Email this Page IM this Story Bookmark this Story Add to your Del.icio.us account Digg this Story ERIE, Pa. - An Erie cancer researcher has found a way to burn salt water, a novel invention that is being touted by one chemist as the "most remarkable" water science discovery in a century.
John Kanzius happened upon the discovery accidentally when he tried to desalinate seawater with a radio-frequency generator he developed to treat cancer. He discovered that as long as the salt water was exposed to the radio frequencies, it would burn.
The discovery has scientists excited by the prospect of using salt water, the most abundant resource on earth, as a fuel.
Rustum Roy, a Penn State University chemist, has held demonstrations at his State College lab to confirm his own observations.
The radio frequencies act to weaken the bonds between the elements that make up salt water, releasing the hydrogen, Roy said. Once ignited, the hydrogen will burn as long as it is exposed to the frequencies, he said.
The discovery is "the most remarkable in water science in 100 years," Roy said.
"This is the most abundant element in the world. It is everywhere," Roy said. "Seeing it burn gives me the chills."
Roy will meet this week with officials from the Department of Energy and the Department of Defense to try to obtain research funding.
The scientists want to find out whether the energy output from the burning hydrogen — which reached a heat of more than 3,000 degrees Fahrenheit — would be enough to power a car or other heavy machinery.
"We will get our ideas together and check this out and see where it leads," Roy said. "The potential is huge."
Yeah, I saw a youtube video about this.....there's potential, no doubt, however, if it does come to fruition, you can bet your last dollar that some environmentalist somewhere will be complaining and suing because "it might hurt the sea life", or something like that.
It is interesting though. And what strikes me as odd, but way too common is that the guy was looking for something else and he came upon this. Isn't that how most "inventions" come to be?
Yeah, environmentalist???? Far from it actually and yes, I do take that as an insult.
Of course if you don't think you need water to live, then I think you need a quick wake up call. You know, it's not like the oceans effect our weather or anything like that. By the way, care to enlighten me as to what a desalination plant is? Hmm, looks like salt water can be turned into drinking water....in fact there are many of these plants.
We are already talking about drying up our oil resources so what makes you really think that we wouldn't do the same to our water resources. No matter how hard we try, we can't just make water appear. I'd really like to see you live past a week without any water.
This was posted about a month ago. I mentioned that the press is getting into a big frenzy, without asking the real questions. The biggest one being how much energy is consumed to "burn" the water in the first place?
Quote: Yeah, environmentalist???? Far from it actually and yes, I do take that as an insult.
Of course if you don't think you need water to live, then I think you need a quick wake up call. You know, it's not like the oceans effect our weather or anything like that. By the way, care to enlighten me as to what a desalination plant is? Hmm, looks like salt water can be turned into drinking water....in fact there are many of these plants.
We are already talking about drying up our oil resources so what makes you really think that we wouldn't do the same to our water resources. No matter how hard we try, we can't just make water appear. I'd really like to see you live past a week without any water.
Ya know, I probably shouldn't even get into this, but.......
First of all, I know we need water to survive. Only an idiot would not know that. Secondly, I know that we also need some type of fuel in order to survive (be that oil, coal, water, or whatever). Without some sort of fuel to power plants to make electricity, without some sort of power for vehicles, without some sort of power to provide heat, this world would cease to exist.
Now, we can talk about the billions of gallons of oil still in the ground that we will drill and burn. But when we talk about that, inevitably, someone says "don't do it, you're killing the earth", or something along those lines.
We are now hearing about global warming (hell, I won't even go into this discussion), and how ti will raise sea levels some 20 ft. Now, I'm no math genius, but if you are, please do the math. How many gallons of water would it take to raise the oceans 20 ft? Trust me, it's more than you can imagine. It takes about 10,000 gallons of water to raise my pond a couple of inches.
Next, we need to know that water, while abundant now, will never be anything BUT abundant. See, the earth was "born" (one way or another) with "X" amount of water. Some of it is in the form of water, some is ice, some is in the plants and animals, and some is in the atmosphere.
