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Given the whole fiasco of the past few days, many of us are trying to find who to blame. Somewhere I know Vers is dying to say "I TOLD YOU SAVAGE WAS SETTING UP ROMEO TO FAIL!"
But is that true? Is it Romeo? Is it Savage? Well, it's obviously both in my mind. Now we have to try to sort it out. Let's start back from 2005.
Hiring Carthon - Romeo
Drafting Frye, Perkins when we needed O-line help - Savage
Giving big money to Baxter - Savage, but at the same time we would have been up the creek without a paddle had we not signed someone...plus you can't blame a GM when Baxter had no injury history.
Not much else from '05 since it was a "hold the fort" season and quite frankly we overachieved with miserable talent.
2006...this is when it gets interesting.
Retaining Mo - Romeo
Trading Dilfer for Dorsey and a 7th - on the surface, Savage. BUT, it was Romeo's decision to stand by Mo. Dilfer hated Mo so bad that he threatened retirement if he wasn't traded. He was gone either way. Does this fall on Romeo? I'm not sure but I'm leaning towards yes.
Starting Frye - Another hairy scenario as I'm inclined to believe that Dilfer would have eventually won the starting job had he stayed. I distinctly remember in several speeches Savage gave that he asked Romeo repeatedly if they needed to go out and get a QB...Romeo told Savage repeatedly "Phil, I'm fine with the quarterbacks."...I think this falls on Romeo?
Signing Shaffer and McGinest - Savage...although one may argue that McGinest helped out Wimbley...plus we'd be screwed without Shaffer at RT right now.
Drafting Travis Wilson when we needed OL and DL help - Savage
2007...
The QB situation - ????? that's up for debate
This is ignoring the coaching decisions. There's more to this that I don't have time to finish right now but I'll add more later, I'd like to hear your thoughts on this as well.
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I really like Savage and always have. I think Romeo is already on his way out, too many mistakes.  I don't think he was prepared to be a HC in the NFL when we brought him in. Honestly, I would rather have Grantham as HC at this point.
Last edited by CleVeLaNd_sTrife; 09/12/07 01:23 PM.
Cleveland Browns, Space Browns ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/iVP5Po2.png)
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As far as QB decisions are concerned for 2007...
I have to wonder if Savage purposely delayed Quinn's signing. Notice how quickly the deal got done once both sides decided "okay, it's time to get this done?"
Now, why in God's name would he do such a STUPID thing? Perhaps it's cuz he knew Quinn would run away with the QB competition in training camp, even though the plan was to sit him no matter what happened.
So, if Quinn won and was "ready," why NOT play him? Perhaps Savage knew that the team itself wouldn't be ready. The line not gelled yet, Wright and Pool learning on the fly, etc, and didn't wanna subject our prized posession to that kind of situation.
That's the only scenario that makes sense to me regarding the fumbling of the QB situation.
And as far as the Frye trade, I believe Diam's theory that both DA and Frye were on the trade block the whole time, and we were waiting til our first chance to trade one or the other. Injuries made it happen. Both Savage and Crennel both have egg on their faces after this one on the surface...and perhaps beneath it as well.
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I don't really care who is at fault... I just want to see the Browns start winning some stinking football games. There is no indication that wins are going to pile up for the Browns in 2007. 
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Quote:
There is no indication that wins are going to pile up for the Browns in 2007.
That's because they aren't. It's quite clear, IMO, that unless something happens QUICKLY (as in before Sunday) the organization is ready to toss this season in the crapper.
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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While I cannot disagree that the season is probably going to end up in the toilet I am wondering what you think can happen before Sunday that will change that? Short of hiring Marty back, that is.
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I think you're being too simplistic. A GM does not make decisions without consulting/input from the coaching staff. Mo, was definately a problem of Romeo's. Dilfer was Romeo's problem as well, via Carthon. Wilson was not a problem.... You have to look at the situation of the time.... Our # 1 receiver was Edwards, who was doing rehab. At the time of the draft, it was unknown if Braylon would be available for the early 2006 season. Couple that with not knowing if Winslow would be able to play or not made the receiving corps a VERY BIG QUESTION during the draft of 2006. Now as to having Wilson rated higher than Marques Colston.... well that is on Savage, but picking a WR was a good choice, given the knowledge of the time. Kinda like not signing Fraley because we expect Bentley will be availble soon.... If we hadn't signed Fraley, we'd be screwed now.... The only difference is Fraley turned out to be needed, and Edwards rehabbed well enough that Wilson wasn't needed after all.... If the contingency plan wasn't there, everyone would have been screaming Bloody Murder with Dropcutt as the # 1 receiver....  Everything here is so interlocked that assigning blame is difficult. What my question is, Is there really any blame to be assigned? As you stated 2005 was an overacheivement. 2006 was an underacheivement. I can see good reasons for the personnel decisions.... The coaching decisions, well, some of those I'm still trying to figure out... 
