DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Duke Johnson

But he's paid less than those two... How can he be overpaid compared to people who are making as much as him?

Also, here's a pic of the stats that include attempts and receptions, which are important variables when dealing with gross numbers.


Again, one in the hand is worth two in the bush. Maybe Hilliard plays like an all pro in shorts, but like an UDFA when the pads are on. We really don't know much about him. I saw him throw an interception and catch a pass last year. That's not what a good football player makes.

So are you saying we use him so little that he's being overpaid in comparison to his usage? Because those stats would certainly indicate that.

No he's not.

He's going to be paid 3.1 mil this year. Dion Lewis, James White, Gio Bernard, Theo Riddick, McKinnon, Chris Thompson and Mark Ingram are all going to get paid more than Duke will this year. Next year Dion Lewis and McKinnon will still be ahead of him.

Also, I've never stated that he would or wouldn't be traded. I just said that comparing him to rookie contracts will not find you the market value. For the record, I don't think he'll be traded. He'll cost us money this year to get rid of him, and next year we'll save like 2 mil. That's pretty much nothing compared to guys like Kirksey, Schobert, Vice Grips, JC Tretter and many others will save cap wise. The cost benefit just isn't in his favor.

No, I'm saying that the market doesn't discriminate. Guess what a guy like Dion Lewis, James White and other gadget backup players are worth ~4 mil a season.

I would indeed agree that we've never properly utilized Duke Johnson because Hue Jackson and Mike Pettine are complete idiots.

Then you must add Freddie to the list of "complete idiots" right?

Here's a fact. If a player is not getting touches, his value is less. If he's not being worked into the game plan, he's not a value.

When Duke is getting less than half the touches of one and less than one fourth the touches of the other back you're trying to compare him to, he isn't worth as much to the team he's playing on.

Freddie had eight games with which to call more plays for Duke. He chose not to. So how much does that make him worth to the Browns?

Actually if you look at the splits for the past season, you see Duke Johnson's plays increase the further into Freddie's half season. He actually played more plays than Chubb did the final game of the season. But yeah, Freddie is an idiot for putting out a grade 3 fire and forgetting about Duke Johnson for 3 weeks Also Freddie Kitchens got forced married to an offense that wasn't his. Using his tendencies is short sighted considering a new change in offensive philosophy.

Is Duke overvalued in Cleveland? Probably. Although we don't know his role. Is he overvalued in the NFL? No. He's getting paid exactly as he should be getting paid. That's the only point I'm trying to make.

Hue was the only coach who used Duke a lot. Pet didn't. Haley didn't. And Freddie didn't.

I have posted the stats of Duke and similar backs several times when Hue was in charge of the offense. He had a very high usage rate back then. He didn't under any other coach, especially Haley.

There is so much misinformation distributed on this board.

Hue used Duke more than the other coaches you mentioned. It does not mean he used him a lot.

Duke was given four touches and four targets the last game of the season. Actually four rushing attempts were the most he had the entire time Freddie was our OC. The most rushing attempts he had the entire season was 5. He had a total of eight touches and Chubb had nine. You are incorrect.



He wasn't handcuffed into which plays to call. There were plays in the game plan for duke. It was his choice not to call them more. To further that point, in Freddie's first game calling the plays, Duke had nine targets, the following for weeks they were reduced to 4, 2, 3 and 0 targets.



And my point is two fold. The value of a player to his team is gauged by his usage and contribution. Secondly, nobody in the league thus far has been willing to pony up what you seem to feel he's worth.

Duke Johnson Snap Count:

2015- 51% of snaps (Pettine)
2016- 44% of snaps (Jackson)
2017- 53% of snaps (Jackson)
2018- 42% of snaps (Jackson/Williams)

To say "alot" compared to all coaches Duke's been with isn't necessarily true.

You always brag about how good you are at researching this site. How about you pull up the post[s] where I compared Duke's touches under Hue to similar backs in the league? I mean, you do want the truth, right? You would not want to deceive anyone, right? You're not simply trying to win an argument, right?

I said plays, not touches. Duke played 37 snaps last night and Chubb played 22 snaps.

https://subscribers.footballguys.com/teams/teampage-cle-6.php




And my point is two fold. The value of a player to his team is gauged by his usage and contribution. Secondly, nobody in the league thus far has been willing to pony up what you seem to feel he's worth. [/quote]

Yes, I agreed with your point that Duke is possibly overvalued on this team.
Your second point doesn't stand up because in football you can't offer cash considerations for players. So no, no team will offer Duke Johnson $4.5 mil a year. And since I don't believe that he'll be traded or cut, no other team will be able to "pony up what I seem to feel he's worth".

