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Re: Building Through the Draft Savage? ImpactPlaya #166279 09/17/07 08:25 AM
Joined: Sep 2006 Posts: 6,160 C-Bus Attack Dawg Hall of Famer
Attack Dawg Hall of Famer Joined: Sep 2006 Posts: 6,160 C-Bus	Phil Savage's lack of a impact players from his 1st draft is really hurting the Browns progress as a franchise right now. I think your posts hurt this forum more than Phils drafts If anyone wants to debate drafts..U came to the right person..right here.. Edwards was the BPA on the board and Phil stuck to his board..we had no impact players on offense and he got one..not the selection I wanted but a impact player. Pool was regarded as top 20 player in the 06 draft had he stayed in college so Phil grabbed him early..again not my selection but the reasons were undestandable. Pool is a player who thinks too much instead of just playing..so it's not a done deal with him yet. Frye was the pick that Phil went against his board..he had Ellis Hobbs tagged higher but he went with a QB he actually scouted for two years and being 3rd round pick the risk was lesser. Antonio Perkins....out of the league...Can't play CB and can't even return punts to justify being the 45th guy on a roster. David McMillan...good for depth only..does nothing sepcial Nick Speegle and Nick Hoffman..want fries with that? Perkins was a bad pick IMO ..but again IMO , Phil and his scouts were not not on the same page with the Browns needs in that first draft.. So are you done? GO back to the Bungals board where U originated from..

Re: Building Through the Draft Savage? ibleedorange #166280 09/17/07 09:57 AM
Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 1,165 Gift Horse OP Dawg Talker
OP Gift Horse Dawg Talker Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 1,165	Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: How many guys in any round are still here from the Butch Davis era or even still in the league? Quite a few: 4 97 Anthony Henry DB South Florida 5 141 Andra Davis LB Florida 4 122 Darnell Sanders TE Ohio State 4 111 Ben Taylor LB Virginia Tech 4 101 Kevin Bentley LB Northwestern 6 195 Antonio Garay DE Boston College 5 152 Michael Lehan DB Minnesota 5 142 Ryan Pontbriand C Rice 7 208 Adimchinobe Echemandu RB California 5 161 Amon Gordon DE Stanford 4 106 Luke McCown QB Louisiana Tech Now name some first day people This truth even makes brownie laugh Kellen Winslow 2 - starter Sean Jones - starter Jeff Faine - starter Chaun Thompson - solid player Chris Crocker - starter William Green - bust Andre Davis - injury prone Melvin Fowler - traded for a guy still on the team GW - starter Quincy Morgan - contributed on several teams / starter for several years J Jackson - mediocre for a third round pick

Re: Building Through the Draft Savage? Damanshot #166281 09/17/07 10:01 AM
Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 1,165 Gift Horse OP Dawg Talker
OP Gift Horse Dawg Talker Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 1,165	Quote: No, we aren't on the same side of this argument. What caused me to respond to you in the first place is because you said that Trading Faine for DQ made that draft go from outstanding to just good I'll take one more shot at clarifying - I feel the talent in Phil's second draft class was very good and the "value of what we paid to get them" was just "good".

Re: Building Through the Draft Savage? Gift Horse #166282 09/17/07 10:58 AM
Joined: Sep 2006 Posts: 3,887 FreeAgent Hall of Famer
FreeAgent Hall of Famer Joined: Sep 2006 Posts: 3,887	Quote: Kellen Winslow 2 - starter Great Player Sean Jones - starter Good Player Jeff Faine - starter Mediocre Player not worth First Round pick Chaun Thompson - solid player Mediocre Player not worth Second Round pick, probably could of had in the 5th or 6th round Chris Crocker - starter Mediocre Player William Green - bust TJ Ducket would have been a better pick Andre Davis - injury prone Bust Melvin Fowler - traded for a guy still on the team Bust GW - starter Playing for 3rd team, Not worth #3 overall, pass on LT for him when Ron Wolfe said draft LT Quincy Morgan - contributed on several teams / starter for several years Bust, He was eventually knocked down to Punt returner and he was so good that Pittsburgh drafted to replace him. J Jackson - mediocre for a third round pick Mediocre??? Try terrible, because he was.

Re: Building Through the Draft Savage? FreeAgent #166283 09/17/07 11:30 AM
Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 1,165 Gift Horse OP Dawg Talker
OP Gift Horse Dawg Talker Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 1,165	Quote: GW - starter Playing for 3rd team, Not worth #3 overall, pass on LT for him when Ron Wolfe said draft LT That's a crap arguement and you know it. You could just as easily criticize Savage for taking Edwards when he should have taken Merriman, Pool when he should have taken F Gore, Frye when he should have taken Kaczur. Thompson wasn't going to be around in the 5th or 6th You criticize this pick but he's been a solid contibutor on this team for four years and survived house cleaning after house cleaning. RAC must think he's pretty worthwhile or he wouldn't be here. He was taken in the 52nd slot and Frye was taken in the 67th slot (albeit a different year). Phil's pick is gone and Thompson is still on the team, Doesn't that tell you something? Trying to talk about Savage on this board is like some version of "The Emperor's New Clothes" (Some of you will get that; some won't.)