The Cleveland Browns - WE KNOW QUARTERBACKS ( Look at how many we've had ... )
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Quote:
If you KNOW a guy can lead a team to a 14-2 record coming in,that sort of shortens the learning curve.
Hirings and firings in the coaching staff would be the FIRST indicator that the FO is ready to toss this season in the crapper.
yebat' Putin
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I've never seen Browns fans start to stampede as quickly as we are this year. We go stomped by Pittsburgh, yeah I know, but they're a really good team right now. Let's see how the team responds up until the bye before we start getting together a hanging.
Let it be known that I'm not too sold on Crennell yet. He's had a couple of years and I don't see much out of him yet. I don't think it would be terribly smart or productive to fire him mid-season. We bought the ticket so let's take the ride, at least until we see what we've really got this year.
J.
"Let people think this is a dumpster fire," - Mike Pettine
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Savage has made some mistakes. But he is still 5 times better then Clark,Policy and Butch Davis combined.
3-4 years from now when Quinn and Thomas are franchise players, we will give Savage the key to the city.
Mistake I disagreed with Savage at the time, not in any order
1. Not resigning Russell, he was the QB of the secondary. Gotta keep vets until the are physically cant perform
2. Not keeping Antonio Bryant, maybe not a mistake since he has been in trouble, but sign him now
3.I wanted LT McNeil over Jackson in the second round last year, maybe not a big mistake
4. I never liked the Wilson pick
Things i loved about Savage
1. He brought in o-line help, Bentley not his fault, Thomas and Steinbach, found Fraley to step in.
2. Signed Bodden and Cribbs to long term deals and they are not going to make much more then a million a year
3. He traded for our first 1000 yard rusher then upgraded him for this year. next year Turner from the Chargers will be the Browns #1 target.
4. He got Crennel to fire Carthon
5. he has never put this team in salary cap hell, thanks to the help of Trip McCracken the teams wise money man
the positive outweigh the negatives. He is doing alot more for this team then Collins would have done. The fans helped win that battle.
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I don't know what can happen before Sunday to change things. I'm just saying it needs to be something or it will be clear to me that the Browns don't care about this season at all.
This is all starting to sound like some great conspiracy theory when reading the QB/RAC/Savage threads around this place. I'm trying hard to believe it's not that at all and it's just that this organization is not nearly as put together as we had hoped them to be by this point.
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Quote:
many of us are trying to find who to blame.
I'm not... none of the people whose names are being tossed about have been perfect... but I said it in a different thread.. in a few weeks, the Steelers game will be a distant nightmare, the Browns will have settled down and will be playing respectable football and many people will once again feel like we are on the right track...
As I also said in that thread, I'm not making any wins and losses predictions... not with the Bengals, Ravens, and Patriots as 3 of our next 4 games... but the quality of football on the field will be much improved...
yebat' Putin
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j/c.
if it ever comes to Romeo vs. Savage, I'm picking Savage in a heartbeat because I can see improvement from the individual players out on the field and the talent on the roster.
But I don't see improvement from the TEAM. IMO that comes from the coach.
It's not ALL Romeo's fault, just like it's not ALL Savage's fault...the truth lies somewhere in between and IMO it falls more on Romeo's side just based on the way he handled Carthon and the QB's.
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Just thought of this....Don't know who's fault it is.....BUT this board hasn't been this busy or thought provoking since the day OPIE was getting fired by Collins : 
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Point the blame where ever you like. But the personnel on the field are the results of Opie's doing via Free Agency and draft. What happens between the white lines on Sunday is RAC's responsibility.
There's no doubt that the team has improved talent wise. And a number of questions have been raised about how a starting QB is chosen, when to challenge calls, etc. Or if you prefer you can point the blame on the players themselves.
Me, I like Savage and Crennel and am not ready to cast either one of them aside. That would be counter productive. Just my .02.
And the next head coach is ......
