seen them do anything..

I mean, if you just look at last season, Desire wasn't lacking at all., Not even a little that I could tell.

That team had desire, spunk, talent and a drive to win.

IT's kinda like it was put there by a few players and the coaches. Kitchens sure made it clear.. So did Mayfield,, but the really crazy one was Landry...

Those guys showed lots and lots of desire.

Anything is possible, but I don't think we'll lack desire..

I agree with that and what Vers said as well. That is why I prefaced it with a baseline of talent level.

Anybody who gets invited to even tryout for a NFL team has show some talent, and within the narrow margins between the best player in the league and the kid who gets a tryout isn't that great of a margin.

The kid who gets a NFL tryout, or makes camp is already in to top 1% of all the kids who played the game at some level.

Talent does fisher out the one's who lack it compared to the one who clearly have it. I think desire plays a big role in the middle group.

j/c

The Browns were the early darlings due to the sack-sack-story turnaround and a dynamic guy like Baker. Then this happened:

The Browns got a top 5 WR...the Browns got a top 10 RB...the Browns landed a "1st Rd CB" in Rd 2...the Browns got a top 15 DE...the Browns got a Star Vet at 3Tech. The Browns FQB will be a year older - which is good thing. They essentially lost nothing that non-browns fans would even know about in Zeitler (stud) and Peppers (dud). People ask me my opinion of losing Peppers yet have no clue who Zeitler even is.

The Steelers lost a top 5 WR...the Steelers lost a top 10 RB...the Steelers traded UP in the draft to reach on a slightly-better, Peppers-type prospect (IMO). The Steelers FQB will be a year older - which is not a good thing.

The Ravens drafted a tiny WR...cut their RB and signed an aging vet at RB...The Ravens lost "name" players on defense. The Ravens FQB will be a year older - which is a good thing. However, their FQB's ceiling is lower than Baker's floor as a passer.

The Bengals have an injury to their best skilled player...The Bengals are stuck with a QB who can't win big games on a loaded team...The Bengals first rd pick is a college LT who projects as a G in the NFL. The Bengals have Geno Atkins and a bunch of JAGs on defense. The Bengals also have an unproven coach who has to change the culture of his team while dealing with a less-than-good roster and the cheapest owner in the league.

It's easy to see why the Browns are the division darling right now and talked up about making the playoffs (by way of winning the division). Is it all hype at the moment? Of course it is. All that really matters is that the team and coaches don't buy into the hype...which all indications are that they are NOT buying into the hype. There is a lot to like...but they still have to do it...and they appear to realize that.

Actually desire is the one thing I don't question in any way.

OBJ felt like he has been dying on the vine playing with an aging Eli who has declining skills. I'm sure he's excited to be playing with a talented young QB that gives him the potential to blow up his production. He is also reunited with Landry.

And if anything can motivate a player it's being traded away or not feeling as though he is being given fair market value by the team he is playing for. Just look at the improvement of Robinson. I'm pretty sure that the players who have come in feel they wish to prove that their former teams made a mistake by letting them go. That will put a chip on a guys shoulder.

There's also something to be said about the culture and leaders on your team. Those players and your coaches are what inspires motivation. I don't see players like Baker, Landry and Myles combined with Freddie not providing the motivation this team needs.

They have shown these players the history of the Browns. These players know just how much it would mean to the city and the fan base to bring a winner to the table. They know they would be local legends if they can accomplish this. They know they have something to prove.

If all of that doesn't motivate your players, they can't be motivated.

I say talented enough to reach ALL OUR GOALS, not just some of them ... let’s break it down and then maybe we can break down say the pats and chefs and chargers and jags and colts to see where we stand ... lets start in the secondary and move on from there ...

Safeties ... we have a good one at FS in Randall ... he should only get better this being his 2nd year back at safety ... the SS spot is up for grabs ... for now u have to rate this as a negative as thats how i handle unknowns ....

Randall is a stud but the other spot drags this group way down IMO .. i’ll go with average .. if anyone does it this i sone of the groups i’d Love to see how we compare to the other good teams with highly powered O’s ...

CB’s this is a very very interesting group ... the main part of their jobs is covering ... we have Mr. Ward at one spot .. he’s the definition of a shutdown corner ... on the other side .. OH MY .. worse case is we have Mitchell back ... him and Ward made a pretty good tandem under GW ... question is .. .how good is Greedy ... appearantly he’s really talented and works his arse off going in early every day to watch film and talk football with his position coach ...

