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Where is this Bellichek garbage is coming from? I've not watched your video or made any reference to him, but if you want to create a straw man position that has nothing to do with the comments made this morning, go for it.

Diam said I claimed Higgins was better than Landry based on posts I posted with statistical comparisions. I said that was false and provided what I said. In fact, I mentioned efficiency many times re: Higgins these past few months. Maybe memory loss is an issue for some too.

But to hone in on your comment that claimed Landry was a good player because he peers voted him at 52. I'd think by that same logic you should be concerned his peers voting him at 84. I mean if you want to give credence to the 52 number, you need to do the same for the 84. To me, they're both worthless and mean nothing. To you, obviously not.

You call others ignorant, but yet you cannot make the simple correlation about how a team will roll coverages towards one receiver and how that might affect one's "efficiency." You don't seem to realize that when Bill "Freaking" Belichick talks about concentrating on stopping a certain guy, than that guy is probably better than a guy who draws no extra attention.

Stop the games. You don't have a clue about the game, thus you have no right to say things like Diam is ignorant. He knows way more about football than you do.

The problem is you inherently think all statisitics are isolated and don't think they take coverages, comparison to the same teams, players matchups, film grading/scoring by multiple people, etc., etc., etc into account. There are for more advanced metrics beyond the singular one's mentioned earlier (but are used collectively for a more broader interpretation) that are not favorable to Landry and take many issues, some of which you mentioned, into account.

Landry's sample size is there for all to see, both in Miami and his first year in Cleveland. He is a good WR, just not a great one.

The funny thing is, just three stand alone stats re: Higgins led someone like Diam to auto-equate a poster's meaning that player A is better than player B. By me simply stating that is false, is taking other factors into account. Many of the factors you mentioned. Funny how that is overlooked. I think that is why it is fair to say he was being ignorant to the stats I presented as it relates to my take on what that meant.

What's true it true. Sorry.

The problem is that you won't even acknowledge what people like Bill Belichick say and completely lean on stats that suit your argument while ignoring other stats.

You can have the last word, but I'm done for now.

I guess I will have the last word. This is another straw man postion as it has NOTHING to do with the discussion this morning....this is two for you today!

BB is a great coach and his words carry weight. Why wouldn't they? But it is certainly not the "Be all, end all". No one factor is.

That's what it boils down to. Coverage means nothing. The fact opposing D's focused on Landry means nothing.

Only stats. I mean we're still talking about baseball here, right?

I am not looking to get in the discussion, but other teams receivers face the same thing that Landry did. I am sure teams rolled coverage towards OBJ and left Sterling Shepherd more or less matched up with one defender, so it isn't like Jarvis was the only guy who faced this.

Just my 2¢

(1) No one is saying coverage (or any other on field factor) means nothing. You clearly aren't paying attention.

(2) I love it when people reference stats as if it's only a baseball thing. Or that it is applicable to any other sport BUT football. That's smart.

(3) You're beer-holding skills are phenonmenal!

Only I don't drink. Well, I do have two beers whenever I meet up with GM.

Let's just say stats alone don't carry near the weight in football as they do in baseball.

No kidding. It's because baseball has at been at it longer. Basketball too. Football and its incestious ways of churning out the same people and same ideas has left football is this 'trust the gut' bubble. Fortunately for the sport, that bubble has popped and stats/anayltics has taken the NFL by storm as it is increasingly influencing the sport each and every year. Just look at the teams that are employing departments across the NFL. It wonderful to behold.

Deny it all you want, Pit....it's here and you're just going to have to suck it up and take it!

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2018/12/19/18148153/nfl-analytics-revolution (Sorry, your boy Warren Sharp didn't write this piece but he is quoted in it)

I think the mindset is hilarious on that in life, business, and sports (minus one), analytics is used heavily to drive success, predictive measures, and future decision-making. But, somehow, football is EXPEMPT from all of that.

It's fascinating and stupid all at the same time.

Not at all. Football has people playing in units. Each persons job within that unit is somewhat different. An offense will double and sometimes triple team certain defenders while leaving other defenders easier access to the QB.

From a stat count, on paper, the guy who got to the QB gets the sack but the reason for that sack was because a better player was being double or triple teamed.

Then let's look at the other side of that. If a G has to slide over and help the C block a top rated defensive player, and the player in front of that G gets the sack, the G will be charged with that sack. The stats don't tell you that the G had to help the C.

A WR is supposed to break one way but breaks the other way. It's a timing throw where the QB throws the ball before the WR reaches the area. The QB gets charged for the incompletion, not the WR.

I could go on but it's for most people to understand the concept.

So yeah, football stats don't tell close to the actual story in many cases.

I didn't say there's no place for analytics in football. It's just nothing close to something you can hang your hat on like in other sports.

For people to believe they do, I find fascinating and stupid all at the same time.

This pretty much sums it up re: how you view analytics and it's the incorrect view. You are looking at the transaction of a sack only and that it somehow equates to how analytics judges a person, a play, or a performance. It is far more sophisticated than that. You are stuck with the idea that baseball analytics and football analytics are synonymous with one another. You have the wrong mindset.

As a simple primer and introduction go read up on how PFF, an analytics site, grades players. You be surprised how much of it can sometimes have little to do with a player getting, or giving up, a sack.

Again, you can't slow it down, Pit. It has arrived and it will only get more ramped up and sophisticated. Learn about it more and don't be like Diam.

The more sophisticated it gets the better it will actually apply. But let's face it, stats are used like they're gospel and they're not.

No, they are not. They are just now getting more and more credit for being used appropriately. Finally.

It's just the old, antiquated thinking trying to push back by saying "They are used like gospel'.

