DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus And Dems want me to pay for this with tax dollars?

I'm not sure why you think it's a zero sum game here. As you know, I'm somewhat of a moderate on most subjects.

I don't believe putting the entire burden on the tax payer is a sound solution. Nor do I think a student should be able to walk away from a 4 year degree debt free.

But giving two years of community college is a good middle ground that would provide them with many credits towards their degree and greatly reduce their overall debt.

I'm also with Eve on this that since public universities are subsidized by the government they are required to answer to the government in regards to tuition prices. So there are ways to force tuition prices down.

I also believe that all student loans should be tied to the prime interest rate which would lower the rates on these loans and reduce the cost a great deal over the length of the loans.

The "everything is free" idea isn't a practical or a common sense solution. It does draw in the youth vote however. We both know that that is mostly hot air as it would never pass through congress and the senate and would never be passed into law. It's the kind of silly campaign promises we see from both sides to cater to their constituents to help get them elected that they can never deliver.

1. Yes. Provided they work x number of years in the field and maybe provide some pro bono care for the needy. It's what Ohio does with teachers now.

2. No, but I wouldn't mind having some input. We taxpayers shouldn't pay for high dollar loans associated with every degree available. It should be weighted towards need, such as healthcare, law enforcement, education etc.

3. Lol. Where in the hell did that come from?

4. See #3

Going back to the OP...You should all watch Elizabeth Warren on my "Education" thread. FF to her spot. She speaks for 10 min.

Listen, in particular to her "2 cents for every 1% who earns more than 50m" and what that 2 cents p/dollar can pay for. That is 2-3 min of your life and then explain to me why you don't think this is a good idea for our nation.

Please note, by me pointing this out I am not declaring my support of Warren. It's far too early in the game for me to get behind anybody just yet, but I do think she was by far the most passionate Dem speaker that day. She was once a Special Educational Needs teacher so she "gets it" .

j/c:

I admit I am not very educated about the ins-and-outs of student loans, so my comments might be incorrect or misguided.

But, from what I do know I have two thoughts on this and they are completely separate.

1. Higher level education is much too expensive. I have multiple degrees and I understand first-hand how inflated the costs are at our universities, colleges, etc.

2. I have a hard time w/someone knowingly taking a loan out and then refusing to pay it, while expecting the rest of us to pick up their tab.

My wife and I both paid for our college educations through scholarships, working while attending school, and I even got a small loan which I paid back immediately because I was working while getting my third degree.

Neither of us want to pay for others to attend college by increasing our taxes. I suspect there are many more who feel the same way we do.

The solution? I'm not sure, but perhaps measures should be taken to lower the price of higher education. Perhaps folks should consider all the consequences of taking out huge loans before they commit to them?

Or perhaps those responsible for dispensing the knowledge (information) needed to obtain a higher quality job in today's workforce should not be allowed to ration that knowledge based on terms that amount to indentured servitude... knowledge is power.

Imagine the improvements we could make to k-12 if only a percentage of this college expense money was diverted to paying teachers and building/maintaining those schools. Our current system of education needs a major overhaul.

Right.

The Ohio Lottery was sold to us as a cure all. It was going to fund k-12 education.

Look where that got us. Give gov't. a dollar to fix a problem, they create a need for 4 dollars.

The government shouldn't be in the business of loaning people money for college. Thats the problem in the 1st place.

Banks should be the ones doing the loaning....they would have troulbe getting approved you say?

its idiotic to loan someone a half million dollars when they got no job, no collateral, no money to put down, no property to put up. Thats why were in this damn mess in the 1st place.

it would be illegal for any bank to loan someone that kinda money without collateral and some kinda % of cash, yet we are going to loan college students 6 figures and millions with nothing down?

Its no wonder our government is broke, SMH

This forum is so full of extremists. Investing in education can be seen as a positive.

There are very few discussions here. It's all about talking at one another. My way is 100% right and your way is 100% wrong.

Freaking annoying.

Sorry for my brief tirade.

Let me try again. Not that anyone will care...LOL.....but, allow me to expound.

Banks are in the business of making money. They exploit people. They are not there to help people. Bankers are just con men w/legal permission to exploit people.

Our government should not be confused w/banks. Our government should prioritize the good of the nation, including its people.