At worst this group is going to be pretty darn good ... it has a shot to be the best 2 and 3 deep rooms in the league ...

The things u can do with thes three if Greedy can play on Sundays ... WHAT A GIFT HE WAS IN THE MIDDLE OF RND 2 ...

LBer’s Wilks really likes the 4 - 5 - 2 .. i wonder if thats how he really feels or if its not talent dictated here ... thoughts? ...

I have no idea what to expect out of this group to be honest ... especially if Avery isn’t being used as a blitzer from the LBer spot ... Shobert/Kirksey can be really good or not ... shobert missed way way to many tackles last year .. it was emberassing ...

This year we get to see them play with way more talent in front of them and behind them than they ever have ... that alone oughta make them appear to be better .. hopefully they both play as well as they can especially considering the talent around them ...

This group is not going to fare well vs the other good teams .. *L* ...

DL .... MG OBI Sheldon Vernon ... WOW ... WOW ... WOW ... will be interested to see if anyone can come up with a better 4 man front ... it may be out there .. Jax maybe ... i’m sure one of u will let me know .. there’s always a long line of folks willing to pint out when i’m wrong .. *LOL* ..

Thats really really good ... how good this unit will be depends on the 2 or 3 behind them ... there going to have to play snaps ... we need to keep these guys fresh ... 19 games is a long season ... ... and i hate to say it but injuries are gonna happen ...

If the back ups are any good at all ... this could be another room thats right up there with the best in the league ....

We have some talent on D ... enough to be pretty good especially if Greedy turns out to be a shutdown dude .. that would just open up so many different things for Wilks to do on D ...

Our pass rush will hopefully help mask the problem at SS on passing downs ... it should ... hopefully the O puts lots of points on the board to help against teams running the ball on us .. *L* ..

We will improved against the run because of the talent upgrades with Richardson and Vernon and the fact we have more talent in general on D ... but this could still be a problem ... it is by far the biggest concern i have with this team ... i still think we have as much or more talent than anyone in the league but this could be our Achilles heel ... were good enough to overcome it IMO but it could be our downfall ....

OL how much is losing Zietler gonna hurt .. last year we had one of the best OL’s in the league cause of the interior 3 ... Bake made many plays stepping up into the pocket they created and then slithered out left or right from there to make plays cause our tackles weren’t and prolly still aren’t good ...

This groups play will depend on how the RG plays and how much Bake and the skill position players can help them ...

This group is a question mark at this point .. as good as 2/5ths of it is .. were pretty sure were going to get below average play at RT and we know were going to get bad play from our LT ...

Lets hope Bake and the skill position players can make them look better than they are or the new RG plays somewhat close to Zietler ...

TE’s interesting group ... all the atheletic ability in the world from Njoku .. will the consistency finally be there?? Did all Harris need was a chance ... will DeValve finally fulfill tabbers dreams .... *L* .. i hope so bro ..

This group won’t do so well against KC but is much better than the group in NE/Jax and the chargers ... Indi’s is better now but ours could blow by them ...

WR’s best 2, 3 and 4 man groups in the league ... NOT EVEN CLOSE ...

RB Chubb and Duke are a dang good tandem ... those two IMO are as good as any except the chargers .. Gordon/Ekelar is better IMO ... then u have the great backs like Barkley and Zeke ... do they need a #2 to be better than our room? ..

I’d say Chubb/Duke is a top 5 room in the league .. after week 8 ... were #1 and its not even close ... not even close ...

And Chubb has been catching a ton of balls out of the backfield according to the RB’s coach .. he’s catching everything ... thats been an emphasis ... SKIES THE LIMIT WITH THIS CAT ...

QB last but not least .. the most important one ... based off last season i see no reason why Bake can’t be one of the best in the league for the following reasons:

- 13 starts under his belt going into year 2
- started from day 1 ... all the reps ... HUGE ...
- talent around him ... its crazy ... two of the top 10 WR’s in the league ... 2 of the top 10 RB’s in the league after week 8 .... crazy crazy NEVER SEEND BEFORE type talent around him ..
- a year working with Freddie ...

He’s accurate/quick/decisive and has weapons galore ....

