DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus And Dems want me to pay for this with tax dollars?

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Elisha Bokman has been out of school for eight years. Still, her student loan balance is half a million dollars.

Today, for her doctorate degree in naturopathic medicine and master’s in acupuncture from Bastyr University, she owes $499,322.69.

She and her husband struggled to buy a house because of her debt. Eventually, the financial stress led them to a divorce. “He felt like he couldn’t live his life or do the things he wanted to do,” Bokman, 38, said. She wanted to open her own medical practice, but she said her student debt prevents her from getting a business loan.

“It really effects the remainder of your life,” Bokman said. “There’s no out.”

The average college graduate leaves school $30,000 in the red today, up from $10,000 in the 1990s. Yet much larger balances are becoming more common.

Around 178,000 graduate students owed more than $100,000 in the 2015-2016 academic year, up from 51,000 in 2003-2004, according to Mark Kantrowitz, the publisher of SavingForCollege.com. In the first quarter of 2019, over 6% of all student loan borrowers owed more than $100,000, up from 5.4% in 2017.

Recently, Democratic presidential candidates Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders have proposed forgiving student debt. Warren’s plan would reduce people’s tabs by up to $50,000, whereas Sanders’ would erase it all.

Rebecca Grable loves her job as a pharmacy manager at Walgreens. But to study at the University of Oklahoma to become a doctor of pharmacy, she borrowed more than $310,000, and said the debt has limited her options. A few years ago, when she tried to buy a car, she said, more than 11 banks denied her a loan.

“I feel like I’m stuck under it,” Grable, 27, said.

Balancing other bills is a challenge. “I just never imagined being a professional who still lives paycheck to paycheck,” she said.

Bokman’s and Grable’s financial records were reviewed by CNBC.

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Acupuncture and naturopathic medicine. $500,000 STILL owed on loan. SERIOUSLY?!?

"Some" democrats do.

Mayor Pete do...

Buttigieg campaign spokesman Chris Meagher confirmed to IndyStar that the Buttigiegs owe $131,296 in student loan debt. According to a campaign filing obtained by IndyStar, the couple has:

-20 loans outstanding
-interest rates range from 3.4% - 6.8%
-opened between 2009 and 2017
-15 loans represent more than $100,000 and are on an income-based repayment program (a federal student loan repayment program)

As usual you just spew BS.

According to his website, Buttigieg supports a “state-federal partnership that makes public tuition affordable for all and completely free at lower incomes -- combined with a large increase in Pell Grants that provides for basic living expenses and keeps up with inflation.”

It says she borrowed $310,000

How did it get to $500k? Interest? late payment fines and penalties?

And the U of Oklahoma? Seems like some seriously heavy duty tuition. That's close to Ivy League type money.

As Pit said, only "SOME" of the Dems want that. don't lay it on all of them.

No BS.

Here it is again...

Pete Buttigieg Owes $130,000 Of Student Loans - Here's His Plan

https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2019/06/10/student-loans-pete-buttigieg/#5eeeeb11d29a

and again...

Pete Buttigieg has $130,000 in student loan debt—here’s where he stands on the issue
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/11/pete-and-chasten-buttigieg-have-130000-in-student-loan-debt.html

Quit playing Trump spin. There's a difference in having college debt and claiming someone advocates free college. Even you're smart enough to figure that out. Even though you pretend not to be.

And why would his college debt be an issue? You support someone who proudly claims to be "The king of debt".

At least you admit Mayor Pete and his husband are in hock up to their eyebrows.

I guess that's how you describe most college graduates these days. At least he served in the military. Unlike Private Bone Spurs.

Oh look - we found an extreme example of a idiot. Let's use it to say that all people with student debts are idiots and shouldn't be helped.

It's a lot like using Enron or Mardoff as examples of why Capitalism and the free market is bad.

smh

No kidding. She got degrees in snake oil sales. She could have gone to premed and got a legitimate degree to practice real medicine...earned plenty of money to pay off her loans and then branched off into naturopathy or whatever you want to call it. I don't want my tax dollars paying off useless college degrees.

