DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2019 NFL Season Looking Back: Browns 13 Titans 43 Postgame Thoughts

I was going to mention that Ward did not play as well as he normally does. I think part of it was our coverages. I also think the entire secondary struggled. Most folks are getting on the DL, but they did get pressure. Tenn just didn't have many plays where they held onto the ball. They got rid of it pretty quick on most plays. That makes the secondary play even worse.

I don't know if it is on YouTube or not, but check out the first deep pass where Brown beat Ward. While you're watching, concentrate on Randall and then tell me what the hell he was doing. LOL

I think there are a lot of things to nitpick but ultimately at the end of the day the Browns crumbled under the weight of the expectations.

This is frustrating because no matter how many times we change the names this always seems to happen. We've been told that we have constructed a team of tough minded competitors...mentally tough guys who can will the team to victory. I saw a team fold after Henry's long TD run.

Not really sure what to think at this point. Hard not to be apathetic at this point.

It looked to me like Ward was expecting Randall to help.

I'm pretty sure it was Greedy who had outside contain but got sucked inside on the wide open TD run to the right. IMO our CB"s overall had a terrible outing as it seemed they were constantly one step behind the WRs... BUT in all fairness that was what I saw on all the big chunk plays. I don't know if they were consistently being left in the dust.

Was Brown really that big of a dude, or are Ward and Greedy just that small???

Both. Greedy is pretty tall for a corner. Ward is really small. Brown is a monster.

Randall was running every direction except the right one.

I'm not ready to pull the plug on Freddie but I will say I hope this game reminds him that he still has a lot, as in just about everything, to prove. I suspect we'll learn a lot more who the driving force behind last year's turn around was after this week against the Jets.

Thanks for the thoughts on the secondary, everyone. It seems like nobody played well ... and certainly not well enough to win.

Not a good sign, especially given the NFL today. If we can’t stop the TITANS from big passing plays then we’re in big trouble against the real offensive teams.

I really don't know how tall Brown is, but the guy is jacked. I liked him more than almost any WR in the draft because he is strong, runs good routes, is quick out of the breaks, and catches the ball. I think the knock on him is that he doesn't have blazing speed, but he looked pretty fast yesterday.

Hmmmm............you tweaked my interest, so I am going to go look up his numbers...

...He is 6'0" and 226 lbs. Ran a 4.49 40.

After re-watching some of the game, I have additional thoughts:

1. Bob Wylie was correct. The offense we ran last year with the 3 back sets, some wishbone looks, etc is 100% Ken Zampese's offense and you can easily see this by looking back at the 2016-2017 Bengals when Zampese was OC. Its crystal clear to me now that Zampese was the one who drew up all the game plans, routes, blocking schemes, etc and all Kitchens done was pick a play off the chart. It was Zampese who was the architect of offensive system last year that turned us around. All Kitchens did was call the plays.

The Offense I saw yesterday looked very much like the Todd Monken run 2018 Tampa Bay offense. Lots of 3 WR sets, lots of long developing passing plays, not a whole lotof running, a lot of empty backfield sets. It looks to me like Monken is designing the plays, blocking schemes, routes, etc and Kitchens is just picking a play. the bad thing is this team doesn't have the personal on the OL to run the long developing routes that Monken is known for.

Ken Zampese at the better system because it was more balanced. You cna run or pass out of 3 Tight end sets, you cna run or pass out of 3 man backfield, Zampese system was very QB friendly and gave Mayfield the option for runs or quick throws.

Defensively, its a wash. Willaims blitzed a lot but we got toasted quite a bit. Wilk seems to rely more on Front 4 Pressure, but we are much weaker on the backside now that we don't have Peppers. Peppers was very good at taking opposing TE and RB out of the pass gaming and acting like a hammer in run support.

https://dawgpounddaily.com/2019/08/06/cleveland-browns-beloved-wylie-no-longer-matters-kitchens/

I know folks won't like me saying this, but it looks like what Bob Wylie said is right...it was Zampese's system last year, not Kitchens...Ken Zampese had been in the league since 1998, He learned under guys like Mike Martz, Ray Rhodes, Mike McCarthy, Sean Payton.

Look I get it, Kitchens is a young guy he had never even been a coordinator until late last year. I think we made a big time mistake not retaining Zampese. He wanted to stay here by all accounts, his system was instrumental in Mayfield's success last year.

