DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Will Mayfield work head enough to be great?

What makes someone qualified to be a head coach?

You can argue that a large percentage of coordinators are not qualified to be head coaches.

8 games as an OC where another coach developed the gameplan...he literally just called plays..lol

Yea I agree. I dunno bro. I’ve been hesitant to criticize Dorsey because man, this is the best collection of talent we ever had on this team, Atleast since that magical 07 season.

But I wish Dorsey would’ve Atleast told Freddie that he can be HC on the condition that he keeps the same playbook and scheme.

I guess the argument could be credibly made that with so many changes on offense, this is basically bakers true rookie season? Maybe a stretch I dunno, but I can see it possibly.

Oh, I agree with you.

I only posted it, because I had looked it up this morning, after hearing some Ravens fan on the radio ragging on all the other 2nd year QBs, while acting like Lamar was better than Brady.

Baker has regressed a lot this year. We just have to figure out why. You don't just get this bad suddenly, especially with additional weapons.

And our D didn't do us any favors either. The game got pretty out of hand quickly.

This team is still not ready to overcome adversity in a game. The opening TD run was a gut punch, but Calloways drop for an INT, was the death knell.

Again, what makes someone qualified to be a head coach?

How many coordinators make terrible head coaches? If we had hired a long tenured coordinator to be a head coach and they weren't having success the narrative would be that just because someone is a good coordinator doesn't mean they'd be a good coach. Now that Freddie is up and down it's because we hired a guy with little experience who had never been a coordinator.

So again, what qualifies someone to be a head coach?

Everyone is just grasping at straws because they are upset.

Yea but how many HCs went from a runnings back coach, to OC with all of 8 games experience calling plays before getting a HC spot?

Atleast you can point out that the other HCs were coordinators for a couple seasons, or Atleast a FULL season, before getting the top position.

Can’t make that claim with kitchens.

I agree with that. Lets just hope we figure it out relatively quickly.

j/c

And on the other hand, how many OCs and DCs did we make HC, only to fail?

Not sure there is any secret formula. But I wish Freddie would focus more on the game a as whole and less on play calling duties.

I have to think that being the play caller is a bit of a distraction on game day, as your focus is all on getting the next play. When the D is on the Field, he has to be HC and can't be talking the offense to find out what they are seeing, and such.

Sure some guys can do it, but most of them also had years of experience at OC and had their own playbooks. No way Freddie created and has his playbook memorized well enough to pull this off. At least IMO.

I almost feel like those last 8 games of last season went to everyone's head, and everyone from Dorsey down to Baker felt that they could do whatever they wanted because they were now King Midas and everything they touched would turn to gold.

Baker feels he can just hold onto the ball and make home-run, Brett Farve type plays every single down because it worked at times last year.

Kitchens felt he could scrap the coaching staff and scheme, and bring in his own guys, because he was now the new Sean McVay. He could turn Baker and the offense into the new Greatest Show on Turf and now call a vertical passing game because everything he did last year worked.

Dorsey felt he was a personnel genius, and that we could trade away a top guard in the league to make way for the guy that he drafted in Corbett. He could pick up some random lineman to fill in because he pulled off magic last year. We could also blow up the coaching staff that had actually worked because we had the one guy that was calling the right plays and everything else would fall into place perfectly, because we all knew what we were doing.

It's two-fold, IMO.

He isn't being put in the best situations to succeed like he was last year, for starters, but he also hasn't taken much of the expected leap forward from the rookie season, either.


I mean, it's kinda mind-boggling, really.... how can we all see that we're not doing the things that helped him be successful last year, yet we continue to not help him be successful this year?

I mean, it HAS to be deliberate, right? Is it stubbornness? Is it blindly sticking to a plan to force him through growing pains, results be damned? Is it just utter stupidity because you can't accept that results are all that matter?



We haven't had a team this talented since the early 1990's, yet we're as bad as we've ever been since The Return.