Yes, she borrowed $500K+ to get a job with an average starting salary of $40K and an average salary of $75K... if you bust your butt and have a very successful practice with partners you can get into 6 figures...

The person who borrowed $310K is not the same person that currently owes $500K... two different people.

My guess is that these loans aren't all about tuition/room and board, they were both probably borrowing money to live on as well, which is not uncommon.

It is by far the worst way to get through college... it's expensive, that's not a surprise to anybody.. but when you have $400K in debt as you finish your masters (hypothetically).. who in their right mind just keeps borrowing and deferring payment on everything while they get their PhD? have some common sense people.

Cases like this are the reason I might be able to get behind an Elizabeth Warren approach, that the government could come up with a deal to alleviate a portion of it up to the $50K mark or something.. but to just write a blank check the way Bernie wants to is just insane.... at some point these people to pay for their own stupidity.

The loan forgiveness is a good thing. Why? Well, let's look at teaching as an example.
You have to have a Masters. That's 6 years. Let's say you go to an instate public university like, Portland State. In-State Tuition and fees at Portland State is just under 27k (Colleges like to quote just their tuition, which is only 1/3 of the overall cost) and that is normal and actually erring on the cheap side. Many are 35k+. Assuming one graduates in 4 years with a Bachelors that will cost you 100k+. Then you need to go for either one more year for a MAT or 2 years for an MS/MA/MFA etc. Graduate programs are usually more expensive than BA. So, another 30-60k! So, as a teacher you walk out of school with at least $130k, but maybe 160k in debt. The state average salary for a first year teacher in Oregon is 37k. Portland metro area pays more due to the higher cost of living, but not that much more to offset inflation, housing costs and student debt. So, a teacher starts the game with a ridiculous amount of debt that often stops them from getting on the property ladder and makes them a slave to the debt. Is that fair?

Now, a doctor or lawyer...they will walk out with a lot of debt too, but they also immediately walk into a much higher paying job with significant opportunities for financial advancement compared to a teacher. I'm not saying the amount of money they earn compared to their debt is fair either. Just comparing the two professions.

To me, loan forgiveness will help, in particular, your middle class citizen will be able to contribute to the capitalist economy by getting into real estate sooner, having more money to spend etc.

The big question Sanders and I believe Warren are asking is WHY does it cost as much to go to University? I mean, honestly? Think about it. Public schools will receive money from the state, not enough, but still...they will be part of the education fund. Does it really need to cost 28-36k to go to a public state uni? Then, if you don't have a good guidance counselor to help you plan your courses you could end up taking things that you don't need or don't go towards your major, which will ultimately delay you and push you to a 5 year student costing more.

But, if you have ever been on a campus of a regular state university they are pretty luxurious. Imagine the private schools! The other thing...I know this is a football forum and college ball is the feeder system to NFL, however, it's worth mentioning in comparison to soccer, VB or basketball...football is a massive expenditure on any school's budget. Smaller schools are having to choose if they want to drop FB as it costs SO much to run a football program (and several of them are axing the program). If you are OSU and you have 70k+ people going to the game that generates a huge amount of cash to help pay for the program and all of its expenditures. But, if you are a small school of 16k students...it's a waste of money and I am sure it contributes to admission costs.

I agree that SL debt for teachers and other professions that contribute to society should be offered some relief, and I know that in Ohio they'll forgive a teacher's loan if they give x amount of years to a needy school district. But to forgive a massive loan for a liberal arts or other useless degree? No frickin' way.

First, you do not NEED a masters degree to teach in Oregon, you NEED a bachelors, you can go back and get the masters later if you want.

Second, your example is based on a few assumptions. One being that nobody has saved a dime to pay for the kid entering college. Second is that they can't go to school somewhere that they can live at home. Third is that they can't go to junior college to get some primary course work out of the way. And fourth is that even without a dime saved, they don't qualify for a single grant or award out of the nearly $50 billion the federal government makes available or the millions of dollars the state of oregon makes available.