Re: Building Through the Draft Savage? Gift Horse #166284 09/17/07 12:08 PM
Joined: Sep 2006 Posts: 3,887 FreeAgent Hall of Famer
FreeAgent Hall of Famer Joined: Sep 2006 Posts: 3,887	Quote: That's a crap arguement and you know it. You could just as easily criticize Savage for taking Edwards when he should have taken Merriman, Pool when he should have taken F Gore Edwards and Pool are starters on our team, Warren has been traded to his third team and has never, ever played #3 overall talent. PERIOD. If you want to beat Botch's chest about a #3 overall pick that has never even come close to playing at the level he was drafted for, how about you give Savage some credit for bringing in Peek? Quote: Thompson wasn't going to be around in the 5th or 6th You criticize this pick but he's been a solid contibutor on this team for four years and survived house cleaning after house cleaning. RAC must think he's pretty worthwhile or he wouldn't be here. He was taken in the 52nd slot and Frye was taken in the 67th slot (albeit a different year). Thompson played or an 0-11 Division II school....he was not worthy of 2nd round #52 pick overall. Yes he's still here, for depth and special teams mostly. 2nd round pick should be a starter, not a back up/special team player. Quote: Phil's pick is gone and Thompson is still on the team, Doesn't that tell you something? Two entirley different positions and entirley different situations. Quote: Trying to talk about Savage on this board is like some version of "The Emperor's New Clothes" (Some of you will get that; some won't.) And some fans it's like some version of Chicken Little.

Re: Building Through the Draft Savage? FreeAgent #166285 09/17/07 12:46 PM
Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 1,165 Gift Horse OP Dawg Talker
OP Gift Horse Dawg Talker Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 1,165	Quote: how about you give Savage some credit for bringing in Peek? OK, I think Savage hit gold bringing in Peek. So long as Wimbley stays healthy and draws the offensive attention I expect Peek to have a very, very good year. While I'm at it I think he did a nice job bringing in (27) FA's: Adams Ali Andersen Baxter Butler Carter Dinkins Dorsey Fraley Frasier Freidman Griffin Holly JJ Kelley Lewis McGuinist McKinney Shaffer Smith Smith 2 Stein TW K Wright J Wright Zastudil But that's not building through the draft, is it? And he inherited (and kept) several (11) players from Butch: Bodden Davis Dawson Fowler/Dorsey/trade Heiden Jones Pontibrand Roye Thompson Tucker KW2 So just by a real quick count that's 38 roster spots filled from "non-draft" means. That leaves only 15 drafted players on the roster. Cribs was a UDFA Harrison isn't likely to play a big role on the team Sowells the same Wilson seems very shakey And Vickers is a 6th round FB That leaves only 10 drafted players contributing on Sundays. That assumes McDonald sees some playing time. Hopefully Quinns contribution is holding the clip board. So that leaves us with about 8 of Phils draft picks seeing regular time. Quote: Edwards and Pool are starters on our team, Warren has been traded to his third team and has never, ever played #3 overall talent. PERIOD. Edwards - #3 overall GW - #3 overall Both have had great games, both have had long periods where they have been invisible. As a whole, they've both performed at similar levels and both been regular starters. To say one is better or worse than the other I think is a stretch. Pool has yet to convince me. Our defense has after all given up 80+ points in two games and Palmer threw for 6 TD's while Rothlisberger threw for 4 TD's as I recall. That's not much of an endorsement of our safeties.

Re: Building Through the Draft Savage? Gift Horse #166286 09/17/07 01:41 PM
Joined: Sep 2006 Posts: 3,887 FreeAgent Hall of Famer
FreeAgent Hall of Famer Joined: Sep 2006 Posts: 3,887	It doesn't matter how you build the team as long as you build it. There really hasn't been a deep draft in recent years. Pool isn't blowing up any one's skirt at the moment but Sean Jones has look equally lost out there. Hopefully Baxter can return and provide that QB of the Defense that Russel was last year. Savage did a wonderful job this year in the draft. JT was the smart pick. But that pick also caused the free fall of Brady. Only a few teams after us needed a QB and they went for Flash. Ask Miami fans how that Teddy Ginn Jr. pick is looking now. You can't fault Savage for the injury to Bentley but can you imagine this line if he was healthy? The draft is not an exact science. Thinking you are going to have a perfect draft and get seven quality players in seven rounds is absurd. Second day draft picks are for the most part hit and miss with a lot more miss. But you need to realize those misses as quickley as possible and replace them with better players whether is through a different draft or FA. Savage has shown the ability to cut ties with busts where Botch wouldn't. Savage has missed a lot on day 2. But so has the other 31 teams in the leauge. I know the Wilson pick makes people scratch thier head at times but go back to last years draft and at the time it was unclear whether Braylon would be back in time for the season opener. If the draft was an exact science then teams wouldn't have passed on the likes of, Tom Brady (6th rounder), Willie Parker (UDFA), Lehigh Bodden (UDFA), ect..... I think, no offense, that you are just being over criticle. With the exception of Savages first draft he has gotten some real value and foundation for this team. I expect Braylon to have a big year and yesterday started it (hopefully) but the jury is still out on Pool. As always JMHO.

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