However, you do bring up a good point. He's not traded, thus the Browns have not received an offer that they think he's worth. It doesn't seem like the Browns think that he's worth a 6th rounder or Gerald McCoy. Maybe we have bigger plans for him. Interesting point you make.

Deceiving? Lol.

Being on the field is about at honest of a projection you can get to usage and opportunity.

OK....total touches (both rushing and receiving)

2015- 165 (Pettine)
2016- 126 (Jackson)
2017- 156 (Jackson)
2018- 87 (Jackson/Williams)

You claimed Hue was the only coach who used Duke Johnson alot.




No I don't. I say how easy and user friendly it is. Even a caveman can do it.

My comment on Hue using Duke more is not correct. His rookie year seems like his best year in terms of snaps and touches.

I knew you wouldn't look up the post. It's who you are.

Why am I responsible for looking up YOUR post from who knows how long ago simply after commenting on something you incorrectly stated today?

Let's revisit, shall we?

You:



In response, here is me:

My advise to you is to not say something incorrectly, get upset for it, and then try to shift the argument to something completely different.

I mean, getting upset about a post you made awhile ago that someone else didn't look up for you (that has nothing to do with your original point) is a horrible look. But whatever.

I was responding to this quote from CHS:



That was untrue.

I also have compared the amount of touches that Duke received when Hue was in charge of the offense and compared that to similar backs. You won't post it because you don't want the truth to come out.

I really don' care too much about this, but what CHS said was untrue and I corrected it.

I don't care what you were responding to. Whatever it was, you had incorrect information and I provided stats of said incorrect info, which also proved my assumption incorrectly of Hue using him more than anyone else.

Feel free to look up your own posts if you want to discuss Duke in a larger context outside of how the Browns used him. Again....even a caveman can do it.

Alright........I looked up Duke's touches in his career. I was wrong to say that Hue gave him more touches than any other coach. Unlike some others, I do not intend to deceive other posters. So, I will apologize for my mistake.

In 2015 under Pet: Duke had 104 carries [career high] and 61 receptions for a total of 165 touches. That was the most of his career.

In 2016, under Hue: Duke had 73 carries and 53 receptions for a total of 126 touches.

In 2017, under Hue: Duke had 82 carries and 74 receptions [career high] for a total of 156 touches.

In 2018, under Haley and Freddie: Duke had 40 carries and 47 receptions for a total of 87 touches. Both were career lows.

I apologize for the misinformation. I do want to add that I was correct for pointing out CHS' claim that Pet and Hue were idiots because they didn't use him enough.

Also, I know Memphis won't look up the stats that I provided on at least two occasions in regards to Duke's touches compared to similar backs while Hue was in charge of the offense. I compared him to guys like James White, Sproles, and a couple of others.

I would appreciate it if someone would post those stats to help paint a clearer picture of the "truth." I tried looking it up, but apparently I am dumber than a cave man.

I also want to add that it is pretty obvious that Duke's touches declined dramatically under Haley and Freddie last year. I don't know if that makes them idiots or not, but I think it needed to be pointed out.

Once again, I apologize for being wrong.


Oh, here is a link for the stats: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/J/JohnDu00.htm

No worries man….it doesn't matter. Duke is a dime a dozen player.

If we can't find a viable replacement for the guy, we have a problem.

Hilliard could catch 70 balls if that is what Baker decided to do.

For any that don't, it's because "that's who you are".

Dime a dozen? I wouldn't go that far. He's been very productive, and that's not going by stats, it's going by eyeball test.

He's not an every-down back, but when given the opportunity in the right circumstances, he's been a weapon.

umm you are a better man than me. I'm never wrong.

I think people are analyzing this too much and not looking at the core of it enough. this is my take on it. Duke finds out that the front office talked about him in some trade deals...i am sure there were a lot of names being thrown about. He got butt hurt and asked for a trade. Now he is all over the place crying about wanting to be some place he feels he is wanted. Well, buddy, you didnt get traded. No one offered them what they thought he was worth, so apparently they like him. Theres probably like 5-6 guys on the team that were untouchable in trade talks, that doesnt mean they dont want him.

To me, it seems he is being overly sensitive about it.

No doubt. The fact remains finding viable receiving backs isn't all that hard, thus the dime a dozen label. No doubt he is very good at what he does. Most decent teams have that back who is going to catch nearly everything throw at him and have decent YAC.