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I'm not too sure anybody's really at fault,...yes,..there have been some bonehead moves,...and some stupid decisions made over the last 3 years,.....but is there any FO or coaching staff that continuously bats 1000?
At the end of the day,..you gotta look at the team as a whole and see how much we've improved over the last 3 years.
What was our strengths as a team then compared to now,?......from where I sit I think we're much better than we've been in the past.....The Steeler game was one horrible game,...it doesn't mean we'll do that every week.
The QB situation here was not handled properly at all,....PS doesn't appear to be a QB guy,...he definately wasn't in Baltimore,....and RAC's all D,....not strong area for these guys......If BQ's the guy( I think he is) than that's one HUGE obstacle out of the way for this team once he starts playing,.. and then we can start to focus more on the fine tuning of things.
We've got so many pieces of the puzzle already,...we just got to get them all together,....this is the year for that.
This is a critical time right now,.....we can't come out this Sunday and play like we did last week,....we gotta keep the players heads in the right place and focused......Unfortunately the players are also waiting for BQ and have to be patient,...just like the rest of us.
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No offense intended, trying to place blame is an awfully hard thing to do, however there are plenty of people on here that want to blame somebody,,
QB
Coach
Oline
GM
etc etc etc..
I think, what we have here is a couple of guys (rac and Phil) that came into an absolutly horrible set of circumstances.
Righting the ship is a tough job. Nobody really has an absolute blueprint to follow. So you take calculated steps, move cautiously, and hope that not to many things blow up in your face on the way to being a respectable team.
Injuries, Guys that should have performed better than they did, etc etc. all those things conspire against you.. Again, some of those things that are out of your control.
But you trudge on in hopes of fixing what's broken.
I believe playing the Blame Game is just about as big a waste of time as anyting under the sun to be honest... But if you must, look around, there are plenty of places to lay blame.. All look logical to someone, but are they really?
Of course some will say yes.
RAC and Savage came here with a Plan... we've lauded some of the accomplishments along the way.. some very good moves have occurred.. some bad ones also.
I can't tell anyone else what to do,, that's for each of you to decide,, but I'm sticking with Savage and RAC for now.
I believe they've had an impossible job to do in the amount of time to date.
So do what you want, I'm sticking with them... Blame be damned,,, Blaming people or things never did anyone any good anyway...
#GMSTRONG
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Damanshot
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I don't really care who is at fault... I just want to see the Browns start winning some stinking football games.
Really, We've all done the pointing fingers thing, blame this or that and it ant got us a darn thing or any closer to the playoffs.
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So you take calculated steps, move cautiously, and hope that not to many things blow up in your face on the way to being a respectable team.
The counter to that is, everybody agreed on the long term plan... but 2 years and 1 game in, it's evident that people are getting anxious... so while you move cautiously, you must also move forward... the thing is, people expect our improvement to be linear over 3 or 4 years... and it usually doesn't work like that... you struggle and you struggle and you struggle... while you put the pieces in place, then one year you're good and the next year you're great... It is my opinion that by the time this year ends, we could be considered in that "good" category..... not sure if next year we take the leap to great or not... but we could be real good next year...
yebat' Putin
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I think it's hard to rate good/bad picks yet.
Until you have a team of quality players, that a bad pick goes un-noticed, we will always question these things.
We got our top pick last year playing right away, and our 2nd played some decent time last year as well. We have 2 of our first 3 picks starting this year already, and the other is much better than what we are fielding, but we are afraid of "ruining" him before the "team" is ready for him.
Last year Savage got Schaffer and Bentley for the Oline last year, hoping that was enough talent to overcome the shortcomings of the the 2 guards. Can't blame anyone that Bentley went down. but Savage did a nice job of filling the role with Fraley, who has been a blessing.
You don't want to replace your entire line in a single year, your basically asking to get your QB killed.
This is their 3rd year, with a complete roster turn over -9 players, thats 44 players that weren't here 2 season ago. Not to mention a completely new O-Cord, D-Cord in his 3rd year, and our 3rd QB in 3 years.
It;s not like Payton Mannings, Orlando Paces, Chad Johnsons, Ladanian Tomlinsons are available every year. It takes time to find quality players, and it takes time to create a steady stream, or what we MMoRPGers call, "breaking the camp/cycle".