What you have presented here is not some kind of a "normal" occurrence.. it's an absolute worst case example of somebody who didn't put an ounce of thought into how they were going to get through this process... but rather just blindly went in borrowing all of the money they could for as long as they could...

I'm not saying college is fairly priced, it's not. It's a sham. I'm not saying teachers make enough, they don't. It's a shame.. but let's keep it realistic..

I teach in Oregon. Oregon didn't use to require it and there are many boomers who are grandfathered in, but you need a Masters. Certainly in the Portland metro area that has the highest population. As many other states require a Masters I am also pretty certain that if somebody applies with only a Bachelor's and the other candidates have Masters they will probably not even make it to the interview stage. Also, you are paid more with a Masters degree (still not enough in comparison to the debt and teachers don't get raises like other professions).




I understand I was making assumptions...I was literally throwing out the cost of a 4-year In-State fees at a public uni. AND I clearly stated that the central question Sanders and Warren are actually asking is why is higher education so flippin' expensive? Is it the same reason that drug companies charge so much for their prescriptions? Profit, profit profit? I also understand that for non-profit schools that money has to go back into the school, but let's see how it spent. If our #1 goal is to educate do we really need schools that look like holiday resorts? Why do they even look like holiday resorts in the first place? Because more and more people go to college and there is more competition now than ever and they all compete for your dollar. People like the glitz and the first impressions. I am pretty sure that they are banking their money on wowing people initially by the Rec center, the student union and the aesthetics rather than the academics that are offered.

But, that gets into the dangerous question of what is a useless degree? Is Anthropology useless? Is Psychology? Sociology? Who makes those decisions?

I just met with a cultural anthropologist who works at the Museum of Anthropology in Vancouver, BC...he researches, writes and lectures about cultural history of various nations. Is that a useless degree & profession?

I understand that a masters makes you a better candidate and would get you a little more money.. but the requirement I got from an Oregon education website.. sorry if I misspoke.

As for your post on why college is expensive.. yes, I've outlined much of that in previous posts and we seem to be largely in agreement.

As for funding, it is much easier for a college to get funding to build something that generates revenue than something that does not... a student rec center generates student fees, can get funding.. a science building is not considered revenue generating, harder to get funding... a dorm or a dining hall generates a lot of revenue, very easy to get funding... etc. So yes, the most important buildings on campus are the hardest to get funded.

There are a couple reasons they are like resorts.. simplest is to keep the college full, which seems pretty obvious. Beyond that is to attract the best students with the most options.. those with the better GPAs and test scores who could conceivably go to any college they choose.. those are the kids they are really trying to attract. It improves the colleges standing if the average student entering has a higher GPA. The average GPA entering NC State is a 4.37 on a 4.0 scale.. that's the freaking average.

Better students with better GPAs also allows them to attract more qualified faculty, which in turn improves their standing and rankings.. it brings in more high profile grant money from public sources and private industry for the faculty to conduct research, etc...

It's a shell game that all comes back to needing the students with the highest GPAs to want to go there.. and even those "academic" students are still more impressed with luxury living suites and rec centers with indoor pools, yoga rooms, and free Starbucks than they are with science and math buildings..

Talking about how expensive education is - made me remember a podcast I listened to about how much money most/many Universities have stashed away. It's staggering what the wealthiest Universities are worth ..... a little off topic but none the less interesting.

https://thebestschools.org/features/richest-universities-endowments-generosity-research/

Not at all if the degree prepared him for a viable career.

From the Oregon TSPC: "certain levels of certification require that the candidate hold a masters or higher".

This isn't just for administration. Every K-12 teacher I know in the Portland metro area, unless they were grandfathered in, holds a Masters. I have been on interview committees and every new hire has a masters. There are too many people moving here from various states like CA, WA that require Masters. Now, if you are applying for a job in rural Oregon with population 2k do you need a Masters? Possibly not. Portland metro, Salem, Eugene, Bend, Ashland...yes, you will.