Water does not "disappear". While it may disappear to your eyes, it re appears somewhere else.. Ever flush a toilet? You think that water is gone? No, it is re-used, over, and over, and over, and over. Ever seen a rainstorm that left puddles? Ever see those puddles disappear after a day or so? Know where the water went? Some penetrated the ground, into the underground rivers that provide much of this country, and others as well, with water, but much of it evaporated into the air. Know what it does then? It follows the winds, and when the air is too full of water, it falls out of the sky as rain, thereby replenishing everything.
See, water is NOT an asset that is limited. It us unlimited. The water on this planet doesn't go anywhere......it stays here, one way or another. It is very UNlike oil. There is a certain amount of oil, and when we use a gallon, it is gone. With water, if you use a gallon, it re-appears. Maybe not in your yard, but it re-appears somewhere on earth.
Ever sit under a tree for a full day? Ever drink anything, and then urinate? Ever boil water in your house, with the windows closed?
See, water doesn't "go away" to a different planet, it doesn't disappear (to the eye it might, but it never leaves) If we can harness water to power our way of life, we'll be set forever, because the by product of water is water. We can't run out. Whatever is used will come back. It's really pretty simple.
Now, as for your "...go without water for a week...." example, that was lame.
Have you ever watered a garden, or a field? See, much of the moisture falls into the ground, it is either absorbed into the ground, or it evaporates into the air, to fall on someone elses garden, or field. What isn't absorbed or evaporated goes into the plants/crops. When those are eaten, bingo, the moisture they had is recycled through the human body, and it comes out, one way or another. By urine, by breathing, by sweating......however, whatever, the water comes back into the environment.
If we can find a way to "burn" water as a fuel, we're set. Why? Because the end result will be we burn a gallon of water in order to move a car, and that gallon of water gets displaced, into the atmoshphere, and it will come back down again. Sorry, we can't run out of water, cause it has no where to go. It will come back, maybe not on your property, or mine, but it will come back.
Quote: Yeah, environmentalist???? Far from it actually and yes, I do take that as an insult.
If you are insulted by your not knowing facts, I can't help that. Let's just assume you are like many peope I know. Let's see, we shouldn't use oil, cause that's bad. We can't use coal, cause that's bad. We shouldn't cut trees, cause that's bad. And yet these people that feel that way feel it is a God given right to flick a switch and have light, and they feel that it is a God given right to be able to drive somewhere,whenever they feel like it.
Quote:
Of course if you don't think you need water to live, then I think you need a quick wake up call. You know, it's not like the oceans effect our weather or anything like that. By the way, care to enlighten me as to what a desalination plant is? Hmm, looks like salt water can be turned into drinking water....in fact there are many of these plants.
Desalintion plants? Yeah, they take water that is un usable and turn it into water that IS usable. And when that water is used, it is returned to the system. Care to explain to me how that is a bad thing?
Quote:
We are already talking about drying up our oil resources so what makes you really think that we wouldn't do the same to our water resources. No matter how hard we try, we can't just make water appear. I'd really like to see you live past a week without any water.
Sorry, but water does not disappear like oil does. Nice try at a comparison, but it doesn't wash. Oil - there is a limited amount. When you use a gallon, there is exactly 1 gallon less on this earth. See, the by product of used oil is not "re-usable oil", it is gone. The by product of used water is..........................ding ding ding, water.
If I'm not mistaken, you are in graduate school. I don't know what you are in school for, but perhaps you might be better off studying your field of study as opposes to making ignorant statements about the use of water.
But, what do I know? I'm just a guy that pays taxes through the nose so that people like you can go to school (seems to me, and maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me I remember you getting some sort of scholarship or something so you could go to school for free, or near free - and if that's the case, you have to remember, it's people like me that pay for it - not that I'M paying for it, but it's people like me.
Yeah, water is so easily replaced. Oh wait, why are there such heavy water usage laws again? If it is so easily replaced, then it shouldn't matter according to your standards how often you have to water your lawn.
Or maybe you should take a trip to somewhere like the Hoover Dam. Take a look around. You see that weird white border on the rocks....thats where water USED to be. If water was so easily replenished, then there wouldn't be extreme water shortages across the country. In the summer in Florida, I had to watch my grass die because I'd get arrested if I watered my lawn anytime other than Monday and Wednesday at 6 am until something like 8 or tried washing my car without a shutoff valve on the end of the hose.