These players like to call out "Dawg Check" like they're part of that history and have earned co-opting it, but when I hear it all I hear is "Dawg Crap" because that's what they put on the field.

It almost seemed to me that this week Freddie used some of the things that worked last week combined with some of the things that weren't working before. That is until we were behind late in the game. He did have two TE's on the field some when we were still in the game early.

I agree ... it seemed like Freddie felt like “Okay, now it’s time to gradually build us back up from last week to where I eventually want us to be” ... and again we failed. IMO, we gotta stick with the EASY stuff (for us) for a while here

and he should be doing that, IMO, but he's gotta get something going, first. Each game is new... get things rolling with what you do well, THEN mix in the stuff you're trying to grow into.

Trying to throw new stuff into a cold situation isn't going to do you any favors, ever.

I have noticed when Baker rolls out, he never runs the ball. The defensive backs fall back into coverage, knowing he will not run. Last year they came up to meet him and he found targets downfield. He needs to run some on those scramble situations to keep the defenses honest.

the biggest failure in this whole thing is dorsey not making Kitchens have a playcaller. If you're trying to make it easy and help a young HC out then you keep him from tripping over the biggest obstacle they have...ego. If freddie demanded that be a condition to be coach..then we have the wrong HC and GM at this point

That and last year he was effective on the run..he threw some lasers on the run last year..this year when i see him run and throw i already know its going out of bound

I mentioned this in the Game Day thread, but I think it was about the third or so drive into the game. We started feeding Chubb. He ran off a couple of decent runs and got one or two first downs. We might of run a short pass or screen or something, and then another run, and we had ourselves a third and short. I was thinking, "Okay, finally, we're getting back to what was working before and building a drive here ..." But then on 3rd down, we go empty-freaking-backfield, Baker takes a deep drop, the receivers run off the screen, and we take a sack for a loss. Drive over.

Just when we would start getting momentum, something would happen. We'd take a penalty that ended up putting us in 3rd and not managable, and we'd revert to chucking the ball. I get that you don't have a ton of flexibility on 3rd and 6+, but still.

"I mean, it HAS to be deliberate, right? Is it stubbornness? Is it blindly sticking to a plan to force him through growing pains, results be damned? Is it just utter stupidity because you can't accept that results are all that matter?"

And that's where the "WHY?" comes into play.

It is mind boggling how inept we look with all this talent.

IMO barring a miracle, Mayfield is finished.

Mayfield is 24 years old. what you see now is what he is always going to be. Mayfield has gotten by his entire high school and college career on "pure athletic ability" in this case his arm. He was able to overcome his height issues just based on his arm.

In the NFL however, you can't succeed on just pure athletic talent. Big Ben, Brady, Brees, Rivers, Mahomes, etc...they get by because they are students of the game and do nothing but study.

I doubt Mayfield is willing to sit down and put in the time it takes to become a master. Being selected to play in the NFL at all, let alone being the #1 overall pick in the draft is a HUGE honor, but Mayfield is entitled. He is an entitled, self serving, self centered, egotistical little punk. He hasn't grown up one bit from college.

I knew we had a problem brewing by the way he disrespected Hue Jackson. It was wrong period. We fired Jackson, Jackson wanted to work in the NFL, so Cincy hired him, there was no call whatsoever for Mayfield to be such an idiot towards him.

The Browns of course will stick with Mayfield two years longer than they should of course, but when its all set and done, he will be worse than Couch.

Mayfield would have to do a complete 180 and literally spend the entire offseason doing nothing outside of 2 weeks of vacation studying film, throwing footballs, working with people, etc and giving up his public appearance attention seeking ways. I don't think he will do that, and its for that reason alone he will not succeed. Im sure his wife Emily Wilkinson is a good girl, but her entire career is based on attention, public appearances, and Instagram...thats incompatible with what it takes to be a great NFL QB

You don't see Brady, Brees, Mahomes, Rivers, Ben making all those public appearances...it requires sacrifice to be a great NFL QB and I don't think Baker will do that nor does he appreciate the honor he has been given.

well, that's a might premature.