Go to Europe and look at their universities. Take England for example....Cambridge, Oxford Univ of London, London School of Economics, Durham University etc. these schools are academically up there with the best of US schools ("Oxbridge" are up there with Harvard/Yale) and they are just buildings. They were built at a time when all one wanted and needed was a higher education or research facility.

Not just the top standards...Cal State University system targets a different population than Univ of Calif. Their campus' look like resorts too. Southern Oregon University looks like a small resort compared to its larger sister's The Univ of Oregon or Oregon State. Portland State is an urban campus, but it has access to everything the city offers plus a nice rec center/field etc.

The American perception is everything needs to look good on the surface...the nitty gritty isn't as important as its aesthetics or what wows them. That is definitely an entitlement that pushes the price up. I can make direct comparisons with this entitlement to selling a house in Europe compared to selling one in the US. I have done both...it's amazing the difference between the two house buyers. Take two 110 year old houses..same condition, same interior decor etc. and the American entitlement of what they want is full on in your face on our side of the Atlantic.

Ok, Then what is a dangerous degree? Poetry from a 60k private Lib Arts college? Yes, I might agree on that one. But, even w/poetry one would have an English degree and be able to teach. Do they need to go to Reed College for that compared to Portland State at half the cost? No they don't. That to me is the real issue.

Income based repayment. If this person owed $310k at say 4% interest over 20 years, that's a $1878.54/mo payment. Since I highly doubt she could afford that, she went on Income based repayment. Income based repayment lets you lower the monthly price, but it does _not_ provide forgiveness by itself. Your leftover interest gets rolled into the principal. You need PSLF to get forgiveness.

I have multiple people who work for me with $100k in student loan debts on IBR, and in their case it barely pays the interest. They work in highly sought after STEM jobs and are quite good at what they do.

many people feel STEM degrees are worth subsidizing but not say, anthropology. I disagree with this view but even if we include it, please look at my example above. If my STEM majors are on IBR being paid a competitive market rate for Ohio, what luck will a non STEM major have?

I think this problem needs to be nipped in the bud, not after the fact on taxpayers backs. State school tuition prices need major requlation and caps and community college should be free. These should not be set up as resort lifestyle colleges. They should be a modest get an education and get out deal.

Private schools can charge whatever they want and have whatever luxury features they want. And then you suck it up and pay your bill because you chose to go there. No crying afterwards.

Here's the problem Eve: Colleges/universities are in the business mode, first and foremost. Education is secondary.

What do I mean? Colleges and Universities are looking for business - students. How do they do that? Get wonderful, new buildings and facilities to entice their customers to pay. We'll educate you later, pay now. And hey, we offer a major in interior design. and a major in 'collegiate studies', and a major in basket weaving.

Once you pay us 100,000, you'll get this piece of paper that says you spent 4-5 years here. And we'll be able to upgrade our rec center, and add a lazy river right through campus, and more of us 'educators' will get tenure.

lots or reading, ... so what conclusion do I draw.

As a society we pay teachers too much, or, as a society we pay professors too much, or as a society we pay educational institutions too much.

I think there's a way to distribute the education at a lower cost,

But! This has been going on for a long time.

edit: explanation, if there existed a way in which the act of going in to student debt were impossible,

financial norms would dictate that the ones procuring the education would not be able to get a higher price for distributing it, than the ones receiving it were able to pay.

But! like I said! It's been going on a long time... this is a problem that it's too late to have fixed.

Thats exactly why I'm saying there needs to be some regulations. They are STATE schools. They receive a large amount of funding from their state and the feds. The govt needs to add some regulations if they want to continue to be eligible for state school status.

The govt can totally control this if they want to. Upfront.

Because asking tax payers to pony up the funding for these schools upfront, and then asking taxpayers to pay off these bills after the fact is ridiculous.

But that would require government regulations and according to a lot of people those are all bad.

If people suddenly didnt have to worry how they would afford college for their kids...I guarantee you they wont think its bad.