There’s my take on our talent level ... hopefully some will break down the other teams i mentioned and compare them to us after ripping my take of course ... *L* ...

LETS GOOOOOOOOoooooooooo

Talent
https://www.dawgtalkers.net/ubbthreads.php/topics/1620810/talent#Post1620810

Have you ever seen the Browns Roster so stacked?
https://www.dawgtalkers.net/ubbthreads.ph...ked#Post1604884

One hasn’t been responded to since May 3rd ... thats over a month ago ...

The other one hasn’t been replied to since march ...

Not much talk in either of them .. this should sink fast like they did ... ...

Pretty sure neither of them are on the front page anymore ... u afraid i pushed a Sashi thread down ...

Sorry i forgot about them, i’ll try to not let it happen again ... *L* ...

I think that this team has the talent to win it all.

Now they just have to turn into a team, where they have each others' backs on every play.

Baker gets the ball out of his hands really quickly, and that should improve, from a consistency basis, this year.

I think that Corbett will be fine at RG, even if he might struggle at the start. People freaked out about Chubb missing a block early last year, and wanted him cut. I think that Corbett will succeed, as well.

I look up and down the roster, at the various personnel groupings, and I am just amazes at how much talent has been accumulated. We don't just have a few great players, we have some truly great personnel groupings. I remember 2 or 3 years years ago when WR was a black hole of desperation. Now it's the best grouping in the NFL. (IMHO) I remember when some of us (OK, me) wondered why the heck we were getting rid of Crowell. Well, Nick Chubb, Duke Johnson, Dontrell Hilliard, and then adding in Kareem Hunt. *Whoooof* That's a seriously talented, and deep, room.

Out front line talent is outstanding, and we have seriously good depth at most positions. Do we have a great backup QB? Probably not. Are we going to find a backup QB anywhere near as good as Baker? Probably not.

The OL was incredible last year. Obviously losing Zeittler is, at least now, a big loss. However, trading a Pro Bowl level Guard for a Pro Bowl level pass rusher is really a no brainer. I suspect that Dorsey had an idea to move on from the high priced Zeittler this year, and that's why we drafted Corbett. Dorsey has earned my trust on things like this.

On the DL, we added 2 very good talents to form an excellent pass rushing DL. We have a number of guys who should be good backups. One name most people miss is Chad Thomas, from last year's draft. He has reportedly looked good so far this year, and was held back last year by Gregg Williams, who didn't like him for some reason. We'll have to see how he does, but if he comes on strong, along with Avery, Our DL will not only be good, but deep as well.

People worry about LB, but I think Wilks playing a 4-2-5 base will be a real benefit. We can take some of the pass coverage responsibility from Schobert, and allow him to roam more.

One thing that people are going to have to get used to is good players moving out and rookies, or other young players taking their spots. We have officially reached the point where we are going to have to pass up a very good player on our team, in order to re-sign a better player. We have several players who are going to require franchise level deals in the next 3-4 years. That also has to be planned for. The Zeittler deal is one that might take a very different form in the future. Maybe we have to trade Bitonio, for example, for a young player at a different position, in order to afford our franchise players. (Garrett, Ward, Baker, OBJ) The day is coming. I can hear people saying, "They could have got more!", or "They traded away $ dollars, why didn't they get a similar priced player back?". It's because we are going to have to start working youth in behind our veterans, and then drafting youth to augment them.

Anyway, I am amazed at what Dorsey did with this roster in such a short time. I think that we have, overall, a top 1-4 roster in the NFL right now.

I think Greedy is as good in coverage as Ward. Lockdown on the lake.

That was last year.

All of that is true.
We are loaded.
We haven't done crap.
See #2.

Whose do u think are as good or better ... if u could elaborate, that’d be great ...

Ty sir ...

There right ... we are loaded and THIS team hasn’t done crap ... well duh, its never played together before ....



The stilers didn’t rule last year and this years team has accomplished as much as ours ... DIDDLY ...

Why folks think that this year will in any way resemble last year in our division or in the AFC there just not paying attention ... NONE of the teams in our division or in the AFC upper echelon look near the same as they did last year ... and we IMPROVED the most by far ...

Last year has ZERO to do with this year ...



Even me ... *L* ... cause i think we have as good a shot at winning the SB as anyone ... we have more talent than anyone ....

Whose roster(s) do u think are in the same category or better than ours? ...