Obviously we don't have to worry about it in our lifetime and possibly even our kids....but anything past that would be questionable if we start abusing it.
Sorry Arch, but there really is, only a certain amount of water---it doesn't just regenerate.
But anyways, this is a quite ridiculous idea. The energy it takes to separate the Hydrogen from the Oxygen is going to be greater than the energy actually gained from the Hydrogens combustion. Hence, it's absolutely ludicrously inefficient---and nothing more than a pipe-dream.
To me, there is only one option that we would be better served looking into for our cars.
This is electricity.....and what do you know, that is what is being explored. Electricity is more of a renewable resource due to the fact that there are MANY different ways of generating it. Key in point, my previous statement of the Hoover Dam. We can generate electricity by many means such as the rush of water or wind.
It's rather funny that many people remember Thomas Edison as the inventor of electricity and don't even know who Nikola Tesla is. Long story short, Edison invented DC currents and Tesla invented the AC currents. After a long battle, it's pretty obvious which one won the battle. Well there is a new technology out that I'd personally rank right up there with the others.
This is essentially called Sine Wave Dimming and is the wave of the future....today. I bet you didn't know that it is possible to dim Neon Lights or Flourescent Light Bulbs. They are quickly catching on overseas and are starting to take off here as well. It is so clean in fact that your bulbs won't "sing" anymore. That buzz from those fixtures is completely gone due to how the electricity current is being sent. Also sinewave's completely cut out the need for transformers. Look at a car and you will see that the electrical system is the key to keeping it running. In other words, less transformers means a cleaner signal and less of a chance of anything going wrong. This technology has been around for awhile now...but it is just now starting to take off.
Quote: But, what do I know? I'm just a guy that pays taxes through the nose so that people like you can go to school (seems to me, and maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me I remember you getting some sort of scholarship or something so you could go to school for free, or near free - and if that's the case, you have to remember, it's people like me that pay for it - not that I'M paying for it, but it's people like me.
Hmmm, you mean people like me too? Just because I go to school doesn't mean I am exempt from taxes you know (although I must say I am enjoying the no sales tax in the state of Montana). And actually, thank you very much but my job does entail the use of water at times and thus I do have to know all about the details and dangers that it presents to power.
How much energy is used in order to create the radio waves that allow this process to happen in comparison to the amount of energy we get from burning it??????
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
But anyways, this is a quite ridiculous idea. The energy it takes to separate the Hydrogen from the Oxygen is going to be greater than the energy actually gained from the Hydrogens combustion. Hence, it's absolutely ludicrously inefficient---and nothing more than a pipe-dream.
You do not KNOW that, and even if that is true now, it does not mean they can't find more efficient methods of doing so...
Quote: Sorry Arch, but there really is, only a certain amount of water---it doesn't just regenerate.
But anyways, this is a quite ridiculous idea. The energy it takes to separate the Hydrogen from the Oxygen is going to be greater than the energy actually gained from the Hydrogens combustion. Hence, it's absolutely ludicrously inefficient---and nothing more than a pipe-dream.
Arch is 100% correct that it does regenerate. The burning of hydrogen emits steam, don't have the time to provide a link to the proof right now. I'll come back and do that this evening, or perhaps someone else can do a quick search on the WWW and help me out.
About point number two. In the last 100 years of history more "pipe dreams" have become reality than any other time in history. Why do you think that will not continue?
Quote: Yeah, water is so easily replaced. Oh wait, why are there such heavy water usage laws again? If it is so easily replaced, then it shouldn't matter according to your standards how often you have to water your lawn.
If you understood where you local water comes from you would know why these laws are enacted.
I live 1/4 mile from the Gulf of Mexico, and about 100 miles from the largest man made lake in the US. yet we have water restrictions every winter. Why? Because our water source is an aquifer underground, which during the winter when we don't get regular rains, gets used up, and therefore we have a finite source of water currently.
There's lots of water around us, but the easiest fresh water source is that aquifer, maybe if they invest in desalinization it won't be an issue right now, or if they goto a reclaimed water system like Cape Coral, FL has, that uses waste water, lightly cleans it, then sends it back down a secondary waterline for use on lawns and such, not drinking.