Why bring his wife into it? Geesh. LOL

There are many on this board, yourself included, that dislike a player so much that they actually end up rooting against their own team. You want Baker to fail because you don't like him. And there are others on this board that want the same. But when you root for guys to fail you are rooting against your team. I think guys like you are are bigger fans of yourself and your opinions than you are Browns fans.

It's sad.

I’m not insulting his wife. On the contrary I said I bet she is a good person. She defends Mayfield on Twitter. I wouldn’t think of insulting his wife. She seems like a genuinely good person.

That being said her career is being an Instagram Model/Influencer, which means her entire career is based on looking good as a model and public appearances. This is going to make it very hard for Mayfield to do what he needs to do to be great as an NFL QB. Have you seen his wife? I don’t blame him one bit for going to every social thing she does. No way you wave that unattended! She is smoking!

I don’t think that lifestyle is compatible with being a great NFL QB. None of the other great QB since 1995 have had that kinda lifestyle. I’ll be very surprised if Mayfield succeeds for this reason. Just showing up at camp, ota, watching film in berea during camp just isn’t enough to succeed in this league.

Mayfield has always been successful because of his talent but now that talent isn’t enough.

I’d love nothing more than for him to prove me wrong and succeed, but being good nfl an isn’t easy and it’s not like college. He has all the tools but he has to want it and maybe this year will humble him enough that he will put in the time together better and nothing would make me happier

Uh, Tom Brady is married to Giselle freaking Bündchen.

so having an attractive wife keeps mayfield from being a good QB. can't believe you said that

good god. it never is a surprise as to why women are ticked off about how they're perceived and/or treated in society and in the workplace.

this is along the same line of thinking when guys say attractive women makes them unfocused in the workplace. if a woman's appearance keeps you from being the best version of yourself, it aint the woman that's the problem.

this is completely out of line.

Shhhhh... doesn't fit the narrative.

What makes someone qualified? How about having been a HC before... on any level? We could have hired BA. He had been a HC before. He knew what he was getting in to and he also stated he WANTED to come here and would keep Kitchens as the OC if possible. We could have hired Mike McCarthy. He has a Super Bowl ring and a ton of playoff experience. That is two HC's right off the bat with experience. There were plenty of other choices as well. We could have kept Williams. He showed he could at least hold the guys accountable and instill some discipline. We weren't the most penalized team in the league under him... There were a LOT of other choices. Dorsey chose FK. So now it is what it is. Either he gets it together soon or the coaching search will begin again. I don't see them giving him years on end to figure it out. This team has a ton of talent but lack any discipline at all. WAY too many penalties. I blame the Kitchens "we don't practice penalties" BS. Every team has refs come in and get the guys ready by calling penalties. Not us boy. Can't do that. Let's just wing it and hope.

How in the world can you take what I said this way? You have to be kidding me.

It has NOTHING to do with how attractive she is, it has EVERYTHING to do with what she does for a living!

She is an Instagram Model/Influencer. Her entire career is based on:

1. Attention
2. Public Appearances
3. Modeling

There is a HUGE difference between Gisele Bunchen and Emily Wilkenson. Gisele has a manager that does 99% of her stuff for her, Gisele picks and chooses what she wants to attend, what she wants to model, and everything is done on her terms. Gisele doesn't have to go make all these public appearances and garner attention like Emily does.

Gisele is "the face that runs the place" Wilkinson is just trying to get in "the place".

Point is Mayfield needs to be going with her to these public outings because she is his wife that's what a husband is supposed to do. We all know guys will creep on your wife if your not around, people are not perfect. The biggest causes of marriage failing is money problems and not spending enough time together and communication. Mayfield better be spending as much time as he can with his wife, its whats best for him in his personal life. You don't think it don't take time away from football study to do all this kinda stuff? hmm?

Its absurd that anyone would think having an attractive wife would keep Mayfield from being great. Diverging careers can and will derail things not only for Mayfield, but for anyone. Look how many Hollywood stars fall apart because of diverging career directions.