You must have missed this part in your zest for arguing.



But carry on........

j/c:

I am just happy that our Analytics Department thought that Landry was worth that contract.

Well we can add another reciever to the OVERPAID LIST ... Mr. Thomas is now the highest paid WR in the NFL and he’s 100% not a top 5 WR in the league ... prolly around 10 give or take ... i sure hope the Saints can handle this egregious overpayment of Mr. Thomas ... we won’t even mention the fact he’s the highest paid non QB offensive player in the NFL and he can’t even sniff that spot in reality ... hell he’s not even the best-non QB on his team ... *L* ...

This is just another egregious overpay .... or maybe, just maybe its simply how the MARKET WORKS ... ...

MICHAEL THOMAS
WR, NEW ORLEANS SAINTS

Saints signed WR Michael Thomas to a five-year, $100 million extension through 2024.

The deal contains $61 million guaranteed and makes Thomas the league's highest-paid wideout at $20 million per year in new money. He's actually the highest-paid non-quarterback offensive player in NFL history right now, a number that will surely soon be surpassed by whoever is next in line, whether it's Julio Jones or whomever. Through three seasons, Thomas has averaged 107 catches for 1,262 yards and eight touchdowns as the former No. 47 overall pick of the 2016 draft. He turned 26 in March.

SOURCE: Adam Schefter on Twitter
Jul 31, 2019, 8:41 AM ET

Congrats sir ... i’m sure the aints are pleased with the egregious overpay ...

Saints knew they needed him while Brees is in the twilight ... not saying they overpaid, but I figured Thomas would get a deal done

j/c:

"One of these things is not like the others...."

Sammy Watkins?

Keep guessing!

I concede....maybe there are two.

...

And this is exactly why STATS ARE FOR LOSERS ....

U just went and USED AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT PAY METRIC to prove your point ... its a perfect example of moving the goal post ....

CHANGE CRITERIA to fit your argument ... CLASSY ...

I just wonder how many stats u had to go through until u found just the right one ... *L* ...

You aren't making any sense.

I've used alot of different pay descriptions all surrounding Landry's contract....guaranteed $, overall $, avg. salary, etc. I'm not sure how this is any different since the majority of those two years (if not all) will be allocated towards guaranteed dollars, which I've referenced several times before.

Good job outta you.

Thanks .....

Do better.

Ok mouth ...

How many times u use cash flow before .... ya, thats what i thought ...

Like i said .... u introduced a new metric ... i done just fine .... u keep spinning away ...

I’m out ... take your last shot ..

LETS GOOOOOOOoooooooo

I was thinking Green.

Cash flow is not a new "metric" when talking contracts, specifically when referencing guaranteed money/ dollars handed out early on. It is not my problem if you don't get that.

But yeah, I moved the goal posts.

I think to some degree we agree about WR's. Where we disagree is that there are some WR's in the elite status that I do think earn their salary.

But in the grand scheme of things I look at Baker from last season. He doesn't seem to focus on the top receiver and instead looks for the open man and spreads the ball around a lot.

As such, by the time he reaches his second contract, if his progress remains steady, I think we'll be just fine without major studs at the WR position. That ability to spread the ball around to everyone makes it much easier to transition to average, to above average WR's.

I agree w/part of that and disagree w/the other part.

I disagree that he looks for the open man. There were receivers running wide open that he did not throw to and instead forced the ball deeper into coverage. I remember seeing Landry throwing his hands up in disgust during one game because he was open time after time on shallow crossing routes and Baker forced the ball into coverage deeper down the field. I think this is why Baker's completion percentage and Interception percentage are so bad.

I do agree w/you that he doesn't focus on one or two receivers and that he spreads the ball around. He did a very good job of targeting multiple targets each game. I like that because no one will take a play off.

You and I have mentioned this before. We have both seen it, but, you know, #fakenews.

I saw some of that as well...I did not see at as being as egregious as you did...but I saw it.

I also have read this summer that he is working on that exact issue. So...it seems that it's real and an area for improvement...while also not being a problem.

I didn't mean to imply that it was a huge problem. I was just disagreeing w/Pit on that part of his post.

Glad to hear he is working on it. That will help completion percentage and Interception percentage. I think this would be a pretty easy "fix."

Definitely not a big problem, and an expectable one from a rookie gunslinger style QB.

How much of that do u think is attributed to Bake learning the nfl game and how to read nfl d’s ... huh ... not my best question as that ones hard to quantify when your not in bakes head ... *L* ... guess i should re-phrase ...

I wonder how much of that was Bake’s lack of experience at this level in reading D’s and just the natural learning curve of rookie qb’s ...

I wonder what Bake’s pass distribution was target wise ... not questioning u on him spreading it around ... i agree he does a nice job of that ... just curious as to what the distribution was as far as targets go ... will be interesting to see how that compares to this year ...

Landry had 81 receptions with 149 targets

Njoku had 56 receptions with 88 targets

Callaway had 43 receptions with 79 targets

Higgins had 39 receptions with 53 targets.

Duke had 47 receptions with 62 targets.

They and those with lesser targets are listed here....

https://www.espn.com/nfl/team/stats/_/name/cle

My point was that Baker wasn't focused in one WR. He seemed to spread the ball around to different targets.

One thing I wanted to mention about player salaries:

I heard a talking head opine that the next CBA will include a higher percentage for the players ..... maybe much higher ...... in exchange for the extra 2 regular season games. The highest contracts under a new CBA could go way up ...... and some "huge" deals right now could seem reasonable after a new CBA. They were talking about Michael Thomas's contract, specifically, but it could be any player's contract.