I think we place more value on Duke because in past years he was the primary option because we didn't have many others. Something tells me that with Baker, Odell, Jarvis, Calloway, and Higgins, not to mention Njoku, our primary option isn't going to be the back slipping in to the flat.

Things have changed.

Don't whine when you're given a taste of your own medicine. You start the insults and the cry when you get it in return.

It's actually pretty simple and if you ever actually bothered to read an entire thread you would see that I had spelled out my reasoning prior. But since actually following a thread isn't your cup of tea, I'll spell it out again.

Trade talks and player relations is something to be handled by coaches and the FO. That's a part of their job description. Players, in most cases, do not get involved in commenting about trades or differences concerning their team mates and the FO. There is a difference between what the job of management and players are.

The only time you generally hear players comment is when it's a long, drawn out deal that has become a huge distraction to the team like the Le'Veon Bell episode in Pittsburgh. When a team mate actually holds out and major drama endues. That's not the case here.

I repeated several times that it wasn't a big deal but it's something that shouldn't have been said by Baker. That young people often do and say silly things and get out of their lane. Then..... you came along and are trying to make it a big deal.

Go give somebody else a hard time. Your silly game is getting old. And you weren't talking football to begin with, so save it.

with the league focus on passing....almost every team has RB labeled as a RB but hes really a check down arrow route kind of receiving option.
Duke isnt just that special.
hes a dime a dozen.
he was a heavily used player on historically bad offense or 2.
its not hard to overhype a player thats played
on bad offenses.

Lots of people in the thread are showing that they don't watch football, but even worse that they don't play in PPR leagues.

Eh, The Duke was never one to complain before. I try to give him the benefit of the doubt, but it seems the more he talks about it, the harder it is for me to do that.

The guy wants his next payday, and he's not going to get that riding the bench. We suddenly have an unbelievable RB room, pushing him down the pecking order, as well as lots of mouths to feed throughout the offense. The guy knows what means, and knows what's in his best interest as far as that next payday.

You are correct, before this, he never complained,, but it's probably because he never felt the need

I watch football and have been in 2 Keeper PPR leagues, $500 entry, for nearly 10 years. I have kept Duke in one of them for 3-4 years now. He helped a few years ago, but not much last season, a season I won some real money by winning, and not playing the guy very often....mostly as a bye week option. I couldn't keep Phillip Lindsay on the bench to play Duke after about 2-3 weeks.

I will take the arrows,

Duke signed a contract, it is fair market value. A precedent must be set.

I trust JD will not do DJ wrong, no bridges will be burned, but it may be around week 6. Duke was loyal to us, let’s let it breathe, for repórtate

The players respect Duke

To add to the above, I found a quote from OBJ in another thread that jives with this very well.

j/c:

I was watching Nate Burrelson talk about the Baker/Duke situation the other day. Nate is a former NFL WR and is now on Good Morning Football and one of the Game Day shows.

He cautioned Baker to "be careful. Calling out teammates regarding management decisions can be a problem. Also, what will Baker do when his contract is up?

There is an unwritten rule in professional sports that you never mess w/another man's money. That's why it was so surprising last year when a couple of Steeler offensive linemen questioned Bell's motives.

I would have no problem w/Baker talking to Duke one-on-one and he may have. However, there was no need to say what he did to the media.

Now, cue the personal attacks.

Baker is the leader of this team and he sees Duke causing trouble by continually asking to be traded, I have no problem with what Baker said, I love Duke but either get on the train or get off ... JMHO

Any rational person would agree with this.

Baker went out of bounds on what he said. He took his role as leader too far. He took his role as "warrior Cleveland Brown who's going to turn around the organization" too far. He took his "you're with us or without us" too far.

As a leader he behaved like anything but in this case. Dukes situation is really none of his business. I'm disappointed in what Baker did.

Anyone defending Baker is simply not being objective.

This topic has been so overblown and proof that news programs should never extend past 30 minutes a day.

Baker Mayfield was asked about Duke Johnson before Duke spoke to the media. He essentially said you're either with us or not. Duke then came out 30 mins later and said he only requested a trade because the Browns were shopping him and said that he wants to be where he's wanted. That happened on Monday and it's been reported that Baker and Duke have been joking around during camp. The story should've been put on hold then.

But nope the media needs stories so they can sell ad space, so they take a microscope to any story that might have a morsel of drama, then they sink their teeth into it. They'll cover anything for air time. So I don't care what former Browns legend and pizza lover Nate Burrelson thinks.