A stronger, more educated population equates to a stronger nation.

Let me tell you a story to demonstrate the importance of education. Shortly after the Civil War and the Emancipation Proclamation, there were laws passed in the south. Most of you have heard of them. The Jim Crow Laws and others that were similar in nature.

One of the most interesting laws went something like this: Any white man who is discovered to be educating a black man will be thrown in jail and the black man will be subjected to a public whipping.

Think about what that means. Why would the men in power jail a white man for educating a black man and then whip the black man in public before the entire town?

I think the answer is fairly simple. Those in power understood that knowledge is power. They understood that an educated man is a greater adversary. They understood that they could control and exploit the black population if they kept them ignorant. Yes, that's right. Ignorant.

Think about it. How can one legally defend oneself if he can't read or write? How can he defend himself if he is incapable of understanding the laws and his rights?

Changes have been made. Advances have been made. Many have come to understand that all folks are entitled to an education. Many know that a more educated society is one that is more productive. Education is the key to unlocking one's full potential and if we nourish enough of those individuals, we are not only assisting the said individual, but we are building a stronger America.

The thought of not wanting to educate our population is either the mindset of those who wish to exploit others or the thoughts of fools.

No more tenure for college professors!!!

Great post. If we do not have an educated society we will soon fall behind. I see the rapid rise of young and brilliant minds in China. They are working on AI and Machine Learning. If we aren't careful we could lose our brain advantage that encourages others to come here on OPT and H1B in favor of other places.

It's a shame we treat education as a bad thing in this country, both by young and old.

I'm glad you understand the importance of education. I'm hoping that more folks like you will speak up and we can change the perception of the value of education in this country.

I no longer am in the teaching profession, but I still tutor. I get paid way more per hour [I charge $60 per hour for families that are not very wealthy and up to $120 per hour for the wealthy folks. They are more than glad to pay it because they know the value of an education and getting ahead of one's peers.

With that said as a prerequisite, I think we should pay teachers more. We pay plumbers, mechanics, factory workers, etc more than we pay teachers. Think about that. What's more important to our country. One's toilet or one's education?

We must change the mindset of America.

You brought up China. That reminds me of another story. Sorry for the anecdotes, but I think they add substance to the argument.

I always taught high school and middle school. However, when I came to SC, I didn't want to coach any longer and I took a job teacher 5th grade. It was wonderful. Kids at the age are still respectful for the most part and haven't yet lost their enthusiasm for learning. They are also just coming to the age where you reason w/them. They are developing their critical thinking skills. Some kids never develop them and never reach higher-level thinking. The ages of 10-12 are critical, no pun intended.

Anyway, I had a female student from China. Her name was Maggie Lue. Extremely intelligent. Wonderful math skills. I taught her in the gifted math class. I think there were others who were in her same intelligence range, but she blew them away because she--and her family--valued education.

Did everyone see that? It's important. She and her family valued education.

Every day before class, she would come to me and ask me how to do such and such a problem. I would say, "Maggie, I will write some examples out for you and give them to you later in the day and you can question me later if they aren't clear." You know....class was about to begin.

She would ask me things like how do you find the circumference of a circle? How do you graph plots on a line graph? How do you find absolute value inequalities? On and on.

What a joy to teach.

Perhaps manipulatively, I used her to motivate other students. You know, American students who think education is a chore rather than an opportunity or a gift. I would occasionally bring up her questions to the class. I would expound on how that type of thinking is a key to success. I would try and encourage others to do the same thing.

And many of them did. These intelligent kids didn't like being shown up by Maggie May [as I called her] and stepped up their game.

Maggie won several math tournaments and actually was off the charts on the MAP diagnostic tests that our state schools put so much value on. LOL......I am not making that up. She was off the charts. No one at her age level in the state had scored that high before.

Maggie used to tell me that she did not understand why American children did not embrace school. She said things were very different in China. In fact, they went to school almost all day. Well, it was twice a day for long periods of time w/a lot of physical exercise in between.

China is kicking our ass in many ways. We are in debt up to our necks w/China. They have been dominating the commercial market for years when it comes to products and American companies that were once giants are now extinct or on the verge of it.

Time to wake up, America! Your laziness, entitlement, and obsession w/your own individual rights is a hindrance to not only you, but to America as a whole.

Is that Spanish?