We just don't have the OL to run Monken's long deep developing routes...If we don't start running the ball, and I mean running the ball ALOT Mayfield isn't going to last the season. We saw last year with "Fitzmagic" that when you can't run the ball, Monken's system don't work.

This situation is salvageable, but we gotta run the ball more. I don't think Kitchens will do that. Monken had the 11th ranked rush offense last year. I really think Kitchen's needs to hand play calling duties over to Monken. Kitchens is doing what all rookie OC do, they panic and pass, pass,pass,pass like we saw yesterday once we were down by 6...I believe Monken would have stuck to the running game with the game being as close as it was, and this is due to Monken having 2016-2018 as exp as an OC.

Monken called good games with Tampa last year. He never pankicked and gave up on the running game like Kitchens did yesterday. I think Kitchens can be a good head coach, but he doesn't need to call plays. Tomlin is a good head coach and he doesn't call plays, Kitchens shouldn't be either., its enough being a head coach, he has enough to worry about..he needs to trust the guys he hired or why hire them in the 1st place?

I'd much rather have Monken calling the plays, there is no reason he shouldn't be..he is more qualified and has more exp as a play caller than Kitchens. Kitchens needs to focus on the team as a whole and ensure they are ready for Sundays.

Hell no!!!

So in retrospect, at least initially .. the additions of Vernon and OBJ have actually made us worse than if we’d have just kept Peppers, Zeitler, and used that 1st round pick on an OT

Come on, man. It's one game. That's not why we lost the game.

I need to do some work. It's getting crazy in here now.

So many uncharacteristic things in this game. This team was one of the least penalized teams in the preseason(when considering the starters or direct backups). Players lashing out(specifically who was lashing out).
Baker indecisive. Just a lot of uncharacteristic things.

And Vrabel's reaction after Robinson's ejection led me to believe this was part of their plan. To get under the skin. Try to get players ejected...And they did.

I thought we were horridly undisciplined...Some of the worst I have ever seen...but I also think the refs were one-sided. The defensive holding by the Titans was atrocious and rarely called. The holding by their OLine was often uncalled. The OPI on Beckham should have been Defensive Holding The guy was grabbing the front of his jersey 15 yards down field.

No passes being given on our undisciplined play...They sucked. It was embarrassing. But everyone is jumping on Robinson...and for losing his cool...they should. But they are also saying he sucked and bringing up the Illegal Blindside Block as proof(another BS call). I think the call was very questionable and he ran the play as designed. I don't jump on him over that play where others (especially the media) are. I didn't focus on him for his other plays...I was too busy screaming at Hubbard.

We will never hear it...but I would like to hear their side of the story. It doesn't forgive them...But I would like some understanding of what was going on out there. Because it was just so out of the ordinary.

That’s why I said INITIALLY ... I totally get it about one game. We could very well come out like gangbusters and win 15 straight. But yesterday we looked WAY worse than I ever imagined.

Please don't take my previous comment as a knock on Kitchens! Its not meant that way.

I just think this situation is easily salvageable, all we gotta do is:

1. Hand over playing calling to Todd Monken.
2. Let Freddie Kitchens focus on being the head coach and managing the whole thing.

This will be a net positive for everyone. Kitchens is the guy we decided on, and I want him to succeed. We have to give him the best chance to do some. Even Bellichik doesn't call his own plays, McDaniels does. Freddie Kitchens will have a much better chance turning things around by letting Monken call the plays and focusing on being the best Head Coach he can be and giving his input to the game plans.

Read between the lines. In fact, you don't even have to do that as I spelled it out after my analogy. All I am saying is those of you calling for coaches heads or questioning the QB after one terrible loss is so typical of Browns fans. Look, I'm not sugarcoating our loss. It was pathetic. But, I'm also not ready to throw my hands up and say the sky is falling after one loss.

Why not Monken had the 11th ranked run offense last year in Tampa. He did admirably considering he had Fitzpatrick and Winston as QB neither of those guys are as good as Baker.

i'd rather have Monken calling plays than Kitchens, Kitchens is just calling plays from Monken's offense anyways. Kitchens needs more exp as a head coach before we flop play calling duties on him. He hasn't been more than a position coach until this year, the current way of doing things is setting him up to fail.

It seemed to me like we had a strange hybrid of Kitchens and Monken .. it had no balance, no rhythm, and didn’t use our strengths.

Too many long drop backs, not enough quicker throws, not enough 2TE, not enough run/play action stuff ...

I am grateful for the first offensive series.