Essentially what "breaking the camp/cycle" is is taking your group/team up to a group of spawns monsters, and killing them off in a pattern, that if done right eventually leaves you with 1 or 2 monsters at a time between re-spawn timers, rather than the original 6 or 8 that were there to start. making it easier for the group to control the situation as players need to leave and be replaced.
I know weird analogy, but it similar, don't be surprised to see some of our good talent move on to greener pastures before we right the ship, we are still in the cycle of filling the roster will people who can step into the hole while maintaining close to the same team performance overall.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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What has happened in this past off season has nothing to do with drafting or coaching. It has been a total mess in leadership that everyone who comments on football has noticed. I have said in a couple of threads now that I don't know who is to blame. It is easy to point the finger at Romeo since he is the head coach, but how much control does he have?
What scares me about this whole thing is that this mess may have started higher up than Romeo. How much meddling is Savage, or Lerner for that matter, doing? You cannot have the team being run from the front office, that is the job of the coach. I don't know where these decisions are being made and who has supported them. If it turns out it was romeo than that's an easy fix. If it is Savage or more importantly Lerner than we have a real problem.
This has nothing to do with the beat down Pittsburgh gave us. Teams have bad games and comeback and play well later. What I am more worried about is the leadership of this team which is scaring the hell out of me. I know some players are wondering what in the world we are doing. That is a bad sign.
FYI. I did not hear this from our resident football wife. We never talk about what happens behind the scenes and we never will. Anyone who wants to ask her don't. Even if she knows something she can't say.
#gmstrong
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"2. Not keeping Antonio Bryant, maybe not a mistake since he has been in trouble, but sign him now"
He was supended for the first four games this year, LAST YEAR. Another issue with him (just a matter of time) and he's gone for a year. No head cases needed here......
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"Ok, so who's at fault where?"
Art Modell!
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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The one thing I'm happy about is the turnover of players (or potential lack thereof)... Next year, we should be starting and using (unless we upgrade) Quinn Lewis Vickers Edwards JJ Cribbs Winslow Heiden/Dinkins Thomas Steinbach Fraley Bentley (hopefully) Shaffer/Tucker And on defense Smith Big Ted DQ Davis/Williams Peak/Thompson Wimbley Bodden Baxter Wright Holley Jones Pool... Zastudil and Dawson... and of course, Pontbriand..  When have we ever had a season where we returned 25+ starters and contributors from the previous year and people didn't think most of them sucked? Not lately. Sure it would be nice to upgrade some of those players (and we will), but we could, for the first time in forever, actually have SOME continuity from one season to the next... This is the primary reason that I think changing the coaches is a TERRIBLE IDEA..... I was even able to list a couple depth players on there who are respectable like Thompson and Dinkins... Gang, the sky is NOT falling..... there is no need to place blame (at least not yet)...
yebat' Putin
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You know, on Sunday you kept going round and round on how everything that happened against the Steelers was Frye's fault. Now frye is gone and you are still going on and on with blame and wanting firings. Why is it you are hellbent on running half this team out of Cleveland because of 1 game?
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Lewis would have to re-signed first
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Quote:
Lewis would have to re-signed first
I hate nit-pickers...  
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
The counter to that is, everybody agreed on the long term plan... but 2 years and 1 game in, it's evident that people are getting anxious
I know I am,, I'm real anxious,, but I'm trying to control it,, not an easy task.
I can only tell you this.. if you had major surgery, and your wife walked in right in the middle of it and saw your guts laying all over the place,, that would be an anxious moment,, right? while not as serious, the guts at browns HQ are all over the place,, Maybe it's just too early to start blaming people.. I know it's hard, but maybe we should let them do thier jobs.
If it's a five year plan (which I thought it was) then it's at the middle or end of year 4 you start panicking.. Not at the beginning of year 3.
Just a thought however..
#GMSTRONG
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Damanshot
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Well said. When do we start looking at Lerner and the leadership, vison, and most importantly management of the Browns? Is Randy an owner that can lead a top organization? Is he the son of one?
I think that Randy has been given a free pass. He will spend money, and I think his heart is in the right place, but...
To build a top NFL franchise requires a skill set just like a top coach or general manager. Does Randy Lerner have that skill set?
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It doesn't really matter what Randy has or doesn't have... he's the owner and no amount of our whining and complaining is going to change it....
But from my perspective, he has hired good people to do their job and stayed out of the way (as far as I know).. which is why I like him...