Thanks for sharing the story! I thought it was great and I absolutely agree with you that families who value education together will often benefit from that group effort.

My dad has asked me for years if I'll go back and get my Bachelors in Computer Science. I only have an associates. I started working as a programmer at 20, I'm 35 now. My annual income is way greater now than when I started. I don't want to talk specifics, so I'll use a derivative and say my annual income has increased over 1000% in 15 years. Yet all my dad cares about is when I'm going to learn more! I want to push that onto my kids. I think it's a great example.

My wife's family got a bit irked at me when I told them I have 3 529 plans for my boys. I unfortunately started my oldest later at 3 years old, but my twin boys had 529s almost as soon as I got their social security numbers. Why were they irked at me, you may ask? Well they had several questions, including but not limited to:

• dont assume they will go to college
• college isn't everything
• you dont need college for a good job, folks here in (small town PA) can make $100k driving trucks
• what if they go into the trades

And hey, these aren't bad questions at all. But I think they miss the mark significantly. The mark to me, is how do I demonstrate the value of education to my children? I feel the best way to demonstrate that is by example. This isn't to say I think everyone should be on a 529 plan. I just believe that if you can lead by example with your time, you must do that. If you have to settle for leading by example by showing you will use your time for work to invest in your children, then I'll do that. I work alot of hours so my children can be raised at home with a loving mother. It can be hard for me to be present if I'm travelling for work, or working late to fix a problem. My hope is that this will help show by example that I care about their future and want to help them succeed.

My only other big life lesson for them is to open a Roth IRA when they get their first job. I don't mean post grad, I mean as a teenager

So the Chinese are going to be responsible for Sky Net

It should be illegal...simple as that.

I think this is spot on. Many impoverished homes don't value education. They don't see it as a way out. A way to a better life. Likewise, many middle class families complain about the taxes they have to pay for schools. They complain about teacher salaries, how the schools aren't doing a good job, etc. Kids hear of that and what kind of attitude do you think they adopt? One of my biggest challenges as an educator is to convince these young minds of just how important education is.

It's folks like you that get it. You provide a good example for your children. Your children are much more likely to succeed in education just because of the positive foundation you have laid at their feet.

It would be cool if you could help them at home, too. I started my kids very early. I put all of Dolch's Sight Words on flash cards. I didn't buy them, instead I hand wrote them and then taped them in strategic locations in the house. One would be by their bedroom door, another in by the exit for the kitchen and another leaving the bathroom. I would leave them there until they mastered the words. I did the same thing w/simple math problems. 2 + 3 = 5. I started both when they were 2 years old. By the time they got to kindergarten, they were far ahead of their peers. I've told this story before, but my son was doing problems like 97 x 5 in his head before he ever entered school.

I'm telling you and others that because it's important to value on education. You did a smart thing for your sons so that tells me you are in a good place. Another thing you can do is help out at school. Your career might prevent you from spending time at school, but perhaps you could fit in some time during Career Day. Sounds like your job is interesting. Donating resources is another way. Students also love if one of their parents or grandparents come and have lunch w/them. I always made a point of going over to talk to those folks and let them know what a fine child they had and how I admired how they had made time to come see their children at school. Even if you don't have that kind of time, it's nice when parents and/or grandparents just make a quick positive comment to their child's teacher about how much they appreciate what the teacher is doing for the child. A respectful bond between the educator and student's family leads to a healthy relationship that benefits the child. Heck, it benefits everyone involved.

Just as kids pick up on negative implications towards school, children also soak up the positive influences their family has for education and school. Those students are almost always more eager to learn and achieve at a much higher rate than their peers.

Thanks for the conversation, gage. And good luck. And feel free to PM me if you ever have any questions about how to help your kids w/their education.

I believe what is missing way more in this country than education is " Work Ethic " If folks are going into the trades, starting their own business, or getting more education they will not go anywhere without great work ethic.

...With that said as a prerequisite, I think we should pay teachers more. We pay plumbers, mechanics, factory workers, etc more than we pay teachers...

I'm using your (Vers) quote here but not disagreeing with the rest of that particular post. That post was spot-on.