At the skilled positions the Browns are loaded. The questions I had about this team was the OL and HC. Freddie looked like what he is, a rookie HC and except for the first drive, the OL looked weak.

Not really so much replying to you....
I held off coming in here until today. I was really mad watching the whole game yesterday. Wanted to cool off for a sec before I posted. I specifically decided only to read the first page and then the most recent page.

1. I'm hopeful that this game will simply serve as the kick in balls that this team needed. They listened to all the hype, and then they went up against a grinding, consistent, solid-but unspectacular Titans team. You gotta bring it every Sunday, even if you're supposed to stomp a team.

2. Refs - I really just want to get this out of the way now. I thought the refs were alright. They had a couple bad calls against us, and they let some stuff go on the Titans side, but it really wasn't that bad. Seriously, nobody here can say that they haven't seen FAR FAR worse. In my living room, the vast majority of the time I would be all like "WTH!?!?!?!" until they showed the replay. Some calls were ticky-tack, but very few were straight up bad (Robinson blindside, OBJ PI are really the only two straight-bad calls I can think of off the top of my head).

3. Discipline - Usually, team discipline falls on the coach. What we saw yesterday goes so much further than what can be put on one person (head guy or not). Our starting LT kicked a guy in the head and got ejected. The level of stupidity you have to sink to for that to happen is totally 'nother level. The repeated late hits on Mariota early on (those were not bad calls) were totally stupid. The smack to the head from Garrett. There are more examples. The stupidity exhibited by this team throughout the roster and throughout the game yesterday can't be pinned on the coach. If it were regular, run of the mill discipline issues, that would be the coach. This is different.I don't put it all on Freddie, but (and it's not fair) it's now Freddie's problem to fix. While I'm all-in on the Freddie bandwagon since he's the guy, I'm really curious as to how he handles this mess (and I say that because I said before I didn't think he was ready to handle a team, especially this type of team, with his experience). Honestly, I'm not trying to say I told you so... really, I'm not. But I do want to point out that Freddie's "alright, let's see what you got" moment is here, probably a little sooner than he thought.
Sidebar: I hope someone (Freddie, Dorsey) gets in Robinson's ear and lets him know that Trent Williams wouldn't have gotten ejected and basically single-handedly caused the o-line to implode on opening day. Let him chew on that all week. Along those lines, I wouldn't be too disappointed if the coaches and FO decided to make an example of someone. Releasing that bum TE that apparently can't catch or block (Harris?), replacing Robinson (would be tough to do) or Hubbard (also tough) with some Dorsey trade magic I think would send a message. I normally don't talk like this, and I cringe when people jump on here and are all like "release this guy, baaaaaaah!" but what we saw yesterday was new-low-bad. I think a strong response could be warranted.

Now the bad, but not comically bad...
Offense - We got a taste of what this offense is capable of on that first drive. I think if you strip out some of the more outlandish stupidity we saw (Robinson, Hubbard getting beat like a rented mule and Harris apparently trying to block for the first time in his career), the offense showed flashes of what it could be with lots of inconsistency. The inconsistency was what I was expecting. I did see them trying to get back on track early when it looked like the wheels might start coming off. They started running the ball fairly well, mostly. Starting hitting on some passes again. I think people that are able to look past the more ridiculous stuff will see an offense that, when it's focused and not getting in its own way, showed it can be both explosive and strong. I really was happy with the way they started to respond to adversity after initial trouble (and before it really went to hell).

Baker: I thought he did better than I think many will realize. He wasn't good, but he wasn't all that bad. He really didn't fall apart until the very end there. I was surprised he didn't start forcing things sooner. He's still a 2nd year quarterback. He got had by a saavy, grinding, well-executed Titans D. Still Baker showed some bright spots, and hung in there longer than I thought he would. What I wasn't happy about was his accuracy and occasional bouts of holding the ball. Many of his throws were off, guys had to reach all over the place.I remember seeing this last year... he seems to kind of waver, game to game, with his accuracy. Hopefully he'll bounce back in this department like he's shown he can. Don't be mistaken, the drops were also an issue, but Baker also wasn't delivering a good-enough ball.

Overall, if I were to make a ranking of things that went wrong, Baker would show up a couple times on that list, but would be fairly far down. The accuracy issue is serious, but that game was just such a cluster- that I think there are a bunch of even more serious issues to focus on first.

Sorry for writing a novel. I'd love to hear responses to what I thought I saw.