Ya buddy ... we sure do ...



U and I both dawg ...

YES!

Tradition doesn't win games. I don't care what anyone says. If that were true we never would have started losing.

Without looking at specifics, and using the "could be" .... the Rams and the Chargers come to mind right away as possibilities. Another possibility, without me having torn apart their roster is the Saints.

Don't get me wrong, I love the way Dorsey has rebuilt this team, and I think that it is a very talented group. My 1-3 is an estimate.

j/c:

I think Dorsey has done a great job of upgrading our talent, but it's too early to rank our talent. Too many young guys that might step up, take a step backwards, or stagnate. Additionally, we have no idea how this team will mesh.

This question will be more relevant later in the year. Too early to discuss at this particular point in time.

The chargers are one of the teams I think could be real good ... not sure what they did this off season other than lose Ty Williams ... that shouldn’t hurt them much as they still have Benji to stretch the field and Mike Williams really came into his own last season ...

I’m not so sure on the rams anymore ... not sure what they did in the off season other than losing Suh and Gurley being a major question mark with his knee and there LT was contemplating retiring ... there probably still right there with us r at least very close ... i just haven’t followed there off season that closely ...

I’m just looking to stir up some discussion and figured i’d see if anyone else wanted to do a bit of a deep dive into rosters and how urs stacks up ...

Appearantly other than U no one else is even remotely interested ... *L* ...

Oh well, we tried ...

I forgot about the bears ... FG away from the playoffs last year ... have to see what they did this off season ...

In the AFC along with the two u mentioned i also like the chargers and the Jags ... Foles is a massive massive upgrade from Bortles ... i just need to check and see just how much they lost from there D this off season ...

One team that got hurt pretty good that no one is talking about is the Chefs ... they lost their entire pass rush n D .. the whole thing ... and they lost Hunt and Hill’s gonna miss some time .. question is how much ... will he see the field at all in 2019 and if he does will it be to late ... that team took more hits than anyone else IMO and its not even close ...

One thing that way too many do on here is think that last year and this year have anything in common ... for our direct competition in the division and conference ... every team took a hit ... NOT ONE OF THEM IMPROVED .. not a single one ...

Rats - there D took a butt kicking ...

Stilers - AB is HUGE ... i don’t count Bell cause they didn’t have him last year ... they did draft a potential real good LBer but he is a rookie and no way does he come close to making up for the loss of AB ..

Pats - Flowers/Gronk ... with them it don’t seem to matter as Billicheck is just that good ..

Chefs - major losses ...

The other teams in our conference I worry about from a talent standpoint are the Chargers, Colts and Jags ... i gotta take a look at them over the next few weeks for fantasy purposes anyhow ... if u wanna know what i find let me know ... *L* ...

Don't despair...it's early.

I know that the Rams added Eric Weddle, who replaced Joyner, who really fell off badly last year. They also added Bortles, who, for all of the abuse he took in Jacksonville, should be a competent backup QB.

I was watching NFL Live yesterday and Louis Riddick, whom I have a lot of respect for, said the one thing the Browns should be concerned about is the O-line. That's something that was mentioned by a few posters on this board. He went on to say how we have some new people and they will have to learn to work together as a unit. He went on to say what could happen without a good O-line which Browns fans already know about. Let's hope we stay healthy and gel as a unit so we don't have any issues.

I would be interested, but you and a couple of others already have your minds made up. It's hard to "discuss" things when people aren't willing to listen.

For example, I don't think the teams regressed as much as you claim they have. I also don't think it's time to proclaim some of our guys as all that great. It's kinda early for that. I think only OBJ, Landry, and Bitonio have had sustained success.

I also think you are leaving out teams such as the Colts and just how good certain players like Mahomes are.

You have been saying the same things over and over and that is fine. In fact, I admire your enthusiasm. It's fun. However, when I read your posts about this subject matter, I get the feeling you just want us all to agree w/you on each point. Again, that's not really a "discussion."

Not sure where to put this ... since i brought Hill up here this is as good a place as any ... if this is true it looks like they should get him back at some point this year ... prolly sooner than later ...


TYREEK HILL
WR, KANSAS CITY CHIEFS

According to NFL Network's Tom Pelissero, "barring any further developments, there is every reason to believe" Tyreek Hill will be back with the Chiefs before the start of next month's training camp.