Some huge differences in here:

Teachers are paid with tax dollars, the other professions you mentioned are not;

I have many tax clients in those listed professions. Teachers are NOT underpaid compared to those other professions;

Teachers get approx three months off per year and numerous "bank" holidays...those other professions do not;

Teachers are in a guaranteed pension plan that is very lucrative, those other professions are not;

Teachers have tremendous healthcare plans, those other professions usually do not.

------------------------------------------------------------

The comments below are not aimed at you (Vers). I'll stay in this post for the following:

Education is extremely important. But we have it all wrong right now. College is too often simply an extension of high school shenanigans without having to live under Mom & Dad's roof. Anyone with some money and/or a loan or grant can go to college. Not just ANY college due to admissions requirements and such...BUT...you can still go somewhere even if you were a horrible student up to that point.

Should "anyone" be able to go to college? Sure. Should anyone other than the student pay for it? No.

How many people now "straddled" with self-inflicted, oppressive student loan debt lived on-campus rather than lived at home? How many used borrowed money to live on or to pay Room & Board? How many decided not to work while in college because the loans would carry them through? College is the cool thing to do. Everyone's doing it.

Better yet...how many kids have these loans and either bombed-out (because they had no business going to college in the first place) or got degrees that landed them jobs that don't require that degree - or any degree for that matter?

Lastly, what do you say to the people who saved money for college so there wouldn't be oppressive student loan debt at the end? Drive old cars, take very inexpensive vacations, live in a modest house, work while going to school, etc so that money can be set-aside for college. THEN be told that your tax dollars will be used to wipe out someone else's bad decisions?

I know very little about China, but in Germany if you are not a good or progressing student, you are diverted to a trade and are very unlikely to get-in or go to college. We should adopt some of that theory because forcing a kid to take classes that will provide them no benefit - other than learning to manage their own disappointment - is fruitless. Instead, we double-down and promise that kid "free" college education/party-time.

My former neighbors are from Finland. They have an interesting system.

You graduate from HS and males have to serve in the Army for a year. In exchange, they get a 4 year college education. If they want a Masters, it's on them to pay for it.

I'm not sure how it works for the girls. They don't live near me anymore so I can't ask.

I actually agree w/most of what you are saying about college. Even if I didn't agree, it's a logical argument unlike most of the posts on this forum.

The summer months are vital to keep up "teaching at home" w/kids. Our two are now 19 and 21. One has her Associates as a Veterinary Assistant and the other is at a 4 year University. When they were in Elem and Middle we had age related math work books and they had to do 20 minutes of math a day. They usually did right after breakfast and had the rest of the day to play. We also all read at least one book a summer (usually read together in the living room at night for 30-45 minutes after dinner before watching tv a movie or them going out to play w/friends). Once school got out we would all go to Powells (our local bookseller and all around amazing place) and spend an hour or so looking and choosing books. The older they got the more books they read and the heavier the text.

Not saying what we did was right and what others do is wrong, but as a teacher I know for a fact that the 8 weeks off of school breaks a routine and w/Math in particular you can literally forget a lot that you learned if you don't keep it up. And, I am pretty sure that everyone agrees reading is good and obviously important.

I agree. Never stop learning. Always embrace learning. Don't waste the summers. My tutoring students have scored extremely high on the initial MAP test of the next school year in relation to their peers because they learn all summer. I was a little worried this past year that they would not meet their Spring prognostications due to their high score in the "Fall." [It's actually Summer, but they don't call it that.] However, they all advanced. There is no doubt in my mind that continued learning is a positive for the child and even for us adults. I still take online classes just to learn new things and keep the mind sharp.

One other thing that I want to mention. The point that not all people are suited for college or need to go to college has been mentioned a few times. I agree w/that.

However, what does one have to lose by learning while in school? What does one have to lose by developing a strong work ethic? Will good math skills help you in the trades? Is learning to be a critical reader helpful in every day life? Having a good education and strong work ethic is never a bad thing, no matter what you choose as your profession.

I too totally agree that 4 year university isn't a path for all. Community College as well as getting an associates or trade school, police academy etc. is all "further education" beyond HS. As I said above, we have one who went and got her Associates and another who is in a 4-yr public/state uni.