However, Im done. careers can be counterproductive to each other...attractiveness doesn't have to be the deciding factor in everything. I wondered how long it would take for someone to bring it up, didn't take long.

Oh and one last thing, Mayfield is doing right supporting his wife in her career. He should be going and doing these things with her, helping her, etc. Infact being a good husband is more important that being a good football player.

If Mayfield was smart, he would retire in a year or two and do something else. He could excel in a lot of other things and be happier to boot with his wife, start a family, and not have to deal with CTE and injuries. If push comes to shove his wife should always come before the NFL or he is a fool.

Surely you understand why some folks are a bit skeptical when you suggest that the biggest determining factor in whether Baker Mayfield thrives or not is his wife's career as an instagram model/influencer... which literally means she can work whenever and wherever she wants... and she doesn't really need the money.

Wow. Just wow. The miracle would be that you're actually right.

You certainly are an expert on all subjects, aren't you?

Mayfield broke the rookie record last year... There is nothing wrong with him that can't be fixed. But I'm not sure the current coaching staff has the answers he needs.

I think you are an honest poster and I don't think you are one of the people blaming the coaching for Baker's issues, so I will try to answer your question.

Baker struggled after D's got an idea about him when Haley was calling the shots. Freddie came in and made some dramatic changes. He went w/a ton of 12, 13, 21, and even 22 personnel. He cut the field in half and asked Baker to just read half the field. The main emphasis was on making one read and throwing it. That worked well, but we still saw Baker struggle at times when the first read wasn't open.

This year, the expectations were that Baker was going to be asked to handle a regular load, just like almost all NFL qbs. He is clearly struggling w/reading the post-snap coverage and teams have had time to figure him out.

Take away the right side of the field. Get pressure up the middle. Disguise the coverage. And make him go through his progressions quickly. He is getting rattled [just like Bosa said in his post-game interview] and he is making poor decisions, leaving the pocket when he should not, and losing accuracy because he is not comfortable.

I know the game and I know what I see. Also, others who played/coached in the league are saying the same stuff.

I will not get into it w/the usual suspects who will try and make this a personal battle, but if anyone w/an open mind wants to discuss what we/he should do moving forward, I will gladly try and discuss that. I don't have all the answers. I am not as knowledgeable as our coaching staff, but I have some experience and would love to have an honest discussion w/out all the personality crap.

I would bet Baker is pretty close to being brought back down to reality.

Hopefully, he gets himself a lunchpail and hard hat attitude witch duct tape on his lips in the media and continues to be a loud chatty sob of the field and in the locker room.

most everything he is doing wrong he can fix.

Right now.. every NFL team has his number circled and wants to beat him into submission and teach him a lesson. HOPEFULLY- it won't cause permanent damage.

I like the kid, I like his passion. I think he did too much in the offseason that wasn't football related and it is biting him in the back. I am looking forward to seeing how he remakes himself in year 3.

A simple wrong would have done just fine, but

I was pretty sure that my previous post would not draw much conversation, but for those who are interested, check this link out. It's from Next Gen Stats and it charts all of Baker's throws for each game this season. You may note that early on he was throwing all over the field and in recent weeks, his throws are either are pretty much being dominated to one side of the field.

I get that people don't want to hear it when I --and people who have played/coached the game --say he is a one-read qb who struggles reading coverages, but I think the evidence is starting to pile up.

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/list/type/team/2019/week

here is 2018

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/player/2018/baker-mayfield/MAY483453/2018/all/qb-grid

There was a poster who challenged you on this statement. He said something about how Allen has a much better coach than Baker does and how the previous FO wanted him as our HC.

Just to set the record straight, Sean McDermontt has not been a QB coach, an Offensive Coordinator, an Offensive Guru, etc. He was a defensive coach, who was a Defensive Quality Control coach, a LBer coach, and a Defensive Coordinator. More made-up crap.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_McDermott