It's not that we are limited on water in the world, but limited in where we currently get our water from, due to cost, and technology.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
John Kanzius (the scientist) has cancer and he was initially doing the research for just himself, however he has found other ways to utilize his machine.
You guys are arguing about some ... uh, "bad points" here.
First of all, FRESH water is a limited commodity. That's why there are laws and such to protect it's use and lakes and resevoirs dry up, and yadayadayada. What we are talking about here is SALT water. This guy is vibrating the salt within the water to such a high frequency, that the water breaks down into oxygen and hydrogen ... which is flammable. And most good chemists will tell you that adding fire (O2) to Hydrogen gives you H2O again. (Just in vapor form) So the water never disappears in this instance, and we are collecting it from the most abundant source on the planet, the source that all water goes back to eventually anyway. This is hardly an issue of wasting water.
The biggest issue is what Tyler, Pete and I have all said ... If you're burning through more energy than what you're getting in return, then it's not a very efficient means of power generation. The biggest technological advance here is that this could be a simpler means of desalinating water. Like I said before, burning H2 gives you pure H20 (without the salt) ... and this could be a great way of converting salty ocean water into that limited resource of fresh water.
Quote: This is electricity.....and what do you know, that is what is being explored. Electricity is more of a renewable resource due to the fact that there are MANY different ways of generating it. Key in point, my previous statement of the Hoover Dam. We can generate electricity by many means such as the rush of water or wind.
There are many ways of generating, but there aren't many ways of generating it efficiently. Solar power is nice, but it takes a good amount of space and an expensive amount of equipment to get very little power in return. (plus you need bright sunny days all the time). Wind power is pretty much the same, large space, high cost, low output. Water power is nice, but you only have so many rivers and lakes that have to potential to be dammed and generate electricity. There just isn't enough space or money to sate the world's electrical needs through renewable generating resources.
Desal is already moving foreward in leaps and bounds but as to whether this could make it easier ?? Now desal is accomplished by moving water thorough R.O. membranes ( an oversimplification ) and it is an emerging feild that the U.S. needs to get a better grasp of especially in the Western/Southwestern part of this country. The middle east and Australia are using alot of desal plants and also alot of grey water usage goes on in these countries for nonpotable water uses .
I hear Isreal is one of the world's best in desal techniques. Definitely something the US should be looking into. The Colorado River would probably flow again if they didn't have to divert so much of it over to Los Angeles which is sitting on a huge salt water source.
I wasn't arguing the topic here, as this thread was run about 2 months ago and we discussed the pro's and con's of this technology then, and questioned it's efficiency.
I was pointing out the flaws in Con-Artists thinking about water conservation.
Believe it or not Libya is on the cutting edge of desal. So much so that other countries in the region have been getting help from their engineers. The U.S. needs to get on the stick because you are right that this is the only way to take the burden off of rivers like the Colorado and that burden is going to get bigger as the years go on. San Antonio and it's Mexican sister city are in massive trouble due to the aquafer supplying them with water will be dry in 10 years.
The next question I would have is what salinity does the water have to be in order to produce good results????? I would figure the more salt the more heat..and therefore quicker results....Then lastly...after all the The fuel is spent...what kind of salt/mineral reisude is left???? That right there would be an issue for the use of the fuel for locomotion unless you are going to make cartridges that can be cleansed for each ignition(whether it is a short last or a slow burn.).....
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
I agree ... there are plenty of problems that would make this difficult to be an efficient means of powering a car. I love how the media get so easily awed by this though. You say "alternative energy" ... power a quarter horse-power engine with heat from the thing, and suddenly we're driving water powered cars in the next 5 years.
I wonder if the media has ever seen a digital clock powered by a potato before?
A Potato????? WOW...a new Renewable Power Source!!!!!!!!!!!!! We're gonna be RICH!!!!!!!!
Hey...here is another renewable power source...its called the 1000 man treadmill.....You see we get all these treadmill jumkies in one place at the same time and BAM!!!!! free energy
Actually that may not be a half bad idea...Open a gym with non powered treadmills and hook up generators to the treadmills and nautilas equipment....BAM!!!!!!! free energy...powered by guilt ridden bon bon eaters
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
Solve the obesity and energy problems, everyone has a stationary bike in their house, that is hooked to a generator and the power grid, and every family member over 8 years old is required to ride for 1 hr a day.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
Once again, if we keep developing Sine Wave technology, we will end up with a cleaner, more efficient power source. The more efficient the power, the less resources are needed to develop it.