I also think we need to get away from thinking Vocational school is for kids who don't do well in traditional school setting. The Vocational (that term has been replaced now to Career & Technical) plays a great part in high school and even middle (if the MS offers it) and gives students more opportunities. If it is CTE endorsed they can get certification in the course and often college credits. But, for some it also offers a path into a specific trade, Junior/Comm College, direct employment as an apprentice or a certification course such as an Associates. Not everybody is the same...these are all great options for further education paths other than the usual middle/upper class mantra of "you have" to go to a 4-year college/university.

And this is why i still come here and read ...

THANKS SO MUCH to U and to the others contributing to this convo ...

I’m in NY with my 11 and 14 year old nephews today and there about to start there 30 minutes of reading before they do there 30 minutes of chores ... as soon as i talk to their parents cause of what u just said i’m Sure math will be added to their daily list of summer activities ...

HOW EASY is that and HOW DID WE NOT THINK OF THAT BEFORE ... so dissapointed in myself right now ... DUMB ASS!!! ...

Any other common sense things i’ve missed .... save the jokes please ... *L* ..

Learning is easy, as age advances, it's recall that's more difficult.

We were given a recommendation on grade/curriculum related Math workbooks, which we bought each summer up until 8th grade. I'm sure you can find some decent ones with good reviews on Amazon. Was it popular? No. But, we said 20 min a day...easy enough between eating breakfast and moving on with their day. Once the initial battle was over, they got used to it and would get their work book, sit in the kitchen and get on with it (sometimes while eating their bowl of cereal).

Math is not my strong point and now I wish I had done better at it in school. But, I didn't have good math teachers and they made it super dull. To be honest, if it wasn't for my girlfriend in high school I would have failed. That was the hardest 'C' grade to achieve, ever.

I think big picture many older Americans have lost sight of the importance of furthering education. Many spent much of their life in a manufacturing economy. And I think they have been sidetracked by the focus being placed on things like trade wars. More of what they see in the moment rather than taking a long look at the future. Seeing things as the future unfolds.

Advanced robotics and autonomous transport, artificial intelligence and machine learning, advanced materials, biotechnology and genomics will be in the forefront and the nations who have best educated their population will be the leaders of the world tomorrow. Sometimes I think the population as a whole loses sight of what is in front of us and as of now, we are behind moving into the future.

I believe if people actually grasped the direction the world is headed and what the education of our people moving forward means in regards to the future and security of our country, they would become more focused on how to solve the higher education crisis in America.

I agree that a strong work ethic can be a virtue and desirable quality in individual workers. However I think that working conditions, compensation, and opportunity to advance directly affect one's work ethic.

Unlike yesteryear when one adult, single or married, could support a household with a 40 hour job, today's economy and jobs are different. You can't just graduate high school and go get a good job at the plant ot mill because those jobs either don't exist or pay very little... You can't expect a fair wage that will allow you to live a dignified and prosperous lifestyle because human work hours have been so devalued... You can't expect to work 30 years and retire from a job when retraining, jobe change, or career change every 2-5 years has become the norm... There are many other factors but you see where I'm going.

Education is the one value employers can use to justify investing in and providing better conditions, pay, etc. to employees upfront or at entry level. This is a driving factor in the need for affordable education. A highly educated general population and workforce will only strengthen our country and make all our lives better.

The devaluing of education by talking up trade jobs is a false equivalent because apprenticing in a trade is a form of education. You are not going to have your average high school grad start day one as a fully qualified electrician, plumber, welder, machinist, etc. The simple truth is they must be trained (educated) and that cost money too. Even a trade school grad, although they 'might' have a slight advantage of general knowledge and limited hands on experience, is still going to require training. When basic education is subpar even training for the trades becomes exponentially more costly.

Both our subpar public education and the high cost of higher education are being manufactured by greed. Tax payers resist investing in our public schools because their very finite slice of the pie is under constant attack from all angles. Corporate employers, private schools, and colleges are all profit driven.

Poor education, illiteracy, and ignorance are a scourge on society and the economy. We still have a public education system geared toward turing out worker drones to work mundane repetitive jobs for 30+ years... the skills acquired from the three R's of basic education are lacking in a large percentage of the workforce, not to mention the basic STEAM education foundation needed to function well and succeed in today's and tomorrow's high tech economies. all of this makes it hard to support any alternative view or dialogue that devalues a quality education system.

That's exactly it PDX.. I wouldn't call a degree "worthless".. but one has to weigh the cost of obtaining the degree with the job prospects/future earning potential of that degree.