This comes on the heels of a report that Johnson County police are no longer pursuing criminal charges against Hill, who had been under investigation for alleged child abuse against his three-year-old son. To this point Kansas City has banned Hill from all team activities, though Pelissero suspects the Chiefs will lift his suspension ahead of next month's training camp. Even if that happens, Hill, who previously pled guilty to domestic assault and battery after choking his pregnant girlfriend in college, will surely face a lengthy league-imposed suspension.

SOURCE: Tom Pelissero on Twitter
Jun 7, 2019, 2:09 PM ET

U know ... what about the J - E - T - S ... JETS JETS JETS ...

I know they brought in Bell and Mosley as headliners ... i think they did a few mid level type moves and had a high draft pick ...

I wonder how much they improved and if Sam’s ready to be that good ...

Thoughts?

Another thing on the rats ... they are going to have a receiving corps of almost all rookie WR’s and some 2nd and 3rd year TE’s ... even if Lamar turns into even a below average NFL passer its going to take this guys a year or two to really figure it out and get on the same page ... obviously getting Ingram is a huge get for there run game but there passing game is going to progress extremely slowly if at all due to the make up of their receiving corps and the youth of their QB ... i mean how much did Lamar really learn in his 10 game or so stint about reading nfl d’s ... his style of pay had to stunt his growth in that department ...

IMO the rats are in trouble ... i agree that the stilers are gonna be the ones chasing us that we have to worry about ...

I gotta go see what the jets did other than bell and Mosley ... i forgot about them ..

Just because u didn’t change my mind doesn’t mean i didn’t listen .... just because I don’t agree with u after discussion doesn’t mean my minds made up going in ... it means IMO your presentation didn’t carry enough weight to change my mind ...



Thats fine .. please elaborate so we can discuss ... or not ...



I agree ... what guys u referring too .. u wanna talk football, lets talk ... i know u gotta be excited about guys like Ward, MG, Chubb and Bake just to name a few ... our roster is extremely young ... its hard for a lot of them to have had sustained success ...

If u interested in a discussion i’d be curious to know if guys like Richardson and Vernon didn’t make your list for sustained success because u only named a few or if u don’t think they’ve had sustained success why u don’t think they have ..



I said the colts are one of the teams that may have as much talent as us more than once ... how is that leaving them out? ...

Mahommes lost Hunt and Hillfor at least 4 games or so ... losing Hunt HURTS ... ALOT ... I LOVE Mahommes ... i’d take him over Bake in a heartbeat and I LOVE BAKE ...

Just losing Hunt was gonna hurt him some ... throw Hill on top and he’s gonna “STRUGGLE” without those two out ... u don’t agree? .. please explain why if u don’t ...I’d like to know why u don’t think thats gonna hurt him big time ...



Of course i want u to agree with me on every point ... but its for your sake, not mine ...i want u to be right also ... ...

I say the same things over and over cause i believe them so IMO there facts that just haven’t been proven yet .. *L* ...

U wanna discuss with me ... please do .. its why i come here ...if u think i’m close minded and am not open to discussions thats your prerogative ... if u don’t wanna discuss that stinks but its fine .. just do me a favor and save the “your close minded” crap for your posse .... i won’t be responding to any more of your posts with that kind of crap in them .. i don’t deserve that from U ...

PS. Feel free to compare our rosters to others ... or not .... its what i was really looking for ..

You haven't been responding to any of my football posts anyway. I talked about all the various coverages. Not a peep from you. I talked about OL play. Not a peep. I talked about Wilks. Not a peep. I talked about the importance of a qb working on his game. Wait. You did reply to that one and acted like I had no clue what I was talking about.

You used to like to learn and talk football. Now, it's just this silly cheerleader crap or bashing OBJ. I could rely on you to ask questions or contribute your knowledge on football topics, but you have been ignoring the football posts like the plague. Most of what occurs on this forum is like a freaking soap opera w/not enough football talk. I would think the football guys would actually participate in football talk instead of all this personality BS.

You're irritating me w/this crap. I will probably get over it and try and respond, but I needed to punch you in the gut first.

And look..........I am very excited, but there are so many question marks. It's just too early to be making wild evaluations. And btw..........I just looked up the latest power rankings after the draft. We're 8th on the site I went to. Here is the link: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2833...l-draft#slide31

So you know the facts....care to share?