Nice thoughts Oob ... I think we’re probably all going to agree with a lot of that.

For me, I’ll just single out HARRIS. That dude needs to be gone, and I’ve been banging that drum for weeks now. He simply is a bad player.

After doing research this morning I’m realizing how IMPORTANT that blocking/2nd TE is to what we did last year and what WORKS for us. We MUST upgrade that spot

Really, what I'm interested in hearing, and what I was subtly trying to get at...

1- Does anyone think we're just a smack-upside-the-head away from being a good team?

2- The refs... they weren't all that bad(?).

3- We did do some good things buried amongst the monumentally stupid stuff.

4- Roster changes might not be all that crazy a response to what we did out there.

1. I think that will help, but I also think our personnel isn’t fitting what we were doing. And I also think we are deficient on the OL and secondary.

2. The penalty on OBJ, the blindside block, and a few non holding calls on them were BAD.

3. Good sign was that Baker didn’t force stuff through 3 quarters and we hung around, yes.

4. A few Changes in areas of deficiencies have to occur IMO

1) Browns are a good team that had a bad opening game. 2)True 3)Yes we did some good things. 4) Don't expect roster changes.

The Titans played the game the way I expected our guys to play.

Respectfully I think Freddie IS more accountable for the high number of stupid penalties than maybe you are alloting him. That many unsportsmanlike penalties from that many different players is a result of an attitude or culture. Either Freddie instilled that attitude or he was so hands off that the attitude filled the void. Either way, it's his responsibility.

I know it might seem unfair on my part but look at the first few unsportsmanlike penalties... I think it was Whitehead with the late hit on Mariotta... then it was Myles... then it was Robinson... The late hit was purely reckless... and the other two were too early in the game to say that Myles and Robinson were justifiably irritated in to retaliating. How many times do you think Robinson's been knocked on his can like that in his career? At least one O lineman a play I'd venture. And Myles takes waaaay more abuse when he gets head locked trying to get to the QB than some simple little pushing.

Look, for YEARS I've been saying I wish our guys would stop letting themselves get punked out. But you don't keep from getting punked out by acting like a punk.

Regardless of just how much Freddie is responsible for 18 penalties, I do agree that it IS HIS problem to deal with now.

Beyond looking for some legit O lineman, I don't know how much more roster changes would help. I feel like if a blocking TE/upback was what we wanted we wouldn't have released Charles.

I don't think the refs were too bad either. They had some stinker calls, but it WAS Week 1. I think it could have been worse

Rico Gathers is eligible to be activated from suspension this week. I suspect that will happen. The only question is, "Who goes?".

Some of us saw this coming. I also believe that with the heavy investment of cap space and talent brought in, the leash will be shorter from Dorsey and Haslam as well.

Randall is expected to have his back, even if it was in the open field, but Ward simply let Brown run right through him.

Then Ward was beat deep on their first big play and looked to be looking in the backfield instead of keeping track of his man.

A vast majority of the penalties likely don't happen if we have Robinson the entire game. There were so many offensive holding calls because of our tackles that it was ridiculous. Additionally, him going out was the added pressures and hurries, which no doubt aided in the three INTs.

It isn't terribly unfair to pin the entire loss on Greg Robinson. His one tantrum with the two kicks was the wheels coming off. He ignited the chain of events that led to that death spiral.

Don't take this as whining because it really isn't, but if Baker Mayfield was 6'5", 245ilbs would he have been called in the grasp?

I don't blame the refs as I think they were protective. I was expecting a Baker to erupt and get an unsportsmanlike penalty after that whistle but was glad he pulled himself down emotionally.

This is my perspective as well - whoever the HC has been, whichever year, the penalties are a direct responsibility of the HC imo. Culture, attitude, coaching ... all a reflection of the HC. It's one of the things that I was surprised and impressed with last year when we went from a fairly heavily penalized team to a pretty disciplined team "overnight" with the change in HC. . . . just like all the other issues, it's fixable and perhaps it's understandable given several factors, but it has to be one of the highest priorities to fix.

I fully expected (wanted) him to bean that Ref in the head with the ball; Hell, I was trying to will him to do it.

IIRC, on the very next play, they let him get crushed on a sack before any whistle was blown. Definitely inconsistent.

J/c

The talk of Robinson got me thinking about his possible suspension ... we simply HAVE to come up with a solution for our OT play. Whether that is personnel, game plan, play calling, etc

j/c:

That’s a crazy image