Let me add another thing that I believe is driving the cost of college up and it is in keeping with the theme of "competition"...

North Carolina is not a real big state geographically.. we have 100 counties and you can drive end to end in about 6 hours... between public and private colleges, we have almost 80 that offer a degree in education.. that's 80 sets of faculty and staff, not necessarily 80 buildings but some part of that, etc... The 4 biggest schools put out 150-200 bachelor degrees per year in education each but the average among the others is down around 35-40 degrees per year...

How can that be cost effective? Why do all colleges think they have to be all things to all people? I understand that private schools can do whatever they want but why do we need more than about 10 public colleges with a bachelors in education program? Achieve some economy of scale where 10 schools around the state are putting out 250 degrees a year instead of 50 schools putting out 50 degrees per year...

I appreciate applying some vertical integration to the problem, but one thing I always thought was advantageous to people would be if they could go to a nearby school and not need to pay for room/board at the university. My brother went to school 10 minutes from my parents place, in North Carolina to boot! It was much cheaper for him to go there than if he went to Chapel Hill like my sister, who is paying back student loans for tuition _and_ room and board.

I just fail to see where vertically integrating the schools provides any value, and many cases where there are disadvantages. One of the largest to me is that I'd have to move to get an education unless I was lucky enough to live nearby the school that has my degree. And part of the education reform process is removing "luck" from the equation. Luck from wealthy parents. Luck from living in states with better tuition plans for in state, etc.

We aren't saving much money just to house everyone in one campus. The cost of business space is always dwarfed by the HR cost of paying employees when you have high skill workers. Professors by definition are high school positions. They may not make amazing money compared to doctors and lawyers, but they can command near or more than $100k/yr. Heck you may increase the PSF a fair bit once the larger schools know they need to grow massively to consolidate, so you've created a regional asset bubble where people inflate property values near these schools in order to get expanded upon. We've seen that quite a bit in Silicon Valley.

The people it would really hurt would be those in rural/low population areas, since they'd need to spend more money to live temporarily. We've normalized this behavior but I really believe room and board is part of the problem when assessing post-secondary education costs.

I don't know if this is the same in NC or not, but in California they have a tier system: UC schools (Berkeley, UCLA, Santa Barbara, Santa Cruz, Davis, San Diego etc.) are at the top of the tier and they are very competitive thus, have a low admission percentage. CSU (Cal State Univ) is below that top tier of institutions and they comprise schools like Humboldt, Chico, San Jose, Long Beach etc. Cal State offers opportunities for students who don't want to go to a huge mega university or maybe didn't get into UC school for one reason or another, or who can't afford it and don't want massive debt (Cal State are significantly cheaper). It fills a vital need. However, these are just UC and Cal State options...this alone is over 30 Universities. Add to it the Privates and all the other Colleges/Universities up and down the state and that is a decent amount of competition. Mind you, California is also the most populated state in the country and it is also a magnet for both US and international students, so perhaps that number of schools are needed. Nevertheless, it's fair to see that even if the school is non-profit....Education is BIG BUSINESS.

Hey Diam, PDX mentioned some books you could purchase. That is a good idea because they are more tied in to the curriculum than you are.

However, I would suggest giving your nephews diagnostic tests prior to purchasing the books. It would be beneficial to know their level before trying to give them new material.

I can also give you some free websites that are helpful. I use them in my tutoring business. I could even take you to a place where they have good educational books. I purchased several for tutoring. And if you are ever interested in having your nephews tutored, I would charge you at my lowest rate. We might even be able to work out a discount because there are three of the little men. Up to you.

Thanks for the offer ... there’s only 2 left ... the 18 year old’s in Cali working construction and the 17 year old graduated early went to Paris Island and is now heading to the Citadel (he’s the one that got burned 2 years ago ...

Ones 14 and ones 11 ...

Please send me the links to the math sites ... i gotta talk to their parents first ... prolly gonna have to wait til next summer for that ... we’ll see how it works out .. i may PM U after i see what ma and dad say to see what u would suggest ...

Right now i’m Just looking to keep them “fresh” during the summer ...

Please send me th links to the sites ...

Thanks again ...

Done. Check your PM box.

Can’t fix this. A useless wall is valued more than our children.