I don't know Eve. It will negatively impact a lot of business profits of colleges, builders and make it harder for these colleges to draw the best pupils and professors.

You know any time you mention regulations the usual suspects will cry foul.

But i certainly agree with you that cutting tuition costs is a much better way of going about tackling the problem than putting all the burden on the tax payer.

I dont think so.

If youre a young person or a parent of the lower or middle class, and your options look like:

Free Community College with not much in the way of amenities. Hello vending machine, or small cafeteria.
State College for 20k per year with average amenities, located in a college town that has all the fun a college kid would want.

Total tuition for 4 year degree = 40k

OR

Private college with resort lifestyle amenities. 70K per year

Total tuition = 280K

Which option do you feel the average family will opt for? Are you going for an education or to live in a resort?

As a tax payer I dont feel like paying for the bill for your kids resort lifesyles, while they party and earn their english literature degrees.

I said I agreed with you. My point was any time you harm the gravy train some people will complain.

I can agree with that. They need to suck it up and not take advantage of young people.

We are realizing that federal guarantees for loans can cause asset bubbles. We did that with easy guarantees for home loans during the GFC, underwriting cruddy securites and rolling them into CDOs with a bunch of other cruddy mortgages.

Last I checked, to get a federal loan for school all you need is a GED, no defaults on existing federal loans, and maintain a 2.0 GPA. I think that's a great bar for people applying for in-state schools. I think it's a horrible bar for people applying to private universities where tuition can quickly balloon.

I think most would be OK with having fully state/federal-subsidized for your most common institutions (community college/in state college), and offsetting the cost of that tuition by eliminating all federal loan backing for out of state schools and private schools. I have no idea if that would be a good "tilt" to the scales, but having a conversation along those lines could be explored.

I've said for a while now there is an easy fix. For those that want to walk the halls and campuses of the ivy league colleges, let them be charged accordingly... but the information being bought and sold is still just information, and that information can be transmitted over the internet with testing in a structured learning format for pennies! Hire the very best of the best to teach courses on their expertise and put them online to teach the masses! Make higher learning and ongoing higher learning 'highly available and cheap' as the new American Standard of education. Courses that require 'hands on experience or labs' can be made available for much much less to all that need them in satellite campuses across the country. This way everybody gets what they can afford and America's workforce is only limited by their 'willingness' to learn. 10 years later and we are permanently number 1 in innovation, education, production etc... but it all starts with affordable education for everyone who wants it. We built the internet, let's use it for good. Let's dominate the world with our tech. It's a no brainer IMHO.

I think you're focusing on the wrong thing. Why the hell does ANY degree cost that much. I am with the dems on this garbage. They artificially inflate tuition....if people couldn't borrow money from the government NO ONE would pay these outrageous fees and the free market would reset these outrageous tuition prices. As it is, they let an 18 y/o CHILD take outs loans when they probably need a cosign for a friggin credit card.

This lady owes literally four years of my salary. That is damn near Indentured Servitude.

To be fair, Interior Designers can make a decent living. The problem is, there are too many designers in comparison to the number of 6 figure jobs. Many probably end up teaching or working for significantly less compared to their student debt.

People often use the acronym STEM, but the field has/is changing to STEAM (A=Arts). We shouldn't sell ourselves short on our creativity. Afterall, creativity is what continues to separate the west from the east. That said, I agree that you don't have to pay 60k p/year to go to a private college to study the arts.

I work at Adobe, can speak to the profitability of creativity, with their ~150Bn market cap.

Then we have the trumps and the 1% who bride their way through college because of their IQ deficiency.

That's exactly why I think this is a put up job... I question if it's even real.

As for your tax dollars not paying off useless college degrees:

1. Would it be ok if they became a Dr?

2. Are you the guy that gets to decide what is useless and what is not?

3. Instead of your tax dollars going to pay for education of Americans, would you rather they go to wars where US citizens and many who are not citizens of the US die.. is that a better use of your tax dollars.

4. Are you against Higher education?