But anyways, this is a quite ridiculous idea. The energy it takes to separate the Hydrogen from the Oxygen is going to be greater than the energy actually gained from the Hydrogens combustion. Hence, it's absolutely ludicrously inefficient---and nothing more than a pipe-dream.
You do not KNOW that, and even if that is true now, it does not mean they can't find more efficient methods of doing so...
John Kanzius, a former broadcast executive from Erie, Pennsylvania, attracted media attention in 2007 with claims of burning salt water by means of a radio frequency generator that releases the oxygen and hydrogen from salt water and creates an intense flame.[1] Kanzius has admitted that early versions of his machine require more energy than it releases, but implies that he believes this can be overcome. The details of the process are still unreleased while Kanzius applies for a patent.[1] He states that the discovery was made accidentally while he was researching the use of radio waves for the treatment of cancer.[2]
According to newspaper reports, the effect has been successfully reproduced by Rustum Roy, a chemist at Pennsylvania State University[3]. According to Roy, "The salt water isn't burning per se, despite appearances. The radio frequencies act to weaken the bonds between the elements that make up salt water, releasing the hydrogen. Once ignited, the hydrogen will burn as long as it is exposed to the frequencies."
Thermodynamics tells us you really can't find a more efficient method to this process. Burning Hydrogen in an oxygen environment creates water, while the radio frequency method takes water and creates hydrogen and oxygen. You have the same products as you do reactants, thus you cannot get a positive amount of energy out of the process.
The only way around this would, I assume, be that the salt in the water causes the hydrogen oxygen bond to be weaker than it is without salt, allowing the energy given off by the bond recreation to be greater than the energy taken to break the bond. Science has never detected that, and would, if the difference in bond energies was anything significant. Given that you're dealing with the effect of bond distance on a fairly strong H-O bond by an overall neutral, and itself strong Na-Cl or other salt bond. You're never going to see a huge energy difference in the H-O bond strength, because a neutral Na-Cl simply does not have the electrical potential to create much of a difference.
In the end, this could be a revolution for the desalination industry (which is nowhere near a small deal given the number of people in this world that go without clean water everyday) but you should be safe betting your house on the fact that this will never be used for energy production.
Quote: This was posted about a month ago. I mentioned that the press is getting into a big frenzy, without asking the real questions. The biggest one being how much energy is consumed to "burn" the water in the first place?
My horses theory may again be rearing its head here.
Strangly enough the biggest issue within the scientific community is the inability to account for potential technological advances to render current "issues" moot.
I'm 33. So far in my life I've seen the following headlines widely accepted:
1. Oil reserves gone before the turn of the century (1978 or so?)
As we all know we still have oil. It's because of new techniques and technologies to find and access more oil. We also have reserves that we have not tapped due to various pressures such as Alaska. To go one further how much oil is trapped under the vast expanse of ocean beds? We don't know that yet but it could be into the hundreds of years.
2. The Ozone layer will be gone by 2020 (1989 or so?). From my high school science classes and the press I was lead to believe we'd be in space suits in a few years from now. Well go figure that the Ozone layer has been healing itself for the past decade over much of the globe. Why is that? I'm not sure but I think that refrigerant and propulsion (CFC type) advances have had a large impact.
3. Global warming caused by man will cause massive global flooding. The parallels drawn by Al Gore in his movie were pretty funny for me...as a person that uses logic from time to time. After the movie I asked what would happen if we invented "CO2 vacuums" or "Volcano scrubbers" or controls on other gases that have a great substantive effect such as methane? What if we solve nuclear fusion? What if we can use sea water as an energy source?
Now I read this article and smile. Yes we will come up with a way to curb this issue. The world is not coming to an end. There will be new advances, new markets and a way to make great gobs of money in the future in this wonderful capitalist society we have today. Don't fret, life's too short.
By the way the horse analogy goes like this:
Tell a man from 1900 that there will be 10 million people living in Manahattan in 100 years. He'll most likely respond "Where the hell would they put all the horses?"
Look forward. With proper incentives (moolah!) advances will continue to meet all challenges.
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