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
Lewis would have to re-signed first
I can see that happening, If the wheels dont completely fall off this year and we like what we see out of his i can see a 2 year deal with a third year at team option
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Assuming Lewis stays healthy this year and has good feet... .... I'd like to see him re-signed, then bring in a FA or a draft pick and let them split time next year...
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
Assuming Lewis stays healthy this year and has good feet... .... I'd like to see him re-signed, then bring in a FA or a draft pick and let them split time next year...
My thinking, but your right....it all hinders on those Quick feet... 
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I guess I just don't get it...every year people come out and say '7-9...but with a little luck 10-6' or really out there things like that. And then the more knowledgable heads come around and say 'we'll be lucky to win 6', and after awhile people begin to concede their opinions to something like 'yeah, we're not quite there yet, so we'll go 6-10...but playoffs next year!'...as soon as the season is upon us, everyone catches a fever and goes to 'yeah, we'll stink agian...but maybe, just maybe, we won't!'...and then, we stink, because we're a bad football team, and everyone who had resignedly adopted the opinion that we'll stink suddenly is up in arms about what they claimed to know would happen.
34-7 loss to the Steelers in an ugly fashion...WHY DOES THIS SUPRISE ANYONE?
We are a bad football team. We have no quarterback. We have no coach . We have an offensive line that has and will be bad for a bit because they've never played together. They are a UNIT, not five guys who go out and do separate tasks. We have a defensive line that can't stop the run, a rookie cornerback, weak safeties...we are VERY YOUNG. I mean, why are people so upset that we got drubbed? We're supposed to...it's par for the course.
Who's at fault? Blind optimists.
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Thanks for that uplifting moment Phil... would you like to come over and kick my dog now?
yebat' Putin
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Who's at fault?
The boys in Berea. The fans are never at fault for a bad team. Never.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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you would be hard pressed, I would think, to find a head coach or general manager who hasn't taken a stupid breath.
I wonder if Savage is getting to involved in the personnel and coaching and has basically castrated Romeo.
The decision to start Frye over Dilfer, if memory serves, was to see what he got and if they had to go out and get another QB. Doesn't sound like a Romeo move to me.
The decision to squeeze Mo out.
Replacing the coaching staff
The drafts\FA moves, I wonder how much input Romeo has on all this.
Getting rid of Frye, kinda makes the whole coin flip thing take on a whole new meaning of BAD on Romeo's part.
I don't know what is going through people's heads, but I just think that maybe Romeo's heart isn't into it when you have someone making all these moves around and above this long tenured coach. Deserving or not.
I think fault, maybe, lies with the whole organization to some degree
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,659
Poser
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Poser
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,659 |
Quote:
You know, on Sunday you kept going round and round on how everything that happened against the Steelers was Frye's fault. Now frye is gone and you are still going on and on with blame and wanting firings. Why is it you are hellbent on running half this team out of Cleveland because of 1 game?
Because he and his friends were sitting on the couch with his dad saying so, don't you follow his posts? This is the guy that was demanding an apology from Lerner last year, talking about how he bails on teams that lose and jump to winning teams as a "fan", slams one QB while pimping taking one in the draft with the #3 pick that fell to the 5th round, and on and on and on and you're asking why he is feels a certain way of anything? The answer is he doesn't have a clue about building a team and is typical of the "I want it now" mentality of those that are in such an uproar.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,704
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,704 |
Quote:
Quote:
You know, on Sunday you kept going round and round on how everything that happened against the Steelers was Frye's fault. Now frye is gone and you are still going on and on with blame and wanting firings. Why is it you are hellbent on running half this team out of Cleveland because of 1 game?
Because he and his friends were sitting on the couch with his dad saying so, don't you follow his posts? This is the guy that was demanding an apology from Lerner last year, talking about how he bails on teams that lose and jump to winning teams as a "fan", slams one QB while pimping taking one in the draft with the #3 pick that fell to the 5th round, and on and on and on and you're asking why he is feels a certain way of anything? The answer is he doesn't have a clue about building a team and is typical of the "I want it now" mentality of those that are in such an uproar.
I think Coach pretty much nailed it
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 20
Rookie
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Rookie
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 20 |
Food for thought:
The Pats lose Romeo and Charlie Weis, but continue to win very consistently. Meanshile, Romeo and Charlie are struggling mightily and are looking like they are not the genius' the media made them both out to be.
From Cleveland to KC to south central Florida, this dawg has made his travels - and changed his display name for each move.
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Ok, so